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Hell isn't literal, the worst punishment is that your conscience ceases to exist.

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
In a sense you are right, because Earth is like a waiting room, and if we believe there is an afterlife far better than this life, we are waiting to get there.

“Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200

“Verily I am pleased with both you and [your husband], and I ask God that you may find pleasure and ease in another world—for this earthly world is narrow, dark and frightful, rest cannot be imagined and happiness really is non-existent, everyone is captured in the net of sorrow, and is day and night enslaved by the chain of calamity; there is no one who is at all free or at rest from grief and affliction. Still, as the believers of God are turning to the limitless world, they do not become very depressed and sad by disastrous calamities—there is something to console them; but the others in no way have anything to comfort them at the time of calamity. Whenever a calamity and a hardship occurs, they become sad and disappointed, and hopeless of the bounty and the mercy of the Glorious Lord.” Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha Abbas, pp. 263-264


I am waiting and in a sense I am looking forward to it while at the same time I am very nervous, like someone about to take a trip to somewhere they have never been, but in this case there is no return ticket back to earth. :eek:

That reminds me of what my mother-in-law once said to my husband: "I do not know if there is a heaven but I know there is a hell, because I have been in it all my life."
Ditto on that, except that I know there is a heaven. :)

That is true, God can only be discovered in the heart. That is not something I have been very successful with because I am still angry at God for having created this brutal world and making us endure it. :mad:

Hmmmm.... As I see it and experience it, life only takes, it does not give much. then again, my life has been a storehouse of suffering with no end in sight. I only have the following to cling to, if I can hang on that long. :(

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

I know what its like to lose everything that i once seemed to have. So I understand that life on earth is not the life i am referring to. In my vocabulary this is existence, and life is a word i use to describe a far better circumstance.

Your Ba'hullah has a wonderful way of words. While i do not subscribe to the religion I do not discount that he has a genuine light of truth that is perhaps inspired by God.

Nature and circumstances knocked the notion of God right out of me for awhile. Since then i am starting to get more inspired by my searches for God. I got hung up on proofs, and evidences and the apparent lack thereof. Now i am trying to approach God through a perspective that the events of this existence pale in comparison to the glory of God. My opinion is that somehow this earth is exactly what we need right now, and we all have strayed and rebelled and looked toward doing things that cause us all harm instead of good. In a sense we all deserve to be here in this frying pan.

The evils of this world and the worst things that can befall a person are a result of rebellion. Some of the most respectable humans, while you might not consider them evil, but they have contributed a lot to the destructiveness of our world; nuclear bombs, etc.

So if we are not evil, we are, still, a most destructive rebellious species. And of course God would intend us to lose are dangerous ways.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You mean consciousness. And it is not the worst punishment for people like me. Living blissfully and mindlessly in happy-land for all eternity seems worse.

Where might I find that idea (Living blissfully and mindlessly in happy-land for all eternity) in the Bible?
That is an invention of Christendom, not a teaching of Jesus Christ....not a teaching ever given to Israel.
 

Zita

Solitary Eclectic Witch
Nobody rots forever in Hell except Satan. It is also not physical torture, it is mental terror. All sin is conceived of in the mind before being acted upon. If you don't go to Heaven, the death of the spirit can be immediate or you can spend time in Hell. Eventually, your spirit will be extinguished and you will cease to exist. You also cannot be reincarnated.

Well as far as I'm concerned ,I'm coming back again to continue on my soul path or spirituality, I know alot of people don't believe in reincarnation, I believe in it because I feel The Creator didn't create us just to have us cease to exist one day, life is everlasting and I am looking forward to my next life.I believe that whatever your belief is about death while you are living,is what you will experience when you die.MY mom believed in Heaven very strongly, she was a good example of a Christian and read that bible every night, so I have no doubt in my mind that she is in heaven having a beautiful eternity. Some people believe that they will be an angel , so they can help humanity, so that's what I believe she will be.Some belief that when you die you just cease to exist.So I guess it lights out for them.Some believe in ghosts to continue to visit were they go. I think God has no problem with honoring what we believe.I wonder what the people who believe and focus on hell, is going do when they die. That's a scary thought.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
An eternity of life seems more like hell to me than non-existence. In other words, I do NOT value my consciousness to the extent that torture is preferable to non-existence.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
An eternity of life seems more like hell to me than non-existence. In other words, I do NOT value my consciousness to the extent that torture is preferable to non-existence.

An eternity of a good life wouldn't be hell. However IMO there are people that live in hell daily. Some believe hell is living and the escape is death.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Imagine what you would be like after the first million years? I think all your options would be exhausted

If heaven exits, living with no fears, no pain, no hunger, nothing but bliss wouldn't be bad even at a million years. However there is not only no evidence for god, there is also no evidence for a heaven or hell.
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
If heaven exits, living with no fears, no pain, no hunger, nothing but bliss wouldn't be bad even at a million years. However there is not only no evidence for god, there is also no evidence for a heaven or hell.
Where is free will when all you have is eternal bliss?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
If heaven exits, living with no fears, no pain, no hunger, nothing but bliss wouldn't be bad even at a million years. However there is not only no evidence for god, there is also no evidence for a heaven or hell.

