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Why do Jehovah's Witnesses falsify the Bible?

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@blü 2
Many biblical passages prove that Jesus is God.
  1. Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1: 8) (Matthew 28:18)
  2. Jesus is called God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)(Hebrews 1:8)(Isaiah 9:6)
  3. Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)
  4. God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1: 1 + 14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
  5. Jesus is worshiped (Acts 7:59-60)
  6. Jesus accepts prayers (John 14:13-14)
  7. Jesus and the father are one (John 10:30)
  8. God is the only Redeemer (Isaiah 43:11) = Jesus is the Redeemer (Luke 2:11)
  9. God will judge the world (Psalm 98: 9) = Jesus is the judge (Matthew 25:31-46)
  10. God is the rock (1 Samuel 2:2) = Jesus is the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4)
  11. God is the Lord of Lords (Deuteronomy 10:17) = Jesus is the Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
  12. God is the first and the last (Isaiah 44: 6) = Jesus is the first and the last (Revelation 1:17)
  13. Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2:5)
  14. Jesus demands that one should honor him as one does the father honor (John 5:23)
  15. Jesus is the Creator (Romans 11:36) (Col. 1: 16-17)
  16. Who has seen Jesus, has seen God (John 14:9)
  17. Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)
Many passages in the Bible prove that the Holy Spirit is a person.
The Bible shows in many places that the Holy Spirit is acting, and that can only be said by one person.
The Holy Spirit ...
• teaches the disciples (Luke 12:12, John 14:26, 1 Cor 2:13)
• recalls the words of the Lord (John 14:26)
• bears witness to God (John 15:26)
• convict the world of sin, justice and judgment (Jn. 16:8-11)
• leads believers into the whole truth (Jn 16:13)
• announce the coming to the disciples (Jn 16:13)
• talks about the things of the Al (Jn 16:13)
• glorify Jesus (Jn 16:14).
• speaks to believers (Acts 8:29; 10,19; 11,12; 13,2; 20,23; 21,11; 28,25)
• encourages saints (Acts 9:31)
• prevents disciples from doing anything (Acts 16.6)
• forbids disciples to do anything (Acts 16: 7)
• leads the sons(Romans 8:14, Gal 5:18)
• affirm with our spirit that we are children of God (Ro 8:16)
• helps believers in their weakness (Romans 8:26)
• uses God for believers according to (Romans 8:27)
• explore the depths of God (1 Cor 2:10)
• distributes gifts according to His will (1 Cor 12:11)
• writes on flesh-tablets of the heart (2 Cor 3: 3)
• foretells the future (1 Tim 4: 1)
• witnesses the forgiveness of sins to Christians (Heb. 10:15)
• resting on self-proclaiming Christians (1 Pet 4:14)
• speaks to meetings (Off 2,7.11.17.29; 3,6,13,22)
• explains the words of God (Rev 14,13)
• call to Jesus(Rev 22,17)

The Scriptures not only show that the Spirit of God is acting, but are also presented as someone with whom something happens.
The Holy Spirit can ...
• to be blasphemed (Mark 3:29, 30)
• be lied to (Acts 5: 3)
• be tried, that is, put to the test (Acts 5: 9)
• to be fought (Acts 7:51)
• be saddened (Eph 4,30)
• reviled (Heb 10:29)

Many passages in the Bible prove that the Holy Spirit is also God.
Many of the quoted scriptures already make it clear that the mind is not just a person but also God. But because this point is so important, I would like to shed some light on it.
First of all, the Spirit is explicitly called the Spirit of God in Holy Scripture (Gen. 1: 2, Mt 3:16).
Acts 5: 3-4 (emphasis added) is very clear: "And Peter said, Ananias, why did Satan fill your heart, that you lied to the Holy Spirit and took away the proceeds of the field? ... You have not lied to humans, but to God. "
more:
• omnipresent (Ps 139,7)
• omniscient (Isa 40,13, 1 Cor 2:11)
• Almighty (Job 26:13)
• sovereign (Jn 3: 8, 1 Cor 12: 4-11)
• eternal (Heb 9.14)
Jesus explicitly states that he has no powers of his own , only those that God allows to him ─

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”​

It follows that even if your list were to make well-based claims, which in my view it doesn't, all of Jesus' qualities would be explicable as powers which God has given his envoy Jesus.
As I said, you pick out biblical passages without considering the whole context, and that's wrong. Anyone can take a passage out of the Bible and interpret anything they want into it.
So tell me why ─

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

don't mean that Jesus acknowledges the Father as the only true god, and as the God that Jesus himself worships.

