Why do Jehovah's Witnesses falsify the Bible?

[Sandra Jayne]

Check out the below link for totals of JW's around the world by country:

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/2018-service-year-report/2018-country-territory/

The United States has the largest numbers of JW's in the world, which makes sense since the group was started there. And there are too many factors involved to figure out why the JW membership varies in different countries. Certainly some of their higher percentages are in religious countries which are not strict with a specific religion and are part of the first world.

Actually JW's are told that that there is a link between higher education and arrogance. They consider themselves as having the best education for the reasons that you mentioned. The problem is that many are pressured into not having a higher education if they grew up in a Witness household (not an issue here in South Africa much though. In fact a brother from Bethel came to South Africa at last years convention saying that JW's should not send their kids to higher education.). But the main reason they say children shouldn't have higher education is that it undermines their faith with contradictory ideas (such as evolution. Watch an Anthony Morris video on higher education (A governing Body Member). They do not like having members exposed to contrary ideas. Higher Education is one of the biggest reason why those raised as JW's don't bother becoming Witnesses.

I think you will find if you spoke to any Jehovah's Witness they would know a GREAT deal more about evolution than any other person you are likely to ask. People often confuse being well educated with being wise, I have met many well educated fools.

Out of all religions if there is a God and if the Bible is the truth then I have no doubt Jehovah's Witness are the one's who are chosen to spread the gospel. I may not be brilliant but I consider myself to be quite well educated.

My problem is getting over the last hurdle of believing without any doubt there is a god

 

[Sandra Jayne]

Christianity was a Jewish cult. Not in a bad way. It was an offshoot with odd beliefs.

By the way Welcome to the forum!

I see that you study Philosophy and Psychology. Have you ever studied Cult Psychology out of interest?

Thanks for that. I think there is an assignment on Cult Psychology coming up in my next module, must admit much preferring Philosophy despite getting distinctions in psychology modules I hate it.

 

[Sandra Jayne]

Doesn't change the scriptures in Acts 5 that confirm the Holy Spirit is God. You need more?

The Holy Spirit is a Person - God!

While in Genesis 1:2 we see the "Spirit of God" moving upon the face of the waters during creation (remember God as "Elohim," a plural creator), there is a very important and often overlooked verse in which the prophet Isaiah reveals that the Holy Spirit is more than just some type of spiritual force. Isaiah 63:10 reads,

"But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit: therefore He was
turned to be their enemy, and He fought against them."

The word "vexed," as used above, is the Hebrew word "atsab," which means "to worry, pain, or anger; to grieve, hurt, or make sorry" (Zodhiates Old Testament Word Study - Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary section, page 91). The question, of course, is "How can some inanimate force be angered or grieved, as we see occurred in the above passage? Only if the Holy Spirit was alive and possessed personal attributes could He experience these types of emotions." The Holy Spirit must therefore be a person.

Another important verse that shows that the Holy Spirit is one of the "Creators" is found in Job 33:4, which reads,

"The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty
hath given me life."

Obviously, the Holy Spirit must possess intelligence in order to take part in the creative process. Other "personal" attributes of the Holy Spirit are as follows:

1. The Holy Spirit "testifies" (Nehemiah 9:30).
2. The Spirit "instructs" (Nehemiah 9:20).
3. The Spirit "strives with men" (Genesis 6:3).
4. The Spirit sends messengers (Isaiah 48:16).
5. The Spirit enabled Joseph to interpret Pharoah's dreams (Genesis 41:38).
6. The Spirit gives wisdom (Exodus 28:3; 31:1-6; 35:31).
7. The Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of Wisdom" (Isaiah 11:2).
8. He is the Spirit of Knowledge (Isaiah 11:2)

