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Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

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tas8831

Well-Known Member
I'm here for rational discussion, about SCIENCE. I am very familiar with the topic, and have vaid insights and perspective.
No, you really are not.
You do not even seem to grasp basic definitions.
I can expose fallavies, and address science, but thos is just a discussion forum.
From what I have seen, you label things that are not fallacies as fallacies as an excuse to avoid having to admit your errors..
And other than telling never-changing stories, I have not seen you address any science. Ignoring it, dismissing it, placing evidence-free arbitrary restrictions on it, is not addressing it in any educated way.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
no wonder you misunderstand me

That God is the Creator doesn't mean my method of saying so is like other creationists

God did it

science displays ...how

and where science has yet to uncover His technique
does not lean to …...no god

Science doesn't say anything about any god as to HOW nature works.

If God is indeed part of natural process of nature or of life, then then God has to be falsifiable too...and the fact is God isn't falsifiable, so your premise that "God did it" isn't logical or scientific.

Do you even understand the concept of falsifiability or falsification?

Falsifiable mean that any statement made, can eventually be tested, and the only way to test any premise - scientifically - is through EMPIRICAL and VERIFIABLE EVIDENCES!

The evidence must meet the following criteria:
  1. observable or detectable
  2. measurable
  3. quantifiable
  4. verifiable
  5. testable
Any combination of the above, or all of the above, will demonstrate if the statement made are TRUE or FALSE.

The whole purpose of testing in science, is not only to prove a theory, hypothesis or model to be true, via evidences, but it is just important to disprove it as false.

Refuting a hypothesis is important factor in science and falsification.

In the above list of criteria, God cannot meet any of them. You cannot observe or detect God. You cannot measure God. You cannot quantify God. And you cannot verify or test God. Having failing all these criteria, this make God and "God did it", unfalsifiable.

The only thing you have demonstrated to me, is that you are superstitious person, that's all. And more so, you don't understand how science works, so you make up thing that's not true.

The problem is that you don’t want to understand some of the basic knowledge and process in science, by skipping the whole testings and evidences with “God did it”, which explain absolutely nothing.

The following questions you don’t need to answer

What is science? Science is knowledge.

What is that scientific knowledge? Knowledge that comes with detailed explanation on WHAT things are and HOW do they work.

How does one know the validity or invalidity of the knowledge? Through evidences and testing in the form of verifiable observations and experiments.​

Scriptures, such as the Bible and the Qur’an, failed the last 2 questions, which incidentally mean it failed question 1, because religion isn’t science.

Nothing about any scriptures provide a testable knowledge about god, because god cannot be tested because he or she most likely don’t exist.

Deity only exist in the imagination and on faith-based belief, not evidences. And if there were evidences for a god, then faith wouldn’t be needed.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
well gosh and gee willickers……..

I thought any length of dna is of such great length and complexity...…

only God can do it

No, geeeee wilickers! . . based on the objective verifiable evidence science has falsified and demonstrated that the laws of nature, natural processes, and natural environments are sufficient to explain the sciences of abiogenesis and evolution There are of course, unanswered questions concerning abiogenesis, but there is no other alternative scientific explanations based on the evidence.

Vague anecdotal arguments of ignorance based on a religious agenda are not sufficient to question science.

@usfan and you have to deal with the objective verifiable evidence that life is billions of years old on earth and our universe is over 13 billion years old. The same science that makes computers work and falsifies the science of evolution.
 
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usfan

Well-Known Member
One could say "ignorance." One could call it "desperation"...
Or, one could call it bluffing. ..pretended knowledge, masked in middle school snarkiness, knowing.. COUNTING ON, using pissy language so i will ignore the posts.

You are afraid for me to examine and rebut your posts, so are sure to include lots of demeaning, heckling ad hom, knowing i will pass over it.

It is effective. You can pretend i am afraid of your brilliance, when all I'm doing is ignoring a heckler. :shrug: ..You then get unlimited propaganda broadcasts, with nobody to scrutinize your bluffs.