If Jesus means what he says then the Trinity notion is untenable. So don't invoke the doctrine in your explanation.
You ask me to prove. I can't give you any proof except the Bible. The Bible is my only proof.
So you don't know when the Trinity doctrine was invented? You don't know that it didn't exist before the 4th century? Then go and check it out ─ don't take my word for it, satisfy yourself that this statement is correct. (And remember, we're talking about the doctrine, not earlier ideas associating God, Jesus and the Ghost in various ways ─ they were rejected by the church.)
Whoever looks at the Bible in its entire context will also realize that the Trinity is true.
What, with Jesus NEVER ONCE SAYING, I AM GOD! ? With Jesus saying the Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD? And the God Jesus worships? And the only source of Jesus' power, in heaven and on earth? Why on earth would anyone think this meant that Jesus was anything but God's envoy? Why on earth would anyone think the Ghost was 100% of God?
Read the old testament and the new one.
As I said to you before, Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh. Not anywhere. Not even once. I already demonstrated to you that the purported readings of Isaiah are in fact hopelessly inadequate misreadings, perversion of the text. A passage about King Ahaz and his troubles with the kings to his north is NOT a foretelling of Jesus. Nor is the concept of the Trinity doctrine found anywhere in the bible, no mention of it in the Tanakh, no mention of it in the NT. And incidentally, the Tanakh's ruach, the breath / spirit of Yahweh, is a manifestation of Yahweh himself, not of any distinct divine person.
You will find, for example, parallel places. God calls himself the only Savior (Isaiah 43:11) in the Old Testament, In the New Testament we find out that Jesus is the Redeemer (Luke 2:11).
All that is dealt with by my first point above ─ Jesus himself says all his qualities are allowed to him by God, whose envoy he is. (I also dealt with them, or anyway sufficient of them, back in my first reply to you.)

As I said, if Jesus was God then letting people know who he really was would be the single most important message he could possibly have delivered. And his failure to say he was God would mean his career was based on a big lie, was one long tale of deceit.

Is that really what you're arguing for?

(I iterate that you can believe what you like. My argument is confined to the fact that the bible not only does not support what you say but contradicts it.)
 

calm

Active Member
Jesus explicitly states that he has no powers of his own , only those that God allows to him ─

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”​

It follows that even if your list were to make well-based claims, which in my view it doesn't, all of Jesus' qualities would be explicable as powers which God has given his envoy Jesus.
So tell me why ─

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

don't mean that Jesus acknowledges the Father as the only true god, and as the God that Jesus himself worships.

If Jesus means what he says then the Trinity notion is untenable. So don't invoke the doctrine in your explanation.
So you don't know when the Trinity doctrine was invented? You don't know that it didn't exist before the 4th century? Then go and check it out ─ don't take my word for it, satisfy yourself that this statement is correct. (And remember, we're talking about the doctrine, not earlier ideas associating God, Jesus and the Ghost in various ways ─ they were rejected by the church.)
What, with Jesus NEVER ONCE SAYING, I AM GOD! ? With Jesus saying the Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD? And the God Jesus worships? And the only source of Jesus' power, in heaven and on earth? Why on earth would anyone think this meant that Jesus was anything but God's envoy? Why on earth would anyone think the Ghost was 100% of God?
As I said to you before, Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh. Not anywhere. Not even once. I already demonstrated to you that the purported readings of Isaiah are in fact hopelessly inadequate misreadings, perversion of the text. A passage about King Ahaz and his troubles with the kings to his north is NOT a foretelling of Jesus. Nor is the concept of the Trinity doctrine found anywhere in the bible, no mention of it in the Tanakh, no mention of it in the NT. And incidentally, the Tanakh's ruach, the breath / spirit of Yahweh, is a manifestation of Yahweh himself, not of any distinct divine person.
All that is dealt with by my first point above ─ Jesus himself says all his qualities are allowed to him by God, whose envoy he is. (I also dealt with them, or anyway sufficient of them, back in my first reply to you.)

As I said, if Jesus was God then letting people know who he really was would be the single most important message he could possibly have delivered. And his failure to say he was God would mean his career was based on a big lie, was one long tale of deceit.

Is that really what you're arguing for?