Many passages in the Bible prove that the Holy Spirit is a person.
The Bible shows in many places that the Holy Spirit is acting, and that can only be said by one person.
The Holy Spirit ...
• teaches the disciples (Luke 12:12, John 14:26, 1 Cor 2:13)
• recalls the words of the Lord (John 14:26)
• bears witness to God (John 15:26)
• convict the world of sin, justice and judgment (Jn. 16:8-11)
• leads believers into the whole truth (Jn 16:13)
• announce the coming to the disciples (Jn 16:13)
• talks about the things of the Al (Jn 16:13)
• glorify Jesus (Jn 16:14).
• speaks to believers (Acts 8:29; 10,19; 11,12; 13,2; 20,23; 21,11; 28,25)
• encourages saints (Acts 9:31)
• prevents disciples from doing anything (Acts 16.6)
• forbids disciples to do anything (Acts 16: 7)
• leads the sons(Romans 8:14, Gal 5:18)
• affirm with our spirit that we are children of God (Ro 8:16)
• helps believers in their weakness (Romans 8:26)
• uses God for believers according to (Romans 8:27)
• explore the depths of God (1 Cor 2:10)
• distributes gifts according to His will (1 Cor 12:11)
• writes on flesh-tablets of the heart (2 Cor 3: 3)
• foretells the future (1 Tim 4: 1)
• witnesses the forgiveness of sins to Christians (Heb. 10:15)
• resting on self-proclaiming Christians (1 Pet 4:14)
• speaks to meetings (Off 2,7.11.17.29; 3,6,13,22)
• explains the words of God (Rev 14,13)
• call to Jesus(Rev 22,17)

The Scriptures not only show that the Spirit of God is acting, but are also presented as someone with whom something happens.
The Holy Spirit can ...
• to be blasphemed (Mark 3:29, 30)
• be lied to (Acts 5: 3)
• be tried, that is, put to the test (Acts 5: 9)
• to be fought (Acts 7:51)
• be saddened (Eph 4,30)
• reviled (Heb 10:29)

Notice clearly that all of the things that the Holy Spirit does requires intelligence of the variety that only God alone can possess. This ties God and the Holy Spirit together in a most closely-knit and inseparable unity.

Elohim was also used for groups of Canaanite gods, when it was used by Moses he used it to indicate the one God, it was a homonym, spelled and sounded the same but had a different meaning.

As for personifying the Holy Spirit that is no evidence it means a person, the Bible also personifies, wisdom, sin, death, water and blood.

You can be baptised with the Holy Spirit. Matthew 3:11
You can be anointed with the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:38

What about at Pentecost where a number of followers of Christ were all filled with the Holy Spirit at the same time, doesn't sound like a person to me.

Whilst in the scriptures God is given a name, and of course there is Jesus but no name is ever given to the Holy Spirit, odd if it's a person.

The visions of heaven experienced by authors of the scriptures mention 'seeing' God and or Jesus (as a separate person I may add) but no mention is ever made of seeing the Holy Spirit.

I think I'm right in saying whilst in Revelations God and Jesus are mentioned on a number of times but no mention or visions of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Deeje]

I think you will find if you spoke to any Jehovah's Witness they would know a GREAT deal more about evolution than any other person you are likely to ask. People often confuse being well educated with being wise, I have met many well educated fools.

Being well educated in the wrong things only works in this world. That kind of education does not mean much to God, who always educated his people in the important things...those that pertain to everyday life. Living the best way possible, "making sure of the more important things".

Jesus had no formal education but even in his youth could run rings around the religious leaders, confounding them with his knowledge and ability to understand the scriptures at a much higher level than they ever could. He deliberately chose uneducated men as his apostles for a good reason.....the education that the Jews received in the rabbinical system was distorted. He castigated the Pharisees for promoting their traditions over scripture. He called their teachings "leaven" (corrupting)

Jehovah's Witnesses receive the best education anyone could ever want or need.....how to live life in this world ruled by satan, without the distractions that lead people away from God rather than to him. (1 John 5:19; 1 John 2:15-17)

One aspect of higher education that many forget is the environment in college campuses, often the scene of immoral, drunken or drug fuelled behavior that should be unacceptable to any Christian. To place our young people in such an environment would be irresponsible to say the least. There are many ways to educate ourselves online these days, so some of our members will gain qualifications for a chosen form of employment through this means, apprenticeships or other on the job training. We do not reject higher education per se, but we do not see it as the be all and end all of life.

How many well educated people can't find a job, so they wait tables and tend bars.