You certainly display sound scientific thinking with the juvenile displays of snarkiness and ridicule. :rolleyes:
I can only conclude you don't want to debate the science, just fling poo with the other hominids in your troupe.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
@usfan and you have to deal with the objective verifiable evidence that life is billions of years old on earth and our universe is over 13 billion years old. The same science that makes computers work and falsifies the science of evolution
ROFL!!

:facepalm:

.progressive indoctrinees.. :rolleyes:

The absurd talking points you are indoctrinated with just exposes you as an ideologue, not a thinking, scientific minded person..

'Objective, verifiable evidence..' lol!
'Computers, therefore, Evolution!'

Hilarious!

Be sure to include lots of righteous indignation, with the parroted talking points.. that way, there is no doubt! :D
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
ROFL!!

:facepalm:

.progressive indoctrinees.. :rolleyes:

The absurd talking points you are indoctrinated with just exposes you as an ideologue, not a thinking, scientific minded person..

'Objective, verifiable evidence..' lol!
'Computers, therefore, Evolution!'

Hilarious!

Be sure to include lots of righteous indignation, with the parroted talking points.. that way, there is no doubt! :D
Not a coherent response.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Nice deflection, but this is about scientific evidence. Got any?

'God did it!', or 'Evolution did it!' are both assertions of belief. This thread is about science.. specifically, the scientific evidence for common descent.

Distracting with caricatures of other's beliefs does not provide evidence for your own.

So, who is ignoring the scientific evidence? It seems to me that the rabid evolutionists here do that.. page after page of assertions, deflections, straw men caricatures, poisoning the well, and the most favorite fallacy: ad hominem. But very little has been posted regarding evidence for this belief about human origins.
The evidence which you ignore to address has been given. Humans are animals and have the same genetics thus the ability to evolve. It seems you 40 year career of disparaging evolution has all been about your opinion and no substance. You have apparently learned nothing during that long history and unless you have evidence to support your opinion then you argument has become meaningless.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
ROFL!!

:facepalm:

.progressive indoctrinees.. :rolleyes:

The absurd talking points you are indoctrinated with just exposes you as an ideologue, not a thinking, scientific minded person..

'Objective, verifiable evidence..' lol!
'Computers, therefore, Evolution!'

Hilarious!

Be sure to include lots of righteous indignation, with the parroted talking points.. that way, there is no doubt! :D
You still rant without substance. You criticize without understanding. Approach the evidence appropriately and give your evidence or at least admit you have none and you will never accept any evidence for evolution no mater what it is - at least that would be honest.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Ok, as promised, i will examine this article, based on statistical analysis.

From the article:

In the 19th century, Charles Darwin went beyond others, who had proposed that there might be a common ancestor for all mammals or animals, and suggested that there was likely a common ancestor for all life on the planet—plant, animal and bacterial.
A new statistical analysis takes this assumption to the bench and finds that it not only holds water but indeed is overwhelmingly sound.

This is an article in a magazine about a statistical study of dna. It is a computer analysis, set up to measure probability based on assumptions of common descent.

Theobald was able to run rigorous statistical analyses on the amino acid sequences in 23 universally conserved proteins across the three major divisions of life (eukaryotes, bacteria and archaea). By plugging these sequences into various relational and evolutionary models,

What is being done here, is entering data from amino acid sequences into a computer model.. a program based on the assumption of descent. They project evolutionary sequences, to draw a conclusion of probability.

he found that a universal common ancestor is at least 10^2,860 more likely to have produced the modern-day protein sequence variances

Probability cannot be measured, statistically, unless you have assumptions about the data. By assuming common descent, and projecting from the simplest sequences (assumed to be the earliest in the tree of life) to the later, more complex ones, a figure can be calculated, to project probability. Details about the data and calculations are omitted.

