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The Folly of Atheism

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
OK. So what have you done to independently investigate the truth? You do that by using logic, reason, by finding independent and objective evidence backing it up, by independently and objectively corroborating the information, seeing if the information is falsifiable, isn't self-contradictory, checking that the information also is the same as information that comes from other sources that are independently and objectively confirmed to be reliable etc etc. So exactly what kind of independent investigation have you done to confirm that this Baha'u'llah is telling the truth? The first contradiction I can see is that you say that you believe what they write but they write that you're not supposed to believe in dogmas and doctrines but investigate for yourself. How do you combine those?
I have read everything I could lay my hands on and I have applied logic and reason to what I read. That is what independent investigation of truth is. I have read opposing views as well.

The Baha'i Faith has a theology of progressive revelation but we have no dogmas or doctrines like Christianity and other religions of the past. We live according to the Writings of Baha'u'llah and His appointed interpreters Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. The Baha'i Faith administration did not construct man-made dogmas or doctrines from what they wrote.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
That is true, logically speaking, since there is no proof that God exists.

But atheists could also be wrong and if they are wrong there are consequences.

What are the consequences to believers if they are wrong?
Completely unknown, since you'd first have to know exactly what exists and what consequences there are for belief or lack of belief.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
I really do not appreciate atheists who lump all believers into a category and say they are not logical or rational, implying that atheists are. That is just not true.
That is a good point. Only those believers who believe stuff based on nothing but personal experiences or "feelings" or "faith" or indoctrination or brainwashing or ancient or modern scriptures or religious "authorities" or upbringing etc should be in that category. Those who have thoroughly studied all the religions and sects and cults and gods and the scientific explanations for why we believe in gods and religions to begin with and still have made an informed decision to believe in the existence of one or more gods should be respected at least for their effort. This is an interesting article. The Origins of Religion: How Supernatural Beliefs Evolved
What I have seen in my many dealings with atheists is that they are neither rational nor logical in what they expect a God to be or do and they are constantly committing many fallacies such as the fallacy of hasty generalization and the fallacy of jumping to conclusions, assuming all religions are the same, and assuming that just because most Messengers were false all Messengers are false. The number of logical fallacies are too numerous to even mention.
So true. All theists and religions seem to have their own personal version of God and they all contradict each other showing that we are not dealing with an actual entity here but just how different people are imagining one. Every time an atheist points out something wrong a theist can just say "Oh no, that's not the God I believe in!" An atheist always has to address the God the particular person believes in. It's a nightmare, I can tell you...
My religion rang true to me over 48 years ago when I first heard of it and at that time I read as many books as I could get my hands on and I read other books that had been written about it. That is how I investigated it. I did not need to cross check it with other religions to know it was the truth.
So you brainwashed yourself by just feeding yourself information from one source?
Now, many years later, I find that it is logical, rational, makes sense, has a lot of evidence backing it up,isn't self-contradictory, contains verifiable information, and the information is confirmed to be original and not just copied from suspect sources.
Excellent! Now it's getting interesting! Make a detailed list of the information that has been confirmed to be accurate along with the corroborating evidence from other independent neutral objective sources! That would be useful and actually get us somewhere!
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
All theists and religions seem to have their own personal version of God and they all contradict each other showing that we are not dealing with an actual entity here but just how different people are imagining one.
This is a very flawed conclusion, based on misinformation.

1. I dispute that 'All theists have their own personal version of God!' :eek:.. they do not. The basic IDEA of God is uniformly homogeneous among MOST theists. Omniscient. Omnipresent. Omnipotence. Creator. Merciful. Holy. Pure. There may be minor nuances, or differences in perception (see 'Blind Men & Elephant story), but the BASIC CONCEPT of the Almighty is consistent throughout the human experience.
2. This HUMAN CONSENSUS, of a Supreme Being, able to create the cosmos, is universal, consistent, and spans culture, race, region, and time. That UNIVERSAL perception of a Supreme Being, is a major evidence of His existence.
3. The historical, minute minority of atheists, throughout human history, reveals them as outliers and aberrations among the human perceptions about the nature of the universe.
4. The intensity and dedication to atheistic propaganda is a more credible explanation for the recent growth of atheism among humanity. AND, even with the thorough and constant propaganda from institutions dedicated to atheistic naturalism, the number of those who embrace atheism are still a minority.. a small minority.. among the perceptions in humanity.
5. The loud, vocal, and militant atheists, that are so common on discussion forums, delude themselves (and anyone who will listen!) into pretending atheism is a mainstream worldview.