Many of us would rather be window washers or office cleaners and have our days free to serve our God in the important matter of preaching the good news, before the fast approaching "end" to this current world system of things. (Matthew 24:14) Those who are slaves to this world have all their time taken up with mundane things like making money or gaining this world's measure of success, yet what are they slaving for? Most of them never have time to enjoy the things that they sacrifice their time for!

I live in a coastal holiday destination. There is a marina here where millions of dollars worth of water vessels of various descriptions are sitting moored at the dock and rarely see any time out of it. The people who own them have lavish holiday homes here but they are empty for most of the year. What is the point? It seems as if the status of what you own is more important that the calibre of who you are. What foolishness!!

Out of all religions if there is a God and if the Bible is the truth then I have no doubt Jehovah's Witness are the one's who are chosen to spread the gospel. I may not be brilliant but I consider myself to be quite well educated.

Indeed.....I do not see anyone else doing what we do. There is so much more to being "educated" than this world will ever know. Jesus educated people with God's word.....we try to do that too.

My problem is getting over the last hurdle of believing without any doubt there is a god

What makes you doubt? Jehovah has been my guide, my friend, and my go-to for any and all problems. I cannot have doubt when I have experienced his hand in my life in more ways than I can count.....

Paul called a lack of faith, "the sin that easily entangles us" and it's easy to see why. Doubt was the thing that undid Eve right at the beginning. Causing doubt has been one of the devil's favourite tactics all along because it works so well for him. He just has to plant that seed and then fertilise and water it.....we don't let him fertilise and water it.

The Bible gives us the best advice and it always works. To the extent that we apply its recommendations, that is the extent to which they work. God gives us back way more that we could ever give to him.....

 

[Sandra Jayne]

That verse comes from Ecclesiastes. The book of Ecclesiastes in terms of context is that it is the Congregator (narrator, maybe King Solomon) speaking about his life experience on earth, his journey to attain wisdom and what he sees happening around him. His experience on the earth is that life is vanity and ultimately mans whole duty is to fear God and keep his commandments. He is speaking about the real world around him. (It is personally one of my favourite books ever. Very cathartic for me.) The context shows that the above verse you quoted is from a human perspective. Those who are dead and in the grave really have no affect on the real world, and to us their existence is gone. So this isn't actually speaking about what happens after we die from a theological standpoint. Therefore this cannot be used as a foundational text for the idea of whether a soul is immortal or not, because the book is discussing everything "under the sun".

That being said, i tend to subscribe to the very human viewpoint of the author.

Other texts to think about when discussing the "soul" is verses mentioning the "breath of life" which gives men life and when men die it is taken back by God, which certainly shows that the bible says that there is a life giving force within us, separate from the body. Also refer to the verse where Jesus says that God can kill the mind, body and "Soul". These verses do not address whether the sin is conscious or not though.

Yes, whatever the soul is it can obviously die, maybe it means the 'self' as opposed to the body.

I have considered what it means when God gave man the "breath of life" but again if one looks at the scriptures it seems unlikely it is anything that is conscious.
....so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no more, he will not be awakened or roused from sleep. If only You would hide me in Sheol and conceal me until Your anger passes. If only You would appoint a time for me and then remember me.When a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, until my relief comes.…Job 14:12-14

I recently visited Girona in Spain where they had a Jewish quarter and there was a museum where they had dug up a cemetery and I found the inscriptions on the tombstones of particular interest. Apart from the names being different what followed was almost the same in every case.

......he/she will sleep peacefully in their grave with a hope for their reward at the end of time. They didn't appear to believe they would 'go' anywhere until an appointed time.

 

[tigger2]

Elohim was also used for groups of Canaanite gods, when it was used by Moses he used it to indicate the one God, it was a homonym, spelled and sounded the same but had a different meaning.

As for personifying the Holy Spirit that is no evidence it means a person, the Bible also personifies, wisdom, sin, death, water and blood.

You can be baptised with the Holy Spirit. Matthew 3:11
You can be anointed with the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:38

What about at Pentecost where a number of followers of Christ were all filled with the Holy Spirit at the same time, doesn't sound like a person to me.

Whilst in the scriptures God is given a name, and of course there is Jesus but no name is ever given to the Holy Spirit, odd if it's a person.

The visions of heaven experienced by authors of the scriptures mention 'seeing' God and or Jesus (as a separate person I may add) but no mention is ever made of seeing the Holy Spirit.