Yes, I think it *would* be bad after a million years. It would be *boring*. Mind-numbingly boring. And, after a million times that, a mere trillion years, it would be nothing short of torment.

/E: truthfully, the descriptions of heaven just sound like some sort of drug trip, extended to eternity. Not a good path.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Yes, I think it *would* be bad after a million years. It would be *boring*. Mind-numbingly boring. And, after a million times that, a mere trillion years, it would be nothing short of torment.

Are you saying living in bliss forever is hell and dying and no longer existing is actually heaven?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Are you saying living in bliss forever is hell and dying and no longer existing is actually heaven?

After the first short (relatively) bit of time, yes, indeed. I would *much* rather not exist at all than be forced to live for eternity.

And I very much enjoy life. I just don't think it would be enjoyable after the first million, billion, or trillion years.

Just as a comparison, there are only a billion seconds in 31 years.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
After the first short (relatively) bit of time, yes, indeed. I would *much* rather not exist at all than be forced to live for eternity.

And I very much enjoy life. I just don't think it would be enjoyable after the first million, billion, or trillion years.

Just as a comparison, there are only a billion seconds in 31 years.

Off topic but since you are a staff member I have a question if I may ask.
I recently went to a thread and a popup said I can't reply something to do with DRI's. What is a DRI?

If this is the wrong place to ask, I apologize.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
DIR='Discuss Individual Religion'. These are forums only for discussion by those who declare they are part of said religion, except for *polite* questions from others.

From the rules:

10. Debating in Non-debate Forums or Posting in DIR/ONLY Forums
Religious forums is structured to provide spaces for many different kinds of conversations. Different kinds of conversations belong in different areas of the forum:

1) Debates should be kept to the debate areas of the forums, including Religious Debates, General Debates, and Political Debates. Debating anywhere other than these forums may result in moderation. Same Faith Debates is governed by special rules described here. Only members of the specified groups(s) can participate in these threads.

2) All DIR (Discuss Individual Religions) forums are for the use of members who identify with those groups or practices. Debating is not permitted in DIRs; debates between members of specified groups should be posted in Same Faith Debates. Members who do not identify with a DIR group may only post respectful questions; we recommend creating a thread in the Religions Q&A instead where there is more freedom to comment. DIR forums are not to be used as a cover to bash others outside of the DIR group.

3) The Political World forum has several "only" subforums that are for the use of members who identify with those political leanings. Members who do not identify with those political leanings are not allowed to post there. The staff more strictly moderate Rule 10 violations where there is some other rule violation involved, such as preaching in a DIR or trolling a political forum a member doesn't belong to. More benign violations may be subject to informal reminders or moving threads to the appropriate location.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
DIR='Discuss Individual Religion'. These are forums only for discussion by those who declare they are part of said religion, except for *polite* questions from others.

From the rules:

10. Debating in Non-debate Forums or Posting in DIR/ONLY Forums
Religious forums is structured to provide spaces for many different kinds of conversations. Different kinds of conversations belong in different areas of the forum:

1) Debates should be kept to the debate areas of the forums, including Religious Debates, General Debates, and Political Debates. Debating anywhere other than these forums may result in moderation. Same Faith Debates is governed by special rules described here. Only members of the specified groups(s) can participate in these threads.

2) All DIR (Discuss Individual Religions) forums are for the use of members who identify with those groups or practices. Debating is not permitted in DIRs; debates between members of specified groups should be posted in Same Faith Debates. Members who do not identify with a DIR group may only post respectful questions; we recommend creating a thread in the Religions Q&A instead where there is more freedom to comment. DIR forums are not to be used as a cover to bash others outside of the DIR group.

3) The Political World forum has several "only" subforums that are for the use of members who identify with those political leanings. Members who do not identify with those political leanings are not allowed to post there. The staff more strictly moderate Rule 10 violations where there is some other rule violation involved, such as preaching in a DIR or trolling a political forum a member doesn't belong to. More benign violations may be subject to informal reminders or moving threads to the appropriate location.

Thank you. That adds another reason I follow you. You are not only knowledgeable but you are also informative. You are a good person.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Where might I find that idea (Living blissfully and mindlessly in happy-land for all eternity) in the Bible?
That is an invention of Christendom, not a teaching of Jesus Christ....not a teaching ever given to Israel.

I am amazed to find out jw's do not subscribe to the notion that an eternal hell exists. I grew up with the catholic, and then the baptist teaching of eternal hell. Its still ingrained in me.