(I iterate that you can believe what you like. My argument is confined to the fact that the bible not only does not support what you say but contradicts it.)
I've already answered all your questions. Please do not be angry, but you are not able to understand the Bible because the Holy Spirit is not with you. I could explain to you as much as I want, you would never understand. So there is no point in discussing with you further.
 

calm

Active Member
I haven't seen calm's reply to this important information, so I will post it again. Remember, if a person unknowingly repeats false information, he has merely repeated a false statement. If he has been shown the untruth and still lets it stand, he becomes a liar.

Calm post #16 and repeated in #72 written (in blue):

3. In cases where two nouns appear, and both take the same case ending, the author will often add the definite article to the word that is the subject in order to avoid confusion. John put the definite article on logos (“the Word”) instead of on theos. So, logos is the subject, and theos is the predicate nominative. In English, this results in John 1:1 being read as "and the Word was God" (instead of "and God was the word").

T2 response in black and bracketed:

[This is untrue. In Greek, as in English, such constructions frequently have the definite article for the subject and indefinite for the p.n. This is simply because it is normal to go from the definite to the general: the man was a carpenter; the church was a house; etc.

So we see that every construction parallel to John 1:1c (p.n. count noun without article found before the verb) has that p.n. translated with the indefinite article:

H 1. John 4:9 (a) - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all translations

H,W 2. John 4:19 - indefinite (“a prophet”) - all

H,W 3. John 6:70 - indefinite (“a devil”/“a slanderer”) - all

H,W 4. John 8:44(a) - indefinite (“a murderer”/“a manslayer”) - all

H,W 5. John 8:48 - indefinite (“a Samaritan”) - all

H,W 6. John 9:24 - indefinite (“a sinner”) - all

H,W 7. John 10:1 - indefinite (“a thief and a plunderer”) - all


H,W 8. John 10:33 - indefinite (“a man”) - all

H,W 9. John 18:35 - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all

H,W 10. John 18:37 (a) - indefinite (“a king”) - all

[H,W 11. John 18:37 (b) - indefinite (“a king”) - in Received Text and in 1991 Byzantine Text]

H,W 12. Jn 8:44 (b) - indefinite (“a liar”) - all

H,W 13. Jn 9:8 (a) - indefinite (“a beggar”) - all

H,W 14. Jn 9:17 - indefinite (“a prophet”) - all

H,W 15. Jn 9:25 - indefinite (“a sinner”) - all

H,W 16. Jn 10:13 - indefinite (“a hireling/hired hand”) - all

H,W 17. Jn 12:6 - indefinite (“a thief”) - all

18. 1 Jn 4:20 - indefinite (“a liar”) - all ]


The most revealing evidence of the Watchtower's bias is their inconsistent translation technique. Throughout the Gospel of John, the Greek word theon occurs without a definite article. The New World Translation renders none of these as “a god.” Even more inconsistent, in John 1:18, the NWT translates the same term as both "God" and "god" in the very same sentence.

[1. We are concerned with John's use of theos here, not theon.

2. There are 13 uses of theon in the Gospel of John. Nine of them clearly use the definite article! (two others are in a series of nouns where the initial article is understood to to apply to the others). Theon in John 10:33 does not have the article and the NWT (and NEB) translate it as "a god."

3. John 1:18 uses both theon and theos - these are not "the same term." An anarthrous accusative count noun (including theon) when used as a direct object and found before its verb is understood to be definite. Therefore the anarthrous theon in 1:18 is properly understood to be 'the god' or God. Theos in 1:18 has no article and is properly rendered "god."]

On the topic of "a God"

Your statements about "a God" are twists and you compare other biblical passages that have nothing to do with the one passage. And claiming that my source is spreading falsehoods is also a lie.

On the topic of "God is your throne"

You're not responding to my source at all, instead you discuss with me about some scholars.
I am happy for you if your bible scholars support your opinion, but I can also pick out bible scholars who support my opinion. The link I have linked to you explains everything, provides logical arguments and refutes your Bible scholars.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I've already answered all your questions. Please do not be angry, but you are not able to understand the Bible because the Holy Spirit is not with you. I could explain to you as much as I want, you would never understand. So there is no point in discussing with you further.

Do you have any idea how lame that is? Do you have an excuse for yourself?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I've already answered all your questions. Please do not be angry, but you are not able to understand the Bible because the Holy Spirit is not with you. I could explain to you as much as I want, you would never understand. So there is no point in discussing with you further.
It's your inability to hear that's the issue here. I've said nothing about the NT that isn't supported very specifically by the words of the NT.

But you wish to discontinue the discussion and that's your right.