I think I'm right in saying whilst in Revelations God and Jesus are mentioned on a number of times but no mention or visions of the Holy Spirit.

It's also interesting to note that in the Hebrew scriptures 'Holy Spirit' is in the feminine gender (which may also be used for neuter), and in the NT Greek scriptures 'Holy Spirit' is in the neuter gender. Of course 'God,' 'Father,' 'Son,' 'Lord,' etc. are found in the masculine gender.

 

[dybmh]

It's also interesting to note that in the Hebrew scriptures 'Holy Spirit' is in the feminine gender (which may also be used for neuter), and in the NT Greek scriptures 'Holy Spirit' is in the neuter gender. Of course 'God,' 'Father,' 'Son,' 'Lord,' etc. are found in the masculine gender.

That's interesting.... would you please provide a reference where Holy Spirit is feminine in Hebrew Scripture?

The reason I ask is, in Hebrew, Holy Spirit, is Ruach HaKodesh. HaKodesh is Masculine even though Ruach is generally thought of as Feminine.

hyperlink >>> Strong's Hebrew: 6944. קֹ֫דֶשׁ (qodesh) -- apartness, sacredness

 

[Trailblazer]

If you believe we have a 'soul' which continues to exist after we die I would be interested to know what you make of these verses.

“The dead know nothing . . . There is no pursuit, no plan, no knowledge or intelligence, within the grave.” Moffat Ecclesiastes 9:5

When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them. NIV Psalm 146:4

That refers to the dead body. The brain and mind die when the body dies so the dead body knows nothing.

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. NIV John 3:13

I do not think that proves that nobody goes to heaven. Please not the different translation:

John 3 New King James Version (NKJV)13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a]

Ascending to heaven is not the same as going to heaven and other translations probably say something slightly different.

Besides that, one cannot cherry pick one verse to try to prove that nobody goes to heaven but Jesus because I am sure there are many other verses that would refute that.

Besides that, why would there be a heaven where only Jesus resides? That makes no sense.

 

[Trailblazer]

I find your thread thought provoking but I would like to ask you to consider a possibility.
For the sake of argument let us accept there is one God, a creator of everything.
In the Old Testament God choose the Jewish people and gave them laws to keep them 'separate' from the pagan religions all around them because Jesus was to be born from this lineage.

This is not my thread, but I am discussing some of this on a thread I started last night entitled

What happens to our body after we die?

From a Baha’i perspective, what God did in the Old Testament with the Jews is now history, because we are no longer living in that religious dispensation. Secondly, the Old Testament is not the first time God ever spoke to humans, as there have been Messengers from God and religions since humans have existed and that was much longer than 6000 years ago. I do not want to get into that right now because it will take too long. Ask me later if you want to know more.

If God came up with a plan to take us back to where we would have been if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned isn't it logical that God would also choose a people at the end of this world as we know it to teach people about the truth of the scriptures?

If you read what I posted to @Deeje on that other thread (first three posts) you will get an idea of what I believe about the Garden of Eden.

First of all, Baha’is do not believe in original sin. That is explained in this chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE

There is no easy way to say this, but since the dispensation of Moses has ended, the Old Testament scriptures are no longer applicable to this age in history. The spiritual truths contained therein is still valid, but the messages that it had for humanity in that age are not the messages God has now and the social teachings and laws are not useful for this new age. This not only applies to the Old Testament, but also to all the older religions. They were all time-date stamped and had an expiration date.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

This is based upon the primary underpinning theology of the Baha’i Faith, which is called Progressive Revelation

Regarding who God would choose, God favors those who choose to recognize His Messengers when they appear and that is why the Jews were the chosen people during the Dispensation of Moses and the Christians were the chosen people during the Dispensation of Jesus. We are now living in the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah, so the Baha’is are the chosen people because we chose to recognize Baha’u’llah and follow Him.

“Say: Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence. Paradise is on your right hand, and hath been brought nigh unto you, while Hell hath been made to blaze. Witness its devouring flame. Haste ye to enter into Paradise, as a token of Our mercy unto you, and drink ye from the hands of the All-Merciful the Wine that is life indeed.