So the question arises that there is a verse in Revelation i believe, where the devil is tormented day and night in the lake of fire forever and ever?

I have a kjv 1611. I suppose an NIV is more readable.

What is the lake of fire anyways?

I must admit, i am not a believer, and find it way outside of my reality sense to believe in Eden, Jonah, Noah, Babel, and other Bible accounts.

Where does the word hell come from?

And what exactly is jw salvation?
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
This leads me to believe that probably the punishment for all the evil people is that their conscience will be erased forever from this world and they will cease to exist when they die. Good people on the contrary will have eternal life.
And all one has to do to qualify as evil is to have sex with someone of the same gender, or have sex before you're married. And why are such acts so terrible? Because god simply says they are. PERIOD!---no explanation given. And god forbid you're a Catholic and masturbate.

.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I am amazed to find out jw's do not subscribe to the notion that an eternal hell exists. I grew up with the catholic, and then the baptist teaching of eternal hell. Its still ingrained in me.

I was raised with this belief too. It is a God-dishonoring doctrine that strangely runs through all non-Christian religions as well.....an eternal horrible end for the wicked in the flames of a fiery hell. But it doesn't come from the Bible, just from a bad interpretation of certain verses. God is not a fiend. A God of love could never do something like that.

So the question arises that there is a verse in Revelation i believe, where the devil is tormented day and night in the lake of fire forever and ever?

I have a kjv 1611. I suppose an NIV is more readable.

What is the lake of fire anyways?

Not a big fan of the KJV but some more modern translations are OK. I like to compare a few translations on Biblegateway when I study. I also like to check word meanings with Strongs Concordance and reference the Tanach as well....all available online.

This is one of those verses that needs other scripture to explain it.

To what was Jesus referring when he spoke of a person’s being thrown “into hell”? Is “the eternal fire” that Jesus warned of, literal or symbolic? In what sense do the wicked “go off to eternal punishment”?

The original Greek word translated “hell” at Mark 9:47 is Geʹen·na. This word comes from the Hebrew Geh Hin·nomʹ, meaning “Valley of Hinnom.” The Valley of Hinnom hugged the outskirts of ancient Jerusalem. In the days of the Israelite kings, it was used for child sacrifice—a disgusting practice that God condemned. God said that he would execute those who performed such an act of false worship.

In Jesus’ day, the inhabitants of Jerusalem used the Valley of Hinnom as a garbage dump. They threw the bodies of some vile criminals into this dump and kept a fire constantly burning there to dispose of the refuse and the carcasses. This is the original situation from which the doctrine of a fiery hell came from. But nothing alive was ever cast into gehenna.

Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil will be cast into “the lake of fire” and “tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (King James Version)

But if the Devil were to be tortured for all eternity, God would have to preserve him alive, but the Bible says that Jesus will “destroy him.” (Hebrews 2:14 KJV)

The lake of fire represents “the second death.” (Revelation 21:8) This is not the death first mentioned in the Bible which is death that occurs because of Adam’s sin....a death from which one may be released by a resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:21-22)
Because the Bible does not say that “the lake of fire”(like hades) would release those in it, “the second death” must mean another kind of death, an irreversible one. (Revelation 20:13)

In what sense are those in “the lake of fire” tormented eternally? At times, “to torment” can mean “to restrain” someone. Jailers in ancient times were described by a word that meant "tormentors".

Once when Jesus confronted the demons, they cried out: “Art thou come hither to torment us [restrain us in the abyss] before the time?” (Matthew 8:29; Luke 8:30, 31; KJ) So all of those in “the lake” will suffer the “torment” of everlasting restraint, or “the second death.”

No one suffers anything after death because the Bible teaches that the dead are not conscious. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10)

I must admit, i am not a believer, and find it way outside of my reality sense to believe in Eden, Jonah, Noah, Babel, and other Bible accounts.

Where does the word hell come from?
It is evil enough to have come from the devil! He would enjoy torturing people forever....

But the words used in the Bible that are translated "hell" are nothing close to what the churches believe.
The Hebrew is "sheol" and the Greek is "hades". Both simply mean the grave...we all go there. We sleep peacefully in death until it is time for Christ to bring us back to life.....right here on a cleansed earth.

And what exactly is jw salvation?

Simply put, God has planned all along to take us back to the conditions of Eden, once he has dealt with the devil and all those who follow him.
God chose some to rule with Jesus in his Kingdom, but by and large the majority of mankind will enjoy paradise conditions on earth forever. (Revelation 21:2-4)

When you ask people about their visions of heaven...it all sounds just like a beautiful earth. :)
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
the worst that could happen to one person would be to die and that your conscience ceased to exist.
Many Christians make it a habit to think about "the after life"
Meanwhile forgetting to "live NOW"

The worst is that you don't use your conscience "NOW"
 
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