The Folly of Atheism

[usfan]

Part of the folly of atheism is moving goalposts:

'I don't have beliefs! I LACK belief! There is no evidence i find credible for God or the supernatural!'

But a theist could phrase their beliefs in the same way:
'I don't have beliefs, either! I have just found credible evidence for the existence of God & the supernatural!'

They deflect with a 'credible evidence!' qualifier, when the conclusion of belief is the question.

The conclusion of the 'evidence' molds the belief.

Personal Evidence, is the basis for most beliefs. Indoctrination, upbringing, personal experience, peer influence, and other factors combine to shape the worldview, belief, ideology, or opinion of each person. We don't exist in a vacuum, but are products of our genetics and environment.

I see no rational basis for excluding atheism as a worldview, or belief, in the history of man.

 

[ArtieE]

I see no rational basis for excluding atheism as a worldview, or belief, in the history of man.

Which, since you can't come up with a single belief in what supposedly is a belief "system", shows us that you've completely lost it...

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Projection? Religious bigotry? Tools for deception? Paranoia? ..i don't know..

Why... none of the above, of course. I'm exposing you as untrustworthy and entirely capable of holding conflicting views all while believing yourself things like "rational" and espousing "truth." You want to call this "ad hominem" - unfortunately all I had to use to display these things was your own words. In other words... you attack yourself... you just don't even realize it. I don't have to give you a bad reputation. You've got that covered, obviously.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It is only considered immoral to you, but that does not make it immoral..

No-- the idea of Fairness? Is literally baked into every single system of Moral Philosophy on the planet.

Maliciously and deliberately remaining vague and impossible to detect? Is patently immoral.

I did not say so-- pretty much all the philosophies on the planet say so.

God does not show Himself to anyone..

Except for that Special Favorite? Right?

Or are you now admitting the "messenger" was not, in fact a messenger at all?

We agree.

 

[Trailblazer]

Please clarify. Unless a book is regarded as trustworthy it obviously can't be regarded as evidence for anything. So you see the Quran as trustworthy but not the Bible?

The Qur'an is more trustworthy than the Bible because it is more authentic. Here are some official positions from the Baha'i Faith sources who carry authority:

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh.
(28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

 

[Trailblazer]

You mean you believe the Urantia Book was not written by a Manifestation of God. It is still packed with useful and detailed information. I am in the process of reading it. Have you read it? Because the correct procedure for determining the value of a book is to read it first and then use logic, reason and common sense etc to determine whether the information has any truth value or makes sense or not.

People have to determine what they have time for. I wish I had time to read everything out there that looks interesting or valuable, but I do not even have time to read the Baha'i Writings most of the time.

I spend most of my free time posting on forums. I also have my own forum I have to tend to, and even though there are not many posters there it is still my responsibility to respond to posted that are posted to me.

I have a full time job and 11 cats and 3 houses to care for and I have neglected many things i should be doing for my own well-being for years. I am pretty worried because I have NO idea how I will ever get back on track.

 

[Trailblazer]

No-- the idea of Fairness? Is literally baked into every single system of Moral Philosophy on the planet.

Maliciously and deliberately remaining vague and impossible to detect? Is patently immoral.

I did not say so-- pretty much all the philosophies on the planet say so.


Except for that Special Favorite? Right?

Or are you now admitting the "messenger" was not, in fact a messenger at all?

We agree.

The worst things God has done/does have NOTHING to do with how God communicates to humanity...
If you want to think God is malicious, I suggest you think that for the right reasons...
This world is a storehouse of suffering and there are indeed special favorites who hardly suffer at all...
Many good people suffer through NO fault of their own while lazy and bad people are enjoying themselves....

Why did God create a world like this one, for His special favorites?
Where is God, does He even care about our endless suffering?

 

[ArtieE]

The Qur'an is more trustworthy than the Bible because it is more authentic. Here are some official positions from the Baha'i Faith sources who carry authority:

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh.
(28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

Your quote says: "all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic." Why? What criteria do you use to verify the veracity of what this "Bahá'u'lláh and the Master" says?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The worst things God has done/does have NOTHING to do with how God communicates to humanity...
If you want to think God is malicious, I suggest you think that for the right reasons...
This world is a storehouse of suffering and there are indeed special favorites who hardly suffer at all...
Many good people suffer through NO fault of their own while lazy and bad people are enjoying themselves....

Why did God create a world like this one, for His special favorites?
Where is God, does He even care about our endless suffering?

I don't think gods are real-- I am **ONLY** going by how YOU describe YOUR god.

JUST based on that-- and that alone? Your god is quite evil.