Drink with healthy relish, O people of Bahá. Ye are indeed they with whom it shall be well. This is what they who have near access to God have attained. This is the flowing water ye were promised in the Qur’án, and later in the Bayán, as a recompense from your Lord, the God of Mercy. Blessed are they that quaff it.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 45-46

I don't accept that all religions lead to the same place because there can only ever be one truth and if there is a God I'm pretty sure He would make sure we all hear it even if on a forum.

As a Baha’i, I believe that all the major religions were the truth for their age (religious dispensation) but the Baha’iFaith is the truth for this age and it is the religion that God wants everyone to follow.

God is not the one that makes sure people hear about His new religion. Baha’u’llah, speaking as the Voice of God, enjoined the Baha’is to tell people about His Cause (religion). So if no Baha’is showed up on this forum, then nobody on this forum would know about the Baha’i Faith. However, such is not the case. There are several Baha’is on this forum who post regularly, although I am probably the one who posts the most and the longest informational posts because I think forums are the best way to get the message out. I take Baha’u’llah’s injunctions to proclaim and teach His Cause very seriously, so I have allowed the rest of my life to go to pot. What matters more, the condition of my house and yard, or people knowing the truth about God? I made my decision it was the latter.

But things got really bad, so I am presently trying to get some things back on track, so if you do not see an answer to your post that is just because I am too busy, and I save all longer posts in Word documents to answer as soon as I have time.

Not that gender matters, but I was told by another Baha’i on this forum that I am the first and only female Baha’i here.

(CONTINUED ON NEXT POST)

 

[Trailblazer]

I find this verse quite sobering-
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matthew 7:13-14
Doesn't appear many of us are going to make it.

This seems to signify one has to look for the small gate and narrow road but if one has presuppositions as to what is the truth is one ever going to even recognise it if they should come across it? Perhaps we don't wish to 'see' the truth because it is easier to remain where we are, perhaps making the change is just too hard for some, much easier to follow our own 'leanings' even if it means it results in non existence.

It just so happens that over the years I have written a lot about those verses and what they mean from a Baha’i perspective. I saved several versions of posts I have written in a Word document, so I will now have to pick the version I think is best to answer your questions.

First, let me say that you are right on track in your thinking about why so few people find the narrow gate.

The narrow gate was Christianity in the early days of Christianity when it was a new religion because only a few people chose to follow Jesus. But Christianity is not new anymore... Obviously Christianity is not the narrow gate now since many have now entered and one third of people in the world are Christians.

Christians all have different idea about what those verses mean but most of them believe they refer to their particular sect of Christianity, which would make all the other sects false. Some Christians such as JWs believe only a few are chosen and they will be favored when Jesus returns.

In the early days of Christianity and in the early days of every new religion there were only a few followers of the Prophet (Messenger) and most other people said it was nonsense, but eventually those religions grew to be recognized worldwide. The same thing will happen to the Baha’i Faith.

In this new age, the narrow gate is the Baha’i Faith and it is narrow because only a few people recognize and follow God’s new religion in the beginning. That is why the Baha’i Faith is still relatively small.

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

In every new age, the religion at the narrow gate is the new religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

Jesus told us to enter through the narrow gate, the gate that leads to eternal life, and He said few people would find that gate... It is narrow, so it is difficult to get through... It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel. That is human nature.

Eventually it won’t matter how small the Baha’i Faith was in the beginning because in the distant future everyone will recognize Baha’u’llah and enter through the same gate, the gate that leads to life. However, those that enter now will have a huge reward in this life and in the afterlife, because they made the effort to look for the narrow gate and they had the courage to walk through it, rather than following the crowd.

So what I kind of comically tell people is that they can get in on the ground floor or they can wait, but unless they are young, I would not recommend waiting too long. On the other hand, nobody should ever believe in a religion out of fear. They should only believe because of the evidence for that religion and because it makes sense to them.

I just created another version to add to my Word document that is already 13 pages long. This is a very important subject worthy of attention.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I love Ecclesiastes as well, it is so 'human', nevertheless I am not convinced by your explanation, he actually says, "the dead know nothing" sometimes things are meant to be taken as they are without looking for other explanations.
It appears from the other verse that no-one had gone to heaven prior to Jesus despite what some denominations claim.