One final thought ─ you now know that (what you've said is) the JW translation of John 1 is a legitimate translation, and not a 'lie', as you initially asserted. It might occur to you either as a Christian, or out of common decency, that you owe them an apology before you go.

That too is a matter for you, of course.
 

calm

Active Member
I haven't seen calm's reply to this important information, so I will post it again. Remember, if a person unknowingly repeats false information, he has merely repeated a false statement. If he has been shown the untruth and still lets it stand, he becomes a liar.

Calm post #16 and repeated in #72 written (in blue):

3. In cases where two nouns appear, and both take the same case ending, the author will often add the definite article to the word that is the subject in order to avoid confusion. John put the definite article on logos (“the Word”) instead of on theos. So, logos is the subject, and theos is the predicate nominative. In English, this results in John 1:1 being read as "and the Word was God" (instead of "and God was the word").

T2 response in black and bracketed:

[This is untrue. In Greek, as in English, such constructions frequently have the definite article for the subject and indefinite for the p.n. This is simply because it is normal to go from the definite to the general: the man was a carpenter; the church was a house; etc.

So we see that every construction parallel to John 1:1c (p.n. count noun without article found before the verb) has that p.n. translated with the indefinite article:

H 1. John 4:9 (a) - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all translations

H,W 2. John 4:19 - indefinite (“a prophet”) - all

H,W 3. John 6:70 - indefinite (“a devil”/“a slanderer”) - all

H,W 4. John 8:44(a) - indefinite (“a murderer”/“a manslayer”) - all

H,W 5. John 8:48 - indefinite (“a Samaritan”) - all

H,W 6. John 9:24 - indefinite (“a sinner”) - all

H,W 7. John 10:1 - indefinite (“a thief and a plunderer”) - all


H,W 8. John 10:33 - indefinite (“a man”) - all

H,W 9. John 18:35 - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all

H,W 10. John 18:37 (a) - indefinite (“a king”) - all

[H,W 11. John 18:37 (b) - indefinite (“a king”) - in Received Text and in 1991 Byzantine Text]

H,W 12. Jn 8:44 (b) - indefinite (“a liar”) - all

H,W 13. Jn 9:8 (a) - indefinite (“a beggar”) - all

H,W 14. Jn 9:17 - indefinite (“a prophet”) - all

H,W 15. Jn 9:25 - indefinite (“a sinner”) - all

H,W 16. Jn 10:13 - indefinite (“a hireling/hired hand”) - all

H,W 17. Jn 12:6 - indefinite (“a thief”) - all

18. 1 Jn 4:20 - indefinite (“a liar”) - all ]


The most revealing evidence of the Watchtower's bias is their inconsistent translation technique. Throughout the Gospel of John, the Greek word theon occurs without a definite article. The New World Translation renders none of these as “a god.” Even more inconsistent, in John 1:18, the NWT translates the same term as both "God" and "god" in the very same sentence.

[1. We are concerned with John's use of theos here, not theon.

2. There are 13 uses of theon in the Gospel of John. Nine of them clearly use the definite article! (two others are in a series of nouns where the initial article is understood to to apply to the others). Theon in John 10:33 does not have the article and the NWT (and NEB) translate it as "a god."

3. John 1:18 uses both theon and theos - these are not "the same term." An anarthrous accusative count noun (including theon) when used as a direct object and found before its verb is understood to be definite. Therefore the anarthrous theon in 1:18 is properly understood to be 'the god' or God. Theos in 1:18 has no article and is properly rendered "god."]

"This is one of the most common verses of contention between the Jehovah's Witnesses and Christians. Their false assumption is that Jesus is not God in flesh but Michael the archangel who became a man. Therefore, since they deny that Jesus is divine, they have altered the Bible in John 1:1 so that Jesus is not divine in nature. The New World Translation has added the word "a" to the verse so that it says, " . . . and the Word was agod." The correct translation of this verse is "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." This is how it is rendered in the NASB, NIV, KJV, NKJV, ASV, RSV, etc.

The New World translation is incorrect in its translation of this verse for several reasons. First of all, the Bible teaches a strict monotheism. To say that Jesus is "a god" is to suggest that there is another god besides YHWH, which is contrary to scripture (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8, etc.). Of course, the Jehovah's Witnesses will respond that Jesus is not the Almighty God, but a "lesser" kind of God. He is the "mighty God" as is referenced in Isaiah 9:6, "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us, and the government will rest on His shoulders, and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." Therefore, they say that Jesus is the mighty god but not the Almighty God.