This apparently escapes you, somehow.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Part of the folly of atheism is moving goalposts:

'I don't have beliefs! I LACK belief! There is no evidence i find credible for God or the supernatural!'

But a theist could phrase their beliefs in the same way:
'I don't have beliefs, either! I have just found credible evidence for the existence of God & the supernatural!'

They deflect with a 'credible evidence!' qualifier, when the conclusion of belief is the question.

The conclusion of the 'evidence' molds the belief.

Personal Evidence, is the basis for most beliefs. Indoctrination, upbringing, personal experience, peer influence, and other factors combine to shape the worldview, belief, ideology, or opinion of each person. We don't exist in a vacuum, but are products of our genetics and environment.

I see no rational basis for excluding atheism as a worldview, or belief, in the history of man.

blah-blah-blah-- the theist STILL cannot show any rational reason to believe in his god.

 

[ArtieE]

People have to determine what they have time for. I wish I had time to read everything out there that looks interesting or valuable, but I do not even have time to read the Baha'i Writings most of the time.

That is why I recommend https://www.amazon.com/Michael-Newton/e/B000APC05I?ref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share because these books actually are worth reading as opposed to most of what you keep quoting here.

I spend most of my free time posting on forums.

Ditto.

I have a full time job and 11 cats and 3 houses to care for and I have neglected many things i should be doing for my own well-being for years. I am pretty worried because I have NO idea how I will ever get back on track.

How much time do you spend on this Baha'i stuff?

 

[Trailblazer]

Nor does it mean your criteria are right, obviously. If your criteria and their criteria are contradictory, clearly someone is wrong, if not all of you.

That is true, someone is wrong.

If God doesn't care if we believe in him, and he imposes no negative afterlife repercussions on non-believers, okay fine. Then this whole conversation is sorta irrelevant.

So, are you saying that the only reason it would be important for you to believe in God would be because of what might happen to you in the afterlife if you don’t believe in God? This certainly is a consideration, since the afterlife is forever whereas our life on this earth is very short and temporary.

I do not know that God imposes anything negative on people in the afterlife, what we will have in the afterlife is what we have become by way of our character and spiritual growth, since all of who we have become goes with us. Better than me trying to explain it in my own words, this short video explains the Baha’i view of heaven and hell, and you can ask me any questions you might have after you watch it.

Trail: that's a self-imposed limitation on God's part, is it not? Is he not all powerful? Did he not create us/the universe? If so, he chose to create a situation to prevent himself from directly communicating with us.

Which for the 8th time, is...absurd, friend. And is 100% his choice and his fault.

It is not a limitation on God’s part; it is a choice God made because God does not want to communicate directly with ordinary human beings.

It seems absurd to you because you think God should do this because you want God to do this. But that does not mean it is absurd. You just are not getting what you want so you call it absurd. That is psych 101 stuff, and I do it myself, all the time, when I perceive God is sitting on his ***.

The thing is that even when I get angry at God and scream about Him as I did last night, I am aware that I am the one with the problem, because I am not All-Knowing or All-Wise, so I cannot know as much as God as to why this suffering exists and is often allowed to go on unabated. It does not seem right to me so I go searching for answers. That is why I wrote that thread I wanted to post entitled “God and Suffering” but I have been too busy to post it yet. I keep saying, maybe today, and then something else happens. My life is a veritable mess.

So, since we are not going to make an All-Powerful God do what we want Him to do, we have three choices:

1. Complain about it
2. Try to understand the ways of God
3. Forget about God altogether

I do #1 once in a while but then I move on to #2. I wish I could do #3, but given all the evidence for God’s existence I do not consider that a wise choice. So you could say that God has me right where he wants me and now I am challenged to find a solution. But it is really not that because it does not matter how much I scream at God; I cannot hurt God, and anything that God wants is for my own benefit, not for His benefit. I only know these things because Baha’u’llah wrote them. Otherwise I would be up the creek without a paddle.

Because there are so many things we cannot know about God, it is good that we can know a few things about God.

I do not understand why anyone would ever want to hear from God directly or see Him, but there are indications from NDEs that is what happens after we die, the Being of Light. After that, we do not really know what happens; God might go back into His cave.

So you actually have better communication skills than your own deity. And yet you think your deity created this whole situation by design. Again, that's...say it with me now...

I could understand why you would think that if the Bible was all you had to go on, because it is like an unmapped swamp, impossible to navigate and understand. The Qur’an is much easier to understand but now we have the Writings of Baha’u’llah so we do not need the older scriptures. I cannot say you would understand the Writings of Baha’u’llah if you read them cold, but we also have the Writings of the appointed interpreters of the Baha’i Faith, so one way or another there is something we can read and understand.