It is actually all depends on what different people get from reading it. So I do consider your view an alternative viewpoint.

It would be good to research the Jewish view of this too, which I do not know. Some interpret Enoch and Elijah being taken up as them going to heaven. Depending on whether one holds the New Testament as scripture or not, such as Jews, also influences interpretation of Hebrew scriptures.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I think you will find if you spoke to any Jehovah's Witness they would know a GREAT deal more about evolution than any other person you are likely to ask. People often confuse being well educated with being wise, I have met many well educated fools.

Out of all religions if there is a God and if the Bible is the truth then I have no doubt Jehovah's Witness are the one's who are chosen to spread the gospel. I may not be brilliant but I consider myself to be quite well educated.

My problem is getting over the last hurdle of believing without any doubt there is a god

Having been a JW myself, I can pretty much say that JW's do not understand much about evolution. As a comparison, speak to some people on this forum about it and you will see a big difference in understanding.

They do believe in microevolution though.

Studying in depth on their doctrine of the anointed I left the group. Their reasoning doesn't add up with the Bible, especially regarding the 144 000 and the Great Crowd which has been discussed in other threads here. At best their viewpoint of it is subjective. I have no doubt that God didn't choose them for anything having researched their history and their change in doctrine over the years. Not to mention the consequences of their practices like shunning.

Faith is a journey. It would be interesting to hear your views on why you might doubt there is a God. I personally have no doubt that there is one even though I am not religious.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Thanks for that. I think there is an assignment on Cult Psychology coming up in my next module, must admit much preferring Philosophy despite getting distinctions in psychology modules I hate it.

I can give you links on cult psychology if you wish. There is some interesting stuff there. Philosophy is a fun rabbit hole to travel on occasion.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Yes, whatever the soul is it can obviously die, maybe it means the 'self' as opposed to the body.

I have considered what it means when God gave man the "breath of life" but again if one looks at the scriptures it seems unlikely it is anything that is conscious.
....so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no more, he will not be awakened or roused from sleep. If only You would hide me in Sheol and conceal me until Your anger passes. If only You would appoint a time for me and then remember me.When a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, until my relief comes.…Job 14:12-14

I recently visited Girona in Spain where they had a Jewish quarter and there was a museum where they had dug up a cemetery and I found the inscriptions on the tombstones of particular interest. Apart from the names being different what followed was almost the same in every case.

......he/she will sleep peacefully in their grave with a hope for their reward at the end of time. They didn't appear to believe they would 'go' anywhere until an appointed time.

I also disagree that the soul is conscious, considering that the brain affects our personality. I think the brain controls all the necessary stuff which people think a soul does.

When it comes to understanding the Jews, One must think of what they believed before and after Maimonides, before they existed in Israel, what they inside and outside the influence of Kabbalah, what the Bible says, their commentaries on the Bible etc. They have a wide range of discussion which affects their belief and understanding the Bible. I think that Kabbalists believe in an immortal soul. To get a true understanding of their variation in belief one must read their Talmud, which would probably take a life time.

Or we can ask a Jewish person on this forum

 

[Samael_Khan]

I think you will find if you spoke to any Jehovah's Witness they would know a GREAT deal more about evolution than any other person you are likely to ask. People often confuse being well educated with being wise, I have met many well educated fools.

Out of all religions if there is a God and if the Bible is the truth then I have no doubt Jehovah's Witness are the one's who are chosen to spread the gospel. I may not be brilliant but I consider myself to be quite well educated.

My problem is getting over the last hurdle of believing without any doubt there is a god

Also, I know that you doubt whether God exists, but would you have a reason to choose the Bible over other religious books? And have you studied other religions in depth so that you can come to an educated conclusion about them?

 

[Samael_Khan]

I love Ecclesiastes as well, it is so 'human', nevertheless I am not convinced by your explanation, he actually says, "the dead know nothing" sometimes things are meant to be taken as they are without looking for other explanations.
It appears from the other verse that no-one had gone to heaven prior to Jesus despite what some denominations claim.

Something interesting I noticed about this post: "sometimes things are meant to be taken as they are without looking for other explanations." If one doesn't look for alternative explanations for verses then wouldn't that mean you are being biased to one interpretation only? For all you know you could be missing vital information, history and cultural references which might cause a person to have a more accurate understanding.