He ran various statistical evolutionary models, including ones that took horizontal gene transfer into consideration and others that did not. And the models that accounted for horizontal gene transfer ended up providing the most statistical support for a universal common ancestor
.

Points about this article:
1. The data, parameters, and assumptions for each computer model are not revealed or defined.

2. Conclusions ABOUT the study are trumpeted, but not the actual data and methods of calculations.

3. Flawed assumptions, that apply circular reasoning, using the premise to prove the conclusion, are present.
From the journalist:

Microbiologists have gained a better understanding of genetic behavior of simple life forms, which can be much more amorphous than the typical, vertical transfer of genes from one generation to the next

This is asserted, but is an assumption that contradicts itself.. the vagaries of 'amorphous transfer of genes', is not established, is unevidenced, and assumed.

With horizontal gene transfers, genetic signatures can move swiftly between branches, quickly turning a traditional tree into a tangled web.

This is assumed and unevidenced. It is a conjecture based on the assumption of common descent. No actual data or studies have DEMONSTRATED the belief in 'horizontal gene transfer', which insinuates the 'tangled web', i.e., that genes flow easily between phylogenetic types, plugging into any organism equally. Attempts have been made for over a century, to show, by experimentation, that organisms can move from one genotype to another, without sucess.

4. The flawed conclusions by journalists, and those promoting the belief in common descent override any scrutiny as to what this study actually shows.

5. Computer models can be programmed to generate a desired outcome, and are not empirical, especially when dealing with something as vague as 'probability!'

6. The article is a cheerleading piece, singing the praises for common descent, and glossing over what was actually done, leaving it to the imagination and wishful thinking of True Believers to see, 'Evidence!', in a contrived computer model that shows probability, if you assume common descent.

7. The desperation of the True Believers, to see this as 'Evidence!', is a tragic commentary on the decline of critical thinking and skepticism. This is not evidence of anything, except the creative ability of man to deceive himself, with smoke and mirrors. There is NO EVIDENCE of 'new!' genes, chromosomes, genomic structures, or anything resembling common descent. It is conjecture and assumptions, trumpeted as 'proof!'

How is this evidence of common descent? Did anyone actually read it, with scientific scrutiny? Is confirmation bias the only thing needed to see 'proof!', in these studies?

Please cite the specific article Theobald, because you have to be careful selective citing Theobald. Theobald believe in evolution and did not support a Biblical Creationist argument.

From: Douglas Theobald

Response to ID/creationist proposal: Douglas Theobald, University of Colorado at Boulder

Douglas L. Theobald, Ph.D.
American Cancer Society Postdoctoral Fellow
www.cancer.org
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry
University of Colorado at Boulder
Boulder, CO 80309-0215

I am a molecular biologist researching the causes of cancer at the molecular level. Evolutionary biology is fundamental to biology in general and is essential to understanding the genetic and molecular causes of human diseases, including cancer and viral, bacterial, environmental, and inherited diseases. The Proposed Revisions to the Science Standards significantly weaken the ability of students to learn real evolutionary theory, due to the many serious and fundamental scientific inaccuracies proposed in these Revisions.

These Revisions have been formulated by IDNet, a political “think tank” advocating the pseudoscientific concept of “intelligent design” (ID). While I personally believe that the universe was designed by an intelligence, the current ID political movement has no scientific credibility. ID proponents distort scientific knowledge by claiming that contemporary evolutionary theory cannot explain the diversity of life. So far, the ID movement has failed to provide any scientific evidence to support their claims. ID proponents have never published any original research in peer-reviewed scientific journals providing evidence for ID. Most importantly, ID adherents have not proposed any scientific tests for their claims. ID is therefore rejected by the vast majority of active scientific researchers in the life sciences, not because of any philosophical or religious bias, but rather because ID currently has no scientific support or utility whatsoever.

In the following I will step through the seven major revisions given in the Summary of Proposed Revisions (p. 1), explaining the errors in each one with reference to the main text of the revisions.