The immediate problem with this explanation is that YHWH is also called the Mighty God in Jeremiah 32:18 and Isaiah 10:21. In all three verses, including Isaiah 9:6, the Hebrew word for "mighty" (gibbor) is used.

  • Isaiah 10:20-21, "Now it will come about in that day that the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. 21A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God."
  • Jer. 32:18, "who showest lovingkindness to thousands, but repayest the iniquity of fathers into the bosom of their children after them, O great and mighty God, the LORD of hosts is His name."
We can see that the Jehovah's Witness explanation is not valid; both the Son and God are called the Mighty God.

Furthermore, how many actual gods are there in scripture? The obvious answer is that there is only one God in existence. Though there are others who have been falsely called gods (1 Cor. 8:5-6) or even said to be "as God" like Moses (Ex. 4:16; 7:1), there is only one real God (Gal. 4:8-9; Isaiah 44:6, 8). If Jesus is "a god" that was "with God" in the beginning, then is Jesus a true god or a false god?

But, the Jehovah's Witnesses often claim that Jesus is a god in the sense that Moses was called a god; but, Moses was not called a god. Rather, he would be "as God."

  • "Moreover, he shall speak for you to the people; and it shall come about that he shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be as God to him." (Exodus 4:16).
  • "Then the Lord said to Moses, 'See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.'" (Exodus 7:1).
Why was Moses going "as God" to Pharaoh? Because Moses was given the authority and power to display powerful miracles that decimated much of Egypt. Was Moses really a god? Being "as God" with regard to the power given to perform miracles over Egypt is not the same thing as being called "a god" that was in the beginning with God. (John 1:1).

John was a strict Jew, a monotheist. Does the Jehovah's Witness really think that John would be saying that there was another God besides Jehovah even if it were Jesus? Being raised a good Jew, the Apostle John would never believe that there was more than one God in existence. Yet, he compared the word with God, said the word was God, and that the word became flesh (John 1:1, 14).

Source: John 1:1, "The word was a god" | CARM.org

1

...........................................................
 

calm

Active Member
I haven't seen calm's reply to this important information, so I will post it again. Remember, if a person unknowingly repeats false information, he has merely repeated a false statement. If he has been shown the untruth and still lets it stand, he becomes a liar.

Calm post #16 and repeated in #72 written (in blue):

3. In cases where two nouns appear, and both take the same case ending, the author will often add the definite article to the word that is the subject in order to avoid confusion. John put the definite article on logos (“the Word”) instead of on theos. So, logos is the subject, and theos is the predicate nominative. In English, this results in John 1:1 being read as "and the Word was God" (instead of "and God was the word").

T2 response in black and bracketed:

[This is untrue. In Greek, as in English, such constructions frequently have the definite article for the subject and indefinite for the p.n. This is simply because it is normal to go from the definite to the general: the man was a carpenter; the church was a house; etc.

So we see that every construction parallel to John 1:1c (p.n. count noun without article found before the verb) has that p.n. translated with the indefinite article:

H 1. John 4:9 (a) - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all translations

H,W 2. John 4:19 - indefinite (“a prophet”) - all

H,W 3. John 6:70 - indefinite (“a devil”/“a slanderer”) - all

H,W 4. John 8:44(a) - indefinite (“a murderer”/“a manslayer”) - all

H,W 5. John 8:48 - indefinite (“a Samaritan”) - all

H,W 6. John 9:24 - indefinite (“a sinner”) - all

H,W 7. John 10:1 - indefinite (“a thief and a plunderer”) - all


H,W 8. John 10:33 - indefinite (“a man”) - all

H,W 9. John 18:35 - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all

H,W 10. John 18:37 (a) - indefinite (“a king”) - all

[H,W 11. John 18:37 (b) - indefinite (“a king”) - in Received Text and in 1991 Byzantine Text]

H,W 12. Jn 8:44 (b) - indefinite (“a liar”) - all

H,W 13. Jn 9:8 (a) - indefinite (“a beggar”) - all

H,W 14. Jn 9:17 - indefinite (“a prophet”) - all

H,W 15. Jn 9:25 - indefinite (“a sinner”) - all

H,W 16. Jn 10:13 - indefinite (“a hireling/hired hand”) - all

H,W 17. Jn 12:6 - indefinite (“a thief”) - all

18. 1 Jn 4:20 - indefinite (“a liar”) - all ]


The most revealing evidence of the Watchtower's bias is their inconsistent translation technique. Throughout the Gospel of John, the Greek word theon occurs without a definite article. The New World Translation renders none of these as “a god.” Even more inconsistent, in John 1:18, the NWT translates the same term as both "God" and "god" in the very same sentence.