Also, because of the context I mentioned earlier, I have no reason to think that that verse is referencing anything other than the reality that he sees in front of him. It has nothing to do with commenting on a soul. Proof texting a verse without addressing the context doesn't reveal the true meaning of a verse.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Yes, whatever the soul is it can obviously die, maybe it means the 'self' as opposed to the body.

I have considered what it means when God gave man the "breath of life" but again if one looks at the scriptures it seems unlikely it is anything that is conscious.
....so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no more, he will not be awakened or roused from sleep. If only You would hide me in Sheol and conceal me until Your anger passes. If only You would appoint a time for me and then remember me.When a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, until my relief comes.…Job 14:12-14

I recently visited Girona in Spain where they had a Jewish quarter and there was a museum where they had dug up a cemetery and I found the inscriptions on the tombstones of particular interest. Apart from the names being different what followed was almost the same in every case.

......he/she will sleep peacefully in their grave with a hope for their reward at the end of time. They didn't appear to believe they would 'go' anywhere until an appointed time.

Regarding the soul dying: There are various words translated as soul in the Bible. An obvious one is the Breath of Life combining with a molded creation to become a "living soul". The other one is what Jesus speaks about in Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." It must definitely be something other than what a human can kill. So it isn't just referring to the body or something tangible. It is never said to be able to die, and if it is the Breath of Life, then all that happens to it in its natural course is that it returns to YHWH. Funnily enough that idea is also found in Ecclesiastes 12:7 "and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." (NIV), "and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the life's breath returns to God who gave it. "(NET). It appears that I am wrong then. The Author does indeed speak about something beyond the visible world. The quote you made about the dead knowing nothing most likely is then referring to the body alone as it is in the grave, which is stated at the end of that quote.. It isn't referring to the soul/ spirit/ breath of life as that is said to go back to God after death. Anyway, the soul is not said to be able to die naturally as it goes back to God, maybe having life or being kept by him, but it can only be destroyed by God, who is the one it goes back to after death.

There is still not a positive argument for its sentience though. But it is certainly immortal as God is the only one said to be able to destroy it. It cannot be destroyed through natural causes.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Being well educated in the wrong things only works in this world. That kind of education does not mean much to God, who always educated his people in the important things...those that pertain to everyday life. Living the best way possible, "making sure of the more important things".

Yet that type of education is required for doctors, lawyers, creating computer technology, creating cars and archeaologists, which JW's use to their advantage. So yeah, higher education does mean quite a bit to God, especially now that video production and the JW.org Website, originally created and improved by those with a higher education or who at least invested in in depth research into non-spiritual matters, is used by JWs to spread your message. So he educates people about important things by using unimportant things created by people in Satan's world pursuing unimportant things?

Jesus had no formal education but even in his youth could run rings around the religious leaders, confounding them with his knowledge and ability to understand the scriptures at a much higher level than they ever could. He deliberately chose uneducated men as his apostles for a good reason.....the education that the Jews received in the rabbinical system was distorted. He castigated the Pharisees for promoting their traditions over scripture. He called their teachings "leaven" (corrupting)

Jesus is by no means the average man according to the Bible. He was born special and was sinless, he was chosen to achieve God's purposes, and when he finally preached he already remembered his preexistence according to your belief, so he knew exactly what happened already. So his abilities do not count. The apostles are a good example. Paul is a good example of someone who was taught by the best but had to be reeducated to find the truth. But remember, the higher Education we are talking about isn't about religion. Your examples are only relevant if one believes that higher education helps them in a religious sense. Then again, you guys do take advantage of material written by scholars who have studied religion through higher education , so you guys inadvertently do actually approve of learning about the bible by means of higher education.