But i will admit that the Narrative, 'So many gods!!' :eek:.. is a popular deflection among atheists and their enablers, to justify the folly & madness of denying what the great majority of human beings throughout history have known, intuitively:

There is a God and Spiritual Reality. Someday you will meet your Maker.
 
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usfan

Well-Known Member
Because of ignorant Christian people like you pretending to know what they're talking about intentionally spreading misinformation about atheism and atheists. You are ruining it for all Christians.
Ah, good example of atheistic folly! :D

Just trying to define atheism generates righteous indignation, and religious hysteria from the True Believers, among the atheistic faithful..

So, a simple definition of 'atheism', incites you to lash out with, 'Blasphemy!' 'Fool & Liar!', types of melodrama responses.

This is another good example of atheistic folly.. good illustration. Detached discussion of philosophical concepts is impossible, with progressive indoctrinees. They personalize and take grievous offence for any examination or criticism of their beliefs. They will mock and ridicule other's beliefs with demeaning caricatures, but no definitions are even allowed for THEIR beliefs, which must remain shrouded in the Holy of Holies of Irrational Ambiguity..

:D

Usfan..brother!
Why do you always disturb ‘The Sleep’.
Let them Sleep in Peace.
Well, if 'Christianity!' ..:eek:.. ..can be subject to scrutiny, skepticism, psychoanalysis, and rigorous examination, should not the main critics of Christianity receive equal treatment? ..more respectfully than what they dish out, but why not an examination of atheism, too?
Actually for me it's pretty simple:
I am hostile towards religious fundamentalism, especially Christian fundamentalism, because I consider it a threat to the well-being and future of humans, society, and myself.
I submit that this very common perception of 'Christianity!' ..:eek:.. ..is not based on objective reality, but demeaning propaganda, from a competing worldview. It is false caricatures, constantly pounded as propaganda memes, from anti-christian promoters of an anti-christian agenda.

There is only boogie men and scapegoats, demonized to smear Christianity as a positive worldview in the human experience.

The hostility and fearmongering is toward a strawman.. a caricature created by the competition. Since they control all the propaganda megaphones, their narratives become accepted Truth.. a successful propaganda campaign.
 

Skreeper

Member
I submit that this very common perception of 'Christianity!' ..:eek:.. ..is not based on objective reality, but demeaning propaganda, from a competing worldview. It is false caricatures, constantly pounded as propaganda memes, from anti-christian promoters of an anti-christian agenda.

There is only boogie men and scapegoats, demonized to smear Christianity as a positive worldview in the human experience.

The hostility and fearmongering is toward a strawman.. a caricature created by the competition. Since they control all the propaganda megaphones, their narratives become accepted Truth.. a successful propaganda campaign.

Right, it's only a strawman that the Christian right is pushing for making abortion illegal. It's only a strawman that the Christian right is pushing against gay marriage. It's only a strawman that the Christian right is pushing against established science like evolution or even basic things like vaccines.

This is not propaganda, this is reality.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
Right, it's only a strawman that the Christian right is pushing for making abortion illegal. It's only a strawman that the Christian right is pushing against gay marriage. It's only a strawman that the Christian right is pushing against established science like evolution or even basic things like vaccines.

This is not propaganda, this is reality.
No, it is a straw man. You have caricatured 'boogie men!' :eek:.. ..pumped up from constant propaganda, to fear monger and demonized the 'evil Christians!' :eek:.. 'who want to kill and oppress us all!!' ..:eek:..

Abortion is a social, moral issue, with beliefs across ideological spectrums. It is not an exclusively 'Christian' issue.
Same with homosexuality..
'Christians hate science!', is a phony propaganda meme. Human beings from all ideological spectrums engage in scientific inquiry.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Guys, I've put usfan on ignore and I just can't recommend it enough.

He's not interested in rational debate - only in pretending to be rational while never actually being open to changing his mind on anything. Any "debate" with him is a loaded game, designed to put himself at the top and anyone with any other perspective beneath him at all costs. If you present facts, he either ignores or distorts them. If you present an opposing view, he patronizes you. If you dare to accuse him of bias, he accuses you of ad hominems (a fallacy he still doesn't understand despite dozens of explanations to him).

Whenever he is demonstrated to be wrong, he will just pretend he hasn't and continue to assume control of the topic by shifting the goalposts. I've seen him do this tactic multiple times: avoiding admitting error by suddenly changing the topic of the original discussion. It's nothing but a shady lawyer's trick: the way to "win" a debate is not by having the best argument or even having the facts on your side - you win by being the one to determine the subject being debated. It's a tactic used by the alt-right and many other online groups who wish to create a self-serving narrative out of any so-called "debate", and it's something that impossible to reason with because their argument isn't about reason: it's about ego. It's about them being the "smart" one, and everyone who thinks any differently being "dumb" or "irrational" or "brainwashed". You'll never get through to them, because to admit that they were wrong or to change their mind on any issue would make them therefore "dumb", "irrational" or "brainwashed", and - above all else - that must be prevented at all costs. When I refused to let usfan control the narrative in the evolution thread, their mask slipped and they resorted to childish insinuations and personal attacks. Until they learn to take on board other people's arguments, and acknowledge faults in their own, they cannot meaningfully contribute to this forum.