[1. We are concerned with John's use of theos here, not theon.

2. There are 13 uses of theon in the Gospel of John. Nine of them clearly use the definite article! (two others are in a series of nouns where the initial article is understood to to apply to the others). Theon in John 10:33 does not have the article and the NWT (and NEB) translate it as "a god."

3. John 1:18 uses both theon and theos - these are not "the same term." An anarthrous accusative count noun (including theon) when used as a direct object and found before its verb is understood to be definite. Therefore the anarthrous theon in 1:18 is properly understood to be 'the god' or God. Theos in 1:18 has no article and is properly rendered "god."]

....................
John 1:1 in a literal translation reads thus: "In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word." Notice that it says "God was the word." This is the actual word-for-word translation. It is not saying that "a god was the word." That wouldn't make sense. Let me break it down into three statements.

  1. "In beginning was the word . . . "
    (en arche en ho logos)
    1. A very simple statement that the Word was in the beginning.
  2. "and the word was with the God . . . "
    (kai ho logos en pros ton theon)
    1. This same Word was with God.
  3. "and God was the word."--Properly translated as "and the Word was God."
    (kai theos en ho logos)
    1. This same Word was God.
Regarding statement 3 above, the correct English translation is " . . . and the Word was God" and not "and God was the word." This is because if there is only one definite article ("ho"="the") in a clause where two nouns are in the nominative ("subject") form ("theos" and "logos"), then the noun with the definite article ("ho"="the") is the subject. In this case "ho logos" means that "the word" is the subject of the clause. Therefore, " . . . the Word was God"is the correct translation and not "God was the Word."1 But this does not negate the idea that John is speaking of only one God, not two, even though the Jehovah's Witnesses maintain that Jesus is "a god" or the "mighty god" as was addressed above.

Is there suddenly a new god in the text of John 1:1? It is the same God that is being spoken of in part 2 as in part 3. How do the Jehovah's Witnesses maintain that the word had somehow become a god in this context since there is only one God mentioned? Remember, the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus was Michael the Archangel. Therefore, is there any place in the Bible where an angel is called "a god" besides Satan being called the god of this world in 2 Cor. 4:3-4?

John 20:28--"Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!'"
In the Greek in John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, "ho kurios mou, kai ho theos mou," "The Lord of me, and the God of me." If Jesus was not God, but "a" god, then shouldn't Jesus have corrected Thomas? Shouldn't Jesus have said, "No, Thomas, I am not the God. I am a god."? But Jesus did not. To do so would have been ludicrous. Nevertheless, the Jehovah's Witness will say that Thomas was so stunned by Jesus' appearance that he swore. This is ridiculous because it means that Thomas, a devout man of God, swore in front of Jesus and used the Lord's name in vain in violation of Exodus 20:7. This is hardly the case since we find no New Testament equivalent of a disciple of Christ using God's name in vain.

In conclusion, John 1:1 is best translated without the "a" inserted into the text. "The Word was God" is the best translation. This way, we do not run into the danger of polytheism with Jesus being "a god." We do not have Thomas the disciple swearing and using God's name in vain; and, we do not have the problem of Jesus being a "mighty god" and yet not the God--even though God Himself is called the Mighty God (Jeremiah 32:18; Isaiah 10:21)."

Source: John 1:1, "The word was a god" | CARM.org

2
 

calm

Active Member
It's your inability to hear that's the issue here. I've said nothing about the NT that isn't supported very specifically by the words of the NT.

But you wish to discontinue the discussion and that's your right.

One final thought ─ you now know that (what you've said is) the JW translation of John 1 is a legitimate translation, and not a 'lie', as you initially asserted. It might occur to you either as a Christian, or out of common decency, that you owe them an apology before you go.

That too is a matter for you, of course.
Jehovah's Witnesses try to change the meaning of the sentence by adding the indefinite article "a" and that is a fake.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jehovah's Witnesses try to change the meaning of the sentence by adding the indefinite article "a" and that is a fake.
Their translation is entirely legitimate. You refuse to listen so you never learn, eh?

Ah well. You had your chance to do the right thing but it didn't appeal to you.
 

calm

Active Member

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
@blü 2
Many biblical passages prove that Jesus is God..
You can twist the meanings of verses to MEAN anything you WANT them to mean, but that does not mean you have PROVEN Jesus is God.