1b) The Revisers want to “use an evidence based rather than a naturalistic definition of science.” However, in science “naturalistic” just means is “based on evidence”, so this revision is confusing and misleading. If an idea can be tested against evidence, it is natural and it is scientific. If the idea can’t be tested then it’s not science, it’s philosophy. In their explanation for this change, the Revisers make a big deal out of “methodological naturalism”, making grandiose claims that it assumes that “design conceptions of nature are invalid” and that it leads to the belief that “life … is the result of an unguided, purposeless natural process.” Methodological naturalism does nothing of the sort. The Revisers ignore the fact that many scientific disciplines use design to explain certain phenomena naturalistically, such as archaeology and criminal forensics.

Most importantly, the Revisers make a huge blunder in confusing methodological naturalism (which is how real science is practiced) with metaphysical naturalism (which is an atheistic philosophy). Using methodological naturalism does not entail a belief in metaphysical naturalism. Everybody uses methodological naturalism all the time in their everyday lives, regardless of whether they are theists, agnostics, or atheists. For instance, you use methodological naturalism when you figure out why your car doesn’t run well or why the light doesn’t turn on when you flick the light switch. When the light doesn’t turn on, we don’t consider the possibility that a ghost blew it out, rather we perform a test of the hypothesis that the filament in the bulb burned up (usually by looking at the bulb and replacing it with a new one). If the light bulb is missing, we might consider the hypothesis that somebody removed it, which is hardly supernatural, it is a natural cause. It should be clear that I can ignore ghosts and fairies while figuring out what’s wrong with the light bulb and at the same time believe that life is guided and purposeful.

The only people I know of who consistently confuse methodological and metaphysical naturalism are proselytizing fundamentalists and atheists. I am neither one, but unlike the Revisers, I do understand a little basic philosophy.

Even if the Revisers were correct about methodological naturalism (which they are not), would it matter? If the purpose is to teach real science in a science class, as practiced by real scientists, then we should teach that, shouldn’t we? The Revisers want to teach their own pet philosophy about how they wish science would be performed -- instead of teaching how science really is. Pretending that science is something it is not, and teaching impressionable students that the scientific method includes supernatural explanations, is not only unfair and erroneous, it is a insidious form of deception.

1d) (p. 6) Proposed change: “Although science proposes theories to explain changes, the actual causes of many changes are currently unknown (e.g. the origin of the universe, the origin of fundamental laws, the origin of life and the genetic code, the origin of major body plans during the Cambrian explosion, etc.). ”

Much of this is just false – the causes of several of these (or parts of these) are known in science. For instance, the Big Bang as the origin of the universe in a singularity, the cause of electromagnetic forces, and much is known about the origin and evolution of major body plans before, during, and after Cambrian times (the term “Cambrian explosion” is a bit outdated and biased since the “explosion” occurred over dozens of millions of years).

2) (p. 7) Proposed change “Biological evolution theorizes that …”

Only people theorize, biological evolution theorizes nothing. The Revisers explain in the Summary that their “addition makes it clear that evolution is a theory, and not a fact.” This is false and is fundamentalist nonsense, a code phrase that Creationists have used historically as justification for their religiously motivated opposition to evolution. Evolution is both a scientific theory and a scientific fact. Many non-scientists use the informal, non-technical definition of 'theory', which is basically equivalent to 'some random guess'. In science, however, a theory is the end-all-be-all scientific statement, the end product of the scientific method. Technically it is "only a theory" that the earth is round, that the earth circles the Sun every year, that X-rays cause mutations, that DNA molecules carry genetic information, that HIV causes AIDS, that fusion of hydrogen to helium powers the Sun, etc. But it is just as valid to call each of these 'scientific facts'. Claiming that evolutionary biology is “a theory, and not a fact” only confuses students and muddies the correct usage of scientific terms."