The question is: Why are words on a page not good enough? I get it that those are not proof that God exists to you, but if you came to understand and accept that is the only way God communicates, and why, then maybe it would constitute proof, or maybe not.

What does the age of a religion have to do with whether you should give it up? It's irrelevant if your religion started 5 minutes ago or 5 millennia ago. You should give up your religion if you dont have rational reasons/strong evidence to believe it's true.

I agree, we should not just believe in a religion just because it is new. We should only believe in it after we have investigated it and have determined that it is the truth.

But it does matter if the religion is really old because those older religions do not contain the message that God wants us to have in this new age; so by clinging to them as most people do, that precludes them getting the message for this age.

And your religion is no different in that regard.

It wouldn’t be any different, if the reasons people believed in it were emotional. I cannot speak for other Baha’is, only for myself, and I know my reasons are not emotional. If I could follow my emotions I would be an atheist.

I was not brought up in the Baha’i Faith, most people of my generation weren’t. I had to research it and determine if it was true or not, after I discovered it. I was not even looking for a religion or for God at that time, I was not a believer. I was attracted to the Faith because of its teachings. I left God standing outside the door until the last six years, and He is usually still standing out in the cold.

Then God is not all-powerful, and yet he chose to create this silly situation where his ability to communicate would be limited to middle men.

The caveat is that once we belief in God, God can communicate to our minds, if we let Him in. That is what prayer and meditation are all about. What God does not do is communicate a Revelation that later comes to be established as a religion to anyone other than the Messengers, because they are a protected Source since they were pre-selected by God to receive that revelation.

But we cannot have a conversation with God where God talks back, like Moses at the Burning Bush, because God is far too exalted to lower Himself down to this level.

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven.Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself.....The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

(CONTINUED ON NEXT POST)

 

[Trailblazer]

Again there's no evidence they've "always" existed. Yes, obviously, religions have founders. As I said before, men claiming they are needed to be mediators of the divine is exactly what one would expect in a godless universe.

Funny thing, I think that men claiming that they re mediators is exactly what we would expect to see in a universe where God exists, so it is all a matter of what makes sense to us, isn’t it?

There is no proof that religions have always existed, but there is evidence. The evidence is what Baha’u’llah wrote, because once we accept that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God we believe everything He wrote to be identical with the Will of God.

“And now regarding thy question, “How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?” Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time.

Moreover such forms and modes of writing as are now current amongst men were unknown to the generations that were before Adam. There was even a time when men were wholly ignorant of the art of writing, and had adopted a system entirely different from the one which they now use. For a proper exposition of this an elaborate explanation would be required.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 172-173

Before that, you would need to demonstrate your God exists in the first place.

As I tell all atheists who say the same thing, the catch-22 is that the proof that God exists is the Manifestation of God.

You just got through telling me you believe there have "always" been divine messengers, even before we have written evidence for them, because Baha'u'llah told you so. How is that not blind faith?

It is not blind faith, because as I said above, once we accept that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God then we accept that everything He wrote is the truth from God. This is called the Divine unity. In the following passage, the invisible, inaccessible, unknowable Essence is God.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

I've already done so, right here. We both have a lifetime of experience seeing that directly communicating with others is the most effective way to do so. As small children we play the game telephone to learn exactly that.

That only works for humans communicating with humans, for reasons I have explained. God is not a human so God cannot communicate like a human. This is logic 101 stuff.

Moreover, don’t you think an All-Knowing and All-Wise God knows the best way to communicate to humans? God has to know more than you unless you are All-Knowing.

There. Your search is over, Trail! Congrats!

That is not a logical argument when you compare human to human communication to God to human communication because God is not a human; so my search is not over.

I consider it rather arrogant for atheists to think that God owes it to them to speak to them directly, just because they do not like the Messengers God sends. Who do you think God is, a short order cook?

Of course not, because all you've said is, "well he's spirit, he just can't." Lol, that's not an argument or a rationale, it's just a declaration. And again, God invented the game, which means he's responsible for the rules.

There is more to it than just that God is spirit. God could reveal Himself in some way to everyone and make everyone into a believer and in this passage Baha’u’llah explains why God (the Day Spring of Truth) chooses not to do that:

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence.“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 70-71

In short, God wants everyone to search for Him and determine that He exists by using their own reason (innate powers). God also wants us to have faith, and that is why God does not offer unequivocal proof of His existence. Those who have faith are rewarded, and the caveat is that once we have absolute certitude that God exists, we no longer need faith because we know. I suppose God knows this will happen since God is All-Knowing.