Jesus is not God, as Blu demonstrated.
God never becomes a man. God manifests Himself as a man.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49
 

calm

Active Member
You can twist the meanings of verses to MEAN anything you WANT them to mean, but that does not mean you have PROVEN Jesus is God.

Jesus is not God, as Blu demonstrated.
God never becomes a man. God manifests Himself as a man.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49
You have to consider the Bible in context, then you will realize that Jesus is the God who came into the flesh.
And besides, it doesn't do any good to show any quotes from another religion book to me. I only believe in the Bible and not in Bahai.
With this faith you have, you'll never understand the bible. Leave it and start believing in the Bible.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
You can twist the meanings of verses to MEAN anything you WANT them to mean, but that does not mean you have PROVEN Jesus is God.

Jesus is not God, as Blu demonstrated.
God never becomes a man. God manifests Himself as a man.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

Jesus is not only God, but Jehovah God!!

John 1:23 quotes Isaiah 40:3 as saying John the Baptist was to prepare the way for the LORD (Jehovah). John prepared the way before Jesus so Jesus must be LORD (Jehovah).

In Isaiah 44:8 God is the only Rock. Psalm 18:31 says, “Who is the Rock except our God”? I Corinthians 10:4, identifies Jesus as the Rock. Jesus must also then be God the Rock.

Isaiah 44:24 says that God (Jehovah) is the one who has made all things. Colossians 1:16, speaking of Christ, says that “all things were created by Him and for him”. Jesus must therefore be Jehovah God.

In Jeremiah 10:10 it says “the LORD (Jehovah) is the true God”. I John 5:20 states that Jesus is the “true God”. Jesus must be the true God.

Isaiah 43:10,11 says that “I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no savior besides Me. Jesus is the Savior (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1, etc., etc.). Jesus must be God the Savior.

Jehovah knows all things (Psalm 147:5). Jesus knows “all things.” (John 16:30). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah alone is the only one who knows the hearts of all men. (1 Kings 8:39; Jeremiah 17:9-10). Jesus knows the hearts of all men. (John 2:24-25; Rev. 2:18, 23). Jesus must be God.

Jehovah is our sanctifier. (Exodus 31:13). Jesus sanctifies us (Hebrews 10:10). Only God is the sanctifier of men. Jesus must be God.

Jehovah is our peace (Judges 6:23). Jesus is our peace (Ephesians 2:14). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6). Jesus is our righteousness. (Romans 3:21-22; 1 Corinthians 1:30). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be delivered / snatched out of His hand (Deuteronomy 32:39). Jesus is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be “snatched” out of His hand. (John 10:28). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah’s voice is “like the roar of rushing waters” (Ezekiel 43:2). Jesus’ “voice was like the sound of rushing waters” (Revelation 1:15). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is present everywhere.(Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 23:24; I Kings 8:27); Jesus is omnipresent (John 1:48; Matthew 18:20; 28:20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah’s nature does not change (Malachi 3:6). Jesus’ nature does not change. (Hebrews 13:8).

Jehovah is the only God we are to “serve”(2 Kings 17:35); Jesus (identified as the Creator in Colossians 1:16-17) is to be served (Colossians 3:24). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah the Lord is to be set apart as holy (Isaiah 8:12b-13). Jesus, as Lord, is to be set apart as holy (1 Peter 3:14b-15a).

Jehovah’s glory is not to be given to another (Isaiah 42:8). Jesus shares Jehovah’s glory (John 17:5). Jesus must be Jehovah.

God’s name is Jehovah (or Yahweh—YHWH – Isaiah 42:8). Jesus has Jehovah’s name (John 17:11; John 16:14-15). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the “mighty God” (Jeremiah 32:17-18; Isaiah 10:20-21). Jesus is the “mighty God”
(Isaiah 9:6) who is “Almighty” (Revelation 1:7-8).

Jehovah is “the first and the last” (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12). Jesus is the “first and the last” (Revelation 1:17-18; 22:12-13, 20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the “Alpha and the Omega” (Revelation 1:8; Revelation 21:6-7). Jesus is the “Alpha and the Omega” (Revelation 22:12-13, 20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah’s title is “the Holy One” (Isaiah 47:4). Jesus is “the Holy One” (Acts 3:14; John 6:69). Jesus must be Jehovah, the Holy One.