The rest of his article is a point by point objection and condemnation of Fundamentalist Christian view against science.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
Please cite the specific article Theobald, because you have to be careful selective citing Theobald.
:facepalm:
Really? You're going to nitpick me about my reply to an article YOU posted? YOU gave the link, and i dutifully read it, and reviewed what was said.. and now you're criticizing me for 'Ignoring!' what somebody else said?

Look, i realize, dealing with hostile True Believers, you look for everything and anything to pounce on for a 'gotcha!' moment, and to expose me as the lying, sneaky, evil enemy of humanity that you believe me to be. But c'mon.. this is too much.. :rolleyes:
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry that I have to be the one to tell you that no one here cares about your critique of scientific studies.
Obviously. But i offer them as a critical examination of the mandated, indoctrinated belief in common descent.
Skepticism and critical thinking are cornerstones of science. Dutifully believing Indoctrination is for compliant bobbleheads.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
:facepalm:
Really? You're going to nitpick me about my reply to an article YOU posted? YOU gave the link, and i dutifully read it, and reviewed what was said.. and now you're criticizing me for 'Ignoring!' what somebody else said?

Look, i realize, dealing with hostile True Believers, you look for everything and anything to pounce on for a 'gotcha!' moment, and to expose me as the lying, sneaky, evil enemy of humanity that you believe me to be. But c'mon.. this is too much.. :rolleyes:

No coherent answer . Incomplete reference, without citation.. .

Still wating . . .
 
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usfan

Well-Known Member
There are volumes of scientific journals and associated research and evidence, which you reject of the basis on your religious agenda. You designate yourself as 'Biblical Christian,' and that is enough to establish the basis of you agenda and not science.
So much fallacy.. :facepalm:
1. Post ONE. I'll look at it. I examined your journalistic fluff piece in detail, yet you still attack me with righteous indignation and outrage..
2. My BELIEFS about the existential nature of the universe are irrelevant. This is about scientific evidence for common descent.
3. My agenda is to have a scientific debate. Unfortunately, i have mostly hecklers and ideologues, outraged that anyone dares to question the sacred tenets of their faith..

YOUR agenda, it seems, is the pathetic, 'Atheists vs Christians!' ..:eek:.. flame war.. :rolleyes:

'Blasphemer!'.. 'Kill the infidel!!' ...:eek:
The evidence which you ignore to address has been given.
E.coli? Fluff pieces from journalists cheering computer models?
No, i dutifully examine even the most inane bits of 'evidence' presented, and only 'Ignore!!' (Lying Fool!! ..:mad:.. Blasphemer!!).. the ones dripping with ad hom and ridicule. i will not give them the credibility of response. That is the tactic.. flood the thread with hysterical deflections, poisoning the well, and more ad hominem than you can even note. ..anything but science.. :shrug:

I have only my scientific mind, training, and experience, to shrug off the barrages of UNSCIENTIFIC personal attacks.
You still rant without substance. You criticize without understanding. Approach the evidence appropriately and give your evidence or at least admit you have none and you will never accept any evidence for evolution no mater what it is - at least that would be honest.
I look at the evidence. Present it, if you can, if it is so plentiful and compelling.

I believe you guys are (rightfully) afraid of me. I dispassionately examine everything you produce, and expose it as wishful thinking and belief. You have NOTHING, as valid scientific evidence for your religious belief in common descent.

If you had ANY evidence, you'd present it in a civil, scientific manner, not under pretense.. shrouded in the ravings of jihadist ideologues..

My offer stands:

1. Provide ONE bit of evidence, supported by a link, if desired, or referencing a study.
2. Make your point, clearly showing HOW it supports the theory of common descent.
3. I will review the evidence, and provide additional perspective, if warranted.
4. You can then refute or reply to my rebuttal, and a civil examination of a scientific theory can take place.


But page after page of indignant hecklers and jihadist ideologues, afraid to debate the science, and hell bent on disruption, is not a scientific discussion.. it's not even a philosophical discussion. I can only point out the irrational, unscientific practices of the propagandists and ideologues.
:shrug:
 
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