Jehovah's Witnesses receive the best education anyone could ever want or need.....how to live life in this world ruled by satan, without the distractions that lead people away from God rather than to him. (1 John 5:19; 1 John 2:15-17)

Many people want more or better education than that so your first point is wrong and assuming. Also I don't know any JW's who live a happy life, or at least one where they are entirely happy, as they struggle with guilt because of their own imperfections and there is a lot of infighting. (At least where I come from). The women who were raped and killed in Malawi under the JW persecution there for not being allowed by the organisation to get something as simple as a party card, the loads of children who were sexually abused in the organisation and those who have family members who commit suicide for being shunned, certainly might have a problem with dealing with " how to live life in this world ruled by satan". With the pedophile problem among JW's being exposed these days, it definitely reveals that the JW's fail to teach the best education when it comes to how to protect children and communities from sexual predators.

One aspect of higher education that many forget is the environment in college campuses, often the scene of immoral, drunken or drug fuelled behavior that should be unacceptable to any Christian. To place our young people in such an environment would be irresponsible to say the least. There are many ways to educate ourselves online these days, so some of our members will gain qualifications for a chosen form of employment through this means, apprenticeships or other on the job training. We do not reject higher education per se, but we do not see it as the be all and end all of life.

Ironically many JW's work in the secular world where the same threats could exist. Also, you are making a blanket statement. It doesn't apply to all college camouses or Universities. When I studied graphic design the two JW's and I never had such problems to deal with. One goes to a lecture and then leaves. No socializing needed even. Thus no exposure to these threats. Plus, ironically, it was because I attended that campus that I became a JW. It was because I was in the organisation that I left.

How many well educated people can't find a job, so they wait tables and tend bars.

I agree with you on this to a point. Attending higher education (JW's are not against basic education, they promote it) doesn't assure one of a solid job, but it certainly helps people to have a higher chance of finding a job. I would agree though that people should also invest in developing skills, such as plumbing and building, because they are in demand. (JW's often do skilled labour jobs).

Many of us would rather be window washers or office cleaners and have our days free to serve our God in the important matter of preaching the good news, before the fast approaching "end" to this current world system of things. (Matthew 24:14) Those who are slaves to this world have all their time taken up with mundane things like making money or gaining this world's measure of success, yet what are they slaving for? Most of them never have time to enjoy the things that they sacrifice their time for!

True. I follow Ecclesiastes advice though. Ecclesiastes 2:24: "Nothing is better for man than to eat and drink and enjoy his work. I have also seen that this is from the hand of God. " Work is to be enjoyed for enjoyments sake. I feel sorry for people who work unfulfilling jobs and overtime just to get a lot of money.

I live in a coastal holiday destination. There is a marina here where millions of dollars worth of water vessels of various descriptions are sitting moored at the dock and rarely see any time out of it. The people who own them have lavish holiday homes here but they are empty for most of the year. What is the point? It seems as if the status of what you own is more important that the calibre of who you are. What foolishness!!

Valid point. What foolishness.

Indeed.....I do not see anyone else doing what we do. There is so much more to being "educated" than this world will ever know. Jesus educated people with God's word.....we try to do that too.

Christian Evangelists, Seventh Day Adventists and Mormons do what you do. Also many recruitment groups such as the Moonies.

 

[tigger2]

That's interesting.... would you please provide a reference where Holy Spirit is feminine in Hebrew Scripture?

The reason I ask is, in Hebrew, Holy Spirit, is Ruach HaKodesh. HaKodesh is Masculine even though Ruach is generally thought of as Feminine.

hyperlink >>> Strong's Hebrew: 6944. קֹ֫דֶשׁ (qodesh) -- apartness, sacredness

You're right. I'm sorry I didn't go beyond looking up ruach ('spirit') and seeing it was most often feminine. I suppose I thought (as in Greek) what appeared to be the modifier of 'spirit' would agree in number and gender with it.

The point still remains that the personal names and literal titles ('God,' 'Father,' etc.) are masculine in the NT. How is it that the Holy Spirit has no personal name (or it's neuter in NT Greek) or literal title ('Sister'?)

 

[dybmh]

You're right. I'm sorry I didn't go beyond looking up ruach ('spirit') and seeing it was most often feminine. I suppose I thought (as in Greek) what appeared to be the modifier of 'spirit' would agree in number and gender with it.

The point still remains that the personal names and literal titles ('God,' 'Father,' etc.) are masculine in the NT. How is it that the Holy Spirit has no personal name (or it's neuter in NT Greek) or literal title ('Sister'?)

My personal opinion is that God is beyond gender.