These threads are just troll threads, designed to knowingly generate outrage and then point at the outrage and use it as further vindication of the OP's "totally rational" position. Please don't feed him. Just give him all the attention he deserves: none. When they have finally lost their audience and begin shouting into the lonely, unresponsive darkness, maybe then he will finally hear the echo of what he's saying and realize how incredibly irrational and ignorant their position is. At least, that's a possibility.

I sincerely believe usfan is a detriment to this forum. Just ignore them.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
Guys, I've put usfan on ignore and I just can't recommend it enough.

He's not interested in rational debate - only in pretending to be rational while never actually being open to changing his mind on anything. Any "debate" with him is a loaded game, designed to put himself at the top and anyone with any other perspective beneath him at all costs. If you present facts, he either ignores or distorts them. If you present an opposing view, he patronizes you. If you dare to accuse him of bias, he accuses you of ad hominems (a fallacy he still doesn't understand despite dozens of explanations to him).

Whenever he is demonstrated to be wrong, he will just pretend he hasn't and continue to assume control of the topic by shifting the goalposts. I've seen him do this tactic multiple times: avoiding admitting error by suddenly changing the topic of the original discussion. It's nothing but a shady lawyer's trick: the way to "win" a debate is not by having the best argument or even having the facts on your side - you win by being the one to determine the subject being debated. It's a tactic used by the alt-right and many other online groups who wish to create a self-serving narrative out of any so-called "debate", and it's something that impossible to reason with because their argument isn't about reason: it's about ego. It's about them being the "smart" one, and everyone who thinks any differently being "dumb" or "irrational" or "brainwashed". You'll never get through to them, because to admit that they were wrong or to change their mind on any issue would make them therefore "dumb", "irrational" or "brainwashed", and - above all else - that must be prevented at all costs. When I refused to let usfan control the narrative in the evolution thread, their mask slipped and they resorted to childish insinuations and personal attacks. Until they learn to take on board other people's arguments, and acknowledge faults in their own, they cannot meaningfully contribute to this forum.

These threads are just troll threads, designed to knowingly generate outrage and then point at the outrage and use it as further vindication of the OP's "totally rational" position. Please don't feed him. Just give him all the attention he deserves: none. When they have finally lost their audience and begin shouting into the lonely, unresponsive darkness, maybe then he will finally hear the echo of what he's saying and realize how incredibly irrational and ignorant their position is. At least, that's a possibility.

I sincerely believe usfan is a detriment to this forum. Just ignore them.
So, ignoring me, you dedicate a long post to an ad hom deflection, about my motives, character, and personal traits.. :rolleyes:

..ironic. you won't debate me with facts and reason, but rely on fallacy.. very bizarre, especially since you can't even read my posts! You prejudicially ignore them, but know exactly what they say!
;)

Are you lobbying now to have me banned? Can't handle alternate perspectives, and want an echo chamber of homogeneous belief?

Your projection is for you alone. Don't put your hangups on me.
 

Skreeper

Member
No, it is a straw man. You have caricatured 'boogie men!' :eek:.. ..pumped up from constant propaganda, to fear monger and demonized the 'evil Christians!' :eek:.. 'who want to kill and oppress us all!!' ..:eek:..

Abortion is a social, moral issue, with beliefs across ideological spectrums. It is not an exclusively 'Christian' issue.
Same with homosexuality..
'Christians hate science!', is a phony propaganda meme. Human beings from all ideological spectrums engage in scientific inquiry.

I don't demonize all Christians as evil. I was very clear that I am talking about the right wing fundagelicals that push these kinds of policies I mentioned.

Only someone who has no experience with the current political climate would suggest that there are no Christians pushing for anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-science nonsense.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Alright Trail, let's wrap this up.

It is not that God does not want you to know that He exists. God wants you to know, but God does not need you to know because God does not have any needs since God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining. We need God, God does not need us.

If God wants me to know, he's picked a crappy method that is obviously flawed, so he's gonna have to change it up. If he chooses not to, he guarantees I won't believe in him. His call. :shrug:

The reason God wants you to know He exists is for your benefit, not for God’s benefit, because God does not need anything for Himself. I hope that makes sense.