Jehovah is the “stumbling stone” of Israel (Isaiah 8:13-15). Jesus is the “stumbling stone” of Israel (1 Peter 2:6-8). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the great Judge who gives life to whom he wishes and who renders to each man “according” to his “deeds” (Psalm 98:9; Deuteronomy 32:39; Jeremiah 17:9-10). Jesus is the only judge who gives life to whom he wishes and renders to each man “according” to his “deeds” (John 5:21-22; Revelation 2:18, 23). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the great “shepherd” who leads his people to “the spring of the water of life” (Psalm 23:1-2; Revelation 21:6-7). Jesus as the “shepherd” of His people, leads them “to springs of the water of life” (John 10:11-18; Revelation 7:17). THERE IS ONLY ONE SHEPHERD –John 10:16.

Jehovah is “Lord of Lords” (Deuteronomy 10:17). Jesus is “Lord of Lords.” (Revelation 17:14; 19:16). The Father is Lord of all (Matthew 11:25; Acts 17:24). Jesus is “Lord of all.” (Acts 10:36). THERE IS ONLY ONE LORD (Jude 4) .

Jehovah created the universe (Psalm 102:25-27). Jesus created the universe (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15-19; Hebrews 1:10-12). THERE IS ONLY ONE CREATOR. (Isaiah 44:24). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jesus Must be Jehovah
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Doesn't Elohim translate directly as "Gods"? What is the motivation for people translating the word as "God"?

As a follow on, in support of what @Clear said...

I understand "Elohim" as a name or a title. Yes, the suffix indicates that the word could be plural, if it were simply a word. But as a name or a title, it's not necessarily true.

Examples:

Dennis
Lucas
James
Charles
Nicholas
etc..

All of these names end in "s", but that doesn't mean when I say, "Hello, Lucas" that I am speaking to two people.

Does that help?

edit: consider the biblical name Ephraim,
 
Last edited:

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My friend, as I said. Jehovah's Witnesses are trying to change the meaning of the sentence by adding the indefinite article "a" and this is a fake.
Read these 2 pages:
John 1:1, "The word was a god" | CARM.org
Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible?
I quote Mr Slick in italics:

This is one of the most common verses of contention between the Jehovah's Witnesses and Christians.

Please inform Mr Slick that Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians.

Their false assumption is that Jesus is not God in flesh but Michael the archangel who became a man.
Jesus says repeatedly in the NT that he's not God in the flesh or at all, and never says he's God, so as you've seen, they got that part right.

That Jesus is an example of the species 'angel' and is known as Michael in heaven and has a status and relationship with God unique for an angel is an interesting idea. It's not compatible with the Jesuses of Mark, Matthew or Luke, who have no heavenly pre-existence, but perhaps it could be made to fit with the gnostic-flavored Jesuses of Paul and of John.

Therefore, since they deny that Jesus is divine,

Where does the bible say angels aren't divine?

they have altered the Bible in John 1:1 so that Jesus is not divine in nature.

On the contrary, if we read 'Logos' as referring to Jesus / Michael, then saying he's 'a god' is clearly conferring divine status on him. He's just not THE god.

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." This is how it is rendered in the NASB, NIV, KJV, NKJV, ASV, RSV, etc.

But Mr Slick is arguing for that translation on purely theological grounds. I'm pointing out, correctly, that koine Greek theos without the definite article may legitimately be translated as 'a god' ─ and indeed if you wanted to write 'a god' in koine Greek, that's exactly how you'd say it.

Why not buy a video or book and teach yourself old Greek? Then you'd know these things yourself.

And I still think ordinary courtesy means you owe the JWs an apology.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
As a follow on, in support of what @Clear said...

I understand "Elohim" as a name or a title. Yes, the suffix indicates that the word could be plural, if it were simply a word. But as a name or a title, it's not necessarily true.

Examples:

Dennis
Lucas
James
Charles
Nicholas
etc..

All of these names end in "s", but that doesn't mean when I say, "Hello, Lucas" that I am speaking to two people.

Does that help?

edit: consider the biblical name Ephraim,

Are those names you used as examples plurals?

Ephraim means "fruitful".
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My friend, as I said. Jehovah's Witnesses are trying to change the meaning of the sentence by adding the indefinite article "a" and this is a fake.
Read these 2 pages:
John 1:1, "The word was a god" | CARM.org
Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible?
P.S.
You accused me of taking biblical quotes out of context and I asked you ─

So tell me why ─

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

don't mean that Jesus acknowledges the Father as the only true god, and as the God that Jesus himself worships.​

but you must have overlooked it.

What's the answer?
 
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