Believe it or not, this isn't my first rodeo, either. I used to be a theist myself. I've also spent years listening to and talking to people of different faith backgrounds re: their reasons for believing. The more widely and deeply I allowed myself to read and study, the more liberal and nuanced my theological views became, till I realized I had no good reason to believe any of it other than as a kind of metaphor. So, the blinders are off. I can't put them back on again. But I continue to be fascinated by religion and continue considering what religious people have to say and encouraging them to think critically. Which is why I'm here.

I imagine you were probably a Christian if you live in the United States. All my atheist friends were formerly Christians, and they were burnt out Christians. I have one atheist I converse with on this forum who was never a believer of any kind, Nimos, but he lives in Denmark. It is more common in Europe to have been raised as an atheist.

I did not go through the same process that you did, because I was raised in a family wherein both my parents had dropped out of Christianity before their three children were born. Religion and God were never mentioned in my family. My father died when I was only 12 years old and I later came to find out from my mother that he had become an atheist. I think she retained her belief in God and she later became a Baha’i at age 60. By that time, my brother and sister and I had become Baha’is. My extended family was Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic, but I never saw them after I became an adult and moved out to California to go to college.

My take on religion is that it is important to believe in God because God exists. I am not fond of organized religion per se and I do not participate in any Baha’i activities since I do not have time and I do not feel like I fit in very well. I share their beliefs but I part ways with Baha’is when they say God is All-Loving. There is just too much suffering in the world to accommodate such a belief. As you can imagine, Baha’is do not like it when I say that about God, and I think it is because on some level they know I could be right. As I am sure you know, most believers do not want their treasured beliefs called into question.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your quote says: "all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic." Why? What criteria do you use to verify the veracity of what this "Bahá'u'lláh and the Master" says?

We know that what they wrote is authentic because we have all their original Writings that have been authenticated. They are all stored in the archives at the World Centre of the Baha'i Faith in Haifa, Israel.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think gods are real-- I am **ONLY** going by how YOU describe YOUR god.

JUST based on that-- and that alone? Your god is quite evil.

This apparently escapes you, somehow.

Then you are darned lucky you don't have to believe in the evil God.
Does that escape you?

 

[Trailblazer]

How much time do you spend on this Baha'i stuff?

Aside from forums, and reading on occasion, I do not have anything to do with Baha'i stuff, since I am not an active member of my Baha'i community.

I do not spend ALL my time talking about Baha'i stuff on forums. I also talk about God and sometimes other things.

I would say I spend about 12 hours as day on my three days off on forums unless I am interrupted by something I have to tend to for the rental houses or cats. That does happen when a new tenant is getting settled in.
On my work days, I probably spend about three or four hours reading but mostly writing posts.

 

[Left Coast]

That is true, someone is wrong.

So, are you saying that the only reason it would be important for you to believe in God would be because of what might happen to you in the afterlife if you don’t believe in God? This certainly is a consideration, since the afterlife is forever whereas our life on this earth is very short and temporary.

It's not the only reason, but it's certainly a big one.

On the other hand, I'd like to think if I learned that there really is a God and he really would send people to Hell for the thought-crime of atheism, I'd say, "**** you, send me there anyway."

 

[Left Coast]

Funny thing, I think that men claiming that they re mediators is exactly what we would expect to see in a universe where God exists, so it is all a matter of what makes sense to us, isn’t it?

No, it's a matter of you being incorrect.

In a godless universe, we would not expect for God to ever reveal himself. Thus our only alleged access to the divine would come from humans claiming to speak on behalf of the divine.

In a theistic universe, the above scenario could occur, but only in the following conditions: 1) God doesn't want to reveal himself, and makes the universe appear godless - in which case, why believe in him? 2) God is not omnipotent, and thus literally can't communicate with us in any way directly - in which case, he's either so impotent I don't know why we're calling him God, or he chose to create a creation he can't communicate with - which brings us back to #1.

There is no proof that religions have always existed, but there is evidence. The evidence is what Baha’u’llah wrote, because once we accept that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God we believe everything He wrote to be identical with the Will of God.

Again, replace Baha'u'llah with the Bible or the Catholic church or the LDS church or L. Ron Hubbard or (fill in the blank) and you've got the classic recipe of fundamentalism. I'm sorry, I need more evidence than someone's say-so.

As I tell all atheists who say the same thing, the catch-22 is that the proof that God exists is the Manifestation of God.

It's not a catch-22 as much as it's just circular reasoning.

It is not blind faith, because as I said above, once we accept that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God then we accept that everything He wrote is the truth from God.

And your evidence that Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of God is...?