I have no need for God, since the universe goes on as though he weren't there anyway. Again, if God wants to convince me he's there, he knows where to find me.

You are right that God does not want (I mean need) to be indisputably known and believed by everyone. If He did want that He would have made sure that He was known by everyone because He could do that since He is omnipotent.

Agreed. He has picked a crappy, inferior method that guarantees that everyone won't believe in him. Despite both wanting everyone to believe in him and being literally omnipotent...

Again, the clear as day conclusion here is that this arrangement is absurd.

That was in one of my quotes: ‘“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence.“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.”

Making men all one people means making all men believers.

The caveat is that God does want everyone to believe in Him, but God does not need everyone to believe in Him, because God has no needs. That is why if people choose to reject His Messengers it is no skin off His nose. God would like everyone to recognize His Messengers; otherwise, why would God send them? But God does not barter with humans so if they reject His Messengers He is not going to communicate some other way in order to garner their belief.

Then he's created a situation that ensures he won't be universally believed. No skin off my nose, either. :shrug:

Of course, I have heard this argument before, many, many times.

Huh. It's almost as though many, many different people are trying to tell you something...;)

You can call it fundamentalism if you want to but it is not fundamentalism in the same sense as some sects of Christianity or Islam.

Yes, it is. The details are always slightly unique but it's the similarities to pay attention to. The logic you're using is perfectly analogous.

I have no problem with Baha’u’llah being infallible because I do not have a problem with authority.

Oh give me a break. :rolleyes: One of the great things about Millennials is that we've started to break down this unnecessary and counter-productive hierarchical work culture that our predecessors created. I have no problem following instructions and respecting people in authority; ask any of my ex-bosses. What I recognize, however, is that none of them are infallible. We are all human, we all have strengths and weaknesses and all make mistakes. A strong, productive work culture is one where employees can be collaborative with their supervisors and not stifle their ingenuity out of some authoritarian deference to their boss. Why some Boomers have such a hard time with this obviously beneficial change in mindset and culture I don't know. But I suspect it's very tied up in their versions of religion, too.

No, I wouldn’t want to because I realize that God is too powerful to approach directly.

Only by his choice. How many times must we tread this ground?

No, that is not what I meant to convey. This is difficult to explain because the Baha’i Faith is so different from all the older religions. In brief, Baha’u’llah made a binding Covenant with His followers and wrote a will and testament in which he passed along authority to his eldest son, Abdu’l-Baha who was the Centre of His Covenant. Then Abdu’l-Baha wrote a will and testament and he conferred authority upon His grandson, Shoghi Effendi. So they have the authority to explain the Writings of Baha’u’llah. It is not that we need them explained because we can read them and understand them, but they provided us with additional books to read that explain them in different ways and they answered the questions that Baha’is had after Baha’u’llah had died. Since the Guardian Shoghi Effendi died in 1957 the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) is now the head of the Baha’i Faith.

I'm gonna break something to you, friend. It's not that different from other religions. Christianity and Islam, as well as multiple subsects under those umbrella, have arrangements much like this. Sure, we have the Bible/Qur'an, but Jesus/Muhammad passed his authority and teachings on to others who now interpret and further explain them for the rest of us. The details are always slightly different in each case. The similarities are undeniable.

Wow, you finally ask the most important question!

I actually asked it before, but mkay sure...

The answer in brief is that we all have to demonstrate that to ourselves by doing a lot of research and reading the Writings, but once demonstrated it is obvious to us.

"Do lots of reading and research" is really not a method. I'm looking for a methodology, a way to tell the difference between a book written by just any other person and a book written by a deity.

If you really think about it, human beings (who also have a divine nature) are the only means for God to get a message to humans, since God cannot show up Himself.

:facepalm:

No.

No. No. No.

We've been over this. There is no "cannot" with an omnipotent being. He chooses not to show up himself.

I was waiting for that and I am on the same page as you are. I do not think we can know if God has communicated something to our minds, not like a Messenger can know, and we can easily delude ourselves if we think we know.

How can a Messenger know, any more than you? Again, I'm looking for a methodology.

I am glad you are finally coming to realize this and maybe you can come to understand that it is really a good thing for us to have a go-between, not a bad thing. I like having my attorney in between me and a tenant, so I do not have to deal with him directly. :D

You need an attorney to talk to God? Are you afraid he's going to screw you? Overcharge you? What a weird conception of God.
 