That only works for humans communicating with humans, for reasons I have explained. God is not a human so God cannot communicate like a human. This is logic 101 stuff.

No, "Logic 101 stuff" is that an omnipotent being can do whatever he wants. Including create a creation he can talk directly to. "Logic 101 stuff" is that direct communication is the most effective form of communication, and thus if God's goal is to effectively communicate he would do so directly.

You've already conceded that this is not a necessary state of affairs we're in. God made this game and invented the rules. He could have done it differently. Yet you keep falling back on this line of reasoning like it just has to be this way. It doesn't.

Moreover, don’t you think an All-Knowing and All-Wise God knows the best way to communicate to humans? God has to know more than you unless you are All-Knowing.

That is a great way to rationalize literally anything about God that doesn't make sense. God rapes someone - oh what little puny human, don't you think the morally perfect God has better morals than you?

That is not a logical argument when you compare human to human communication to God to human communication because God is not a human; so my search is not over.

God is ostensibly more powerful than humans, so he should be able to communicate even more effectively than humans! Yet his communication is no better than if he weren't there at all. So yes, your search is over - this belief in Messengers makes no sense 10 ways from Sunday.

I consider it rather arrogant for atheists to think that God owes it to them to speak to them directly, just because they do not like the Messengers God sends. Who do you think God is, a short order cook?

It's arrogant to want to speak directly to someone to ensure you understand them properly? Get outta here. It's completely reasonable and ordinary.

There is more to it than just that God is spirit. God could reveal Himself in some way to everyone and make everyone into a believer and in this passage Baha’u’llah explains why God (the Day Spring of Truth) chooses not to do that:

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence.“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 70-71

In short, God wants everyone to search for Him and determine that He exists by using their own reason (innate powers).

Bad move on his part, since there aren't any rational reasons I've seen.

God also wants us to have faith, and that is why God does not offer unequivocal proof of His existence. Those who have faith are rewarded, and the caveat is that once we have absolute certitude that God exists, we no longer need faith because we know. I suppose God knows this will happen since God is All-Knowing.

If faith just means confidence, then sure, but our confidence can only reasonably be proportional to the strength of the evidence available (which for God is pi$$ poor). If faith means belief without (good) evidence, then God is expecting something unreasonable and potentially quite dangerous.

My take on religion is that it is important to believe in God because God exists. I am not fond of organized religion per se and I do not participate in any Baha’i activities since I do not have time and I do not feel like I fit in very well. I share their beliefs but I part ways with Baha’is when they say God is All-Loving. There is just too much suffering in the world to accommodate such a belief. As you can imagine, Baha’is do not like it when I say that about God, and I think it is because on some level they know I could be right. As I am sure you know, most believers do not want their treasured beliefs called into question.

This does help me frame your other statements somewhat. If God doesn't love me, then I guess some of the things he's alleged to do are completely predictable. But if that's the case - if he doesn't love me and doesn't even want me to know him - I damn sure better never be expected to worship him, or even believe he's there if he continues hiding.

 

[Trailblazer]

On the other hand, I'd like to think if I learned that there really is a God and he really would send people to Hell for the thought-crime of atheism, I'd say, "**** you, send me there anyway."

I would not worry about that.
To my knowledge, God does not send anyone to hell because they are atheists, not if my religion is true.

"This cycle is the cycle of favor and not of justice. Therefore, those whose deeds are clean and pure, even though they are not believers, will not be deprived of the divine mercy; but perfection is in faith and deeds. Undoubtedly, a person, who is not a believer, but whose deeds and morals are good, is far better than one who claims his belief in words but, who, in actions, is a follower of satan. The Blessed Beauty says, 'My humiliation is not in my imprisonment, which, by my life, is an exaltation to me; nay rather, it is in the deeds of my friends, who attribute themselves to us and commit that which causes my heart and pen to weep!'"

(Attributed to 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Star of the West, vol. 9, issue 3, p. 29)​

On the other hand, if Christianity is the One True Religion, then it could be another story.
I have been duly informed by some Christians that as a Baha'i I am going to hell even though I believe in Jesus, because I do not believe in the same Jesus they believe in, as if there is more than one Jesus...

 

[usfan]

blah-blah-blah-- the theist STILL cannot show any rational reason to believe in his god.

Nor can you show any empirical reason to deny my perceptions and embrace atheism...
..and btw, this is not a 'proof of God!' thread. It's about the folly of atheism. I think deflecting with irrational bias, bigotry, and hostility toward 'Christians!' .... ..shows a little folly. If it was a mere scientific conclusion, why would there be such religious passion & hysteria?

The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. ~Eric Hoffer