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ArtieE

Well-Known Member
1. I dispute that 'All theists have their own personal version of God!' :eek:.. they do not. The basic IDEA of God is uniformly homogeneous among MOST theists. Omniscient. Omnipresent. Omnipotence. Creator. Merciful. Holy. Pure. There my be minor nuances, or differences in perception (see 'Blind Men & Elephant story), but the BASIC CONCEPT of the Almighty is consistent throughout the human experience.
Not even the Christian God and Allah is the same god. God has a son. Allah doesn't. God is triune, Allah isn't. And on and on. Pick one or the other. Pick Allah and you can forget all about any resurrection. Muslims say that's a lie. No Christ paying for people's sins.
What are the differences between Allah and the God of the Christian Bible? | Truth Or Tradition?
4. The intensity and dedication to atheistic propaganda is a more credible explanation for the recent growth of atheism among humanity. AND, even with the thorough and constant propaganda from institutions dedicated to atheistic naturalism, the number of those who embrace atheism are still a minority.. a small minority.. among the perceptions in humanity.
"A new survey shows that 51 per cent of people in the world believe in God." Can you then figure out how many don't?
Most people believe in God, international poll finds
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Ah, good example of atheistic folly! :D

Just trying to define atheism generates righteous indignation, and religious hysteria from the True Believers, among the atheistic faithful..

So, a simple definition of 'atheism', incites you to lash out with, 'Blasphemy!' 'Fool & Liar!', types of melodrama responses.

This is another good example of atheistic folly.. good illustration. Detached discussion of philosophical concepts is impossible, with progressive indoctrinees. They personalize and take grievous offence for any examination or criticism of their beliefs. They will mock and ridicule other's beliefs with demeaning caricatures, but no definitions are even allowed for THEIR beliefs, which must remain shrouded in the Holy of Holies of Irrational Ambiguity..

:D
To all the other people reading this, do you now understand why some atheists have big problems with Christianity and Christians? It's because of posts like this and people like usfan ruining it for all you other Christians out there.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
Not even the Christian God and Allah is the same god. God has a son. Allah doesn't. God is triune, Allah isn't. And on and on. Pick one or the other. Pick Allah and you can forget all about any resurrection. Muslims say that's a lie. No Christ paying for people's sins.
What are the differences between Allah and the God of the Christian Bible? | Truth Or Tradition?"A new survey shows that 51 per cent of people in the world believe in God." Can you then figure out how many don't?
Most people believe in God, international poll finds
Once again, you nitpick over details, rather than the broader, 'God/no God', dichotomy, which is the focus of this thread. The Divine Attributes, of Omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence, are universal, when describing the Divine.

It would be quite expected, for humans to have different perceptions about God, and define Him through their cultural, anthropomorphic, regional and era biases.

That does not mean, 'Different gods!!', ..:eek:.. ..but it could more likely mean, merely different perceptions.

It is part of the folly of atheism to dismiss ANY concept of The Divine, based on different perceptions.

It is like getting different perspectives from witnesses, and dismissing an event because the witnesses did not all perfectly agree.

'The moon is waxing full, and in the southwest.'
'The moon is waning, and in the southeast'

'No agreement! Too many moons!' 'There is no moon at all!'

;)
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
To all the other people reading this, do you now understand why some atheists have big problems with Christianity and Christians? It's because of posts like this and people like usfan ruining it for all you other Christians out there.
Ah, divide and conquer, eh? ;)

No problem. You can bash me, personally, all you want. You just won't like it when i fire back.

You were expecting (or hoping for!) a one way shooting arcade? ;)

But since you're busy calling the kettle black, how do your personal attacks and smears toward Christianity and Christians give atheism a positive impression? ..since you seem so concerned about appearances? .. :shrug:
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
Ah, divide and conquer, eh? ;)

No problem. You can bash me, personally, all you want. You just won't like it when i fire back.

You were expecting (or hoping for!) a one way shooting arcade? ;)

But since you're busy calling the kettle black, how do your personal attacks and smears toward Christianity and Christians give atheism a positive impression? ..since you seem so concerned about appearances? .. :shrug:

Your posts don't exactly do that faith any favours, that is for sure.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
Your posts don't exactly do that faith any favours, that is for sure.
Another pot? ;) ..you think your posts endear everyone to atheism?

Who says we have to be winsome and effective proselytizers? Isn't that against forum rules?

Can't we just debate our opinions, without being attacked, personally, for them? :shrug:
 

Catholicus

Active Member
No one is unbiased. So if that's your standard, I dont know why you're on this forum at all. Or why you ever speak to any other humans.

He's a professional historian. You can respond to the substance of what he said, or ignore it and keep pretending there's equivalent evidence for your God as there is for Julius Caesar.

There's much better evidence for God's existence, in fact - that each of us exists.

The historian you mention is also a professional atheist
 
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