For Christians Only: The Big Picture

[Deeje]

That passage says nothing about not being aware that God is working through one.

Revelation 17:15-17....
" He said to me: “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues." 16 And the ten horns that you saw and the wild beast, these will hate the prostitute and will make her devastated and naked, and they will eat up her flesh and completely burn her with fire. 17 For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished."

OK so how is this passage NOT describing God putting thoughts into people's minds to do something that they later regretted? They think that it is their idea, completely unaware that God inspired it.

This is the destruction of "Babylon the great"...a spiritual harlot, sleeping with the Kings of the earth and feeling no shame or guilt, sitting like a queen, because of her lovers' care and protection.
This is God's judgment on false religion (all of it, including Christendom, the most disgusting part of Babylon the great) and the regret they feel over their destroying her is shown in the following verses....

Revelation 18:9-10
"And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’”

They did not decide to kill off their greatest supporter....God did, and he used them to do it by putting the thought in their minds. Too bad now for them.

That's your opinion. The church still survives. Had it been completely corrupt, it would not have survived. And it's still the largest sect of the body of Christ. Yes, there was corruption. But that corruption was not complete. The church righted itself.

By what stretch of whose imagination did the church ever right itself? It is the same church with the same beliefs that it has always held. When the time for cleansing came, (as foretold by Daniel for "the time of the end") the "wicked" shunned the opportunity to "right" themselves because they have no love for the truth.
They teach the same God dishonoring lies they have always taught, cozying up to the world that Jesus said we must be no part of. (1 John 2:15-17; 1 John 5:19; John 15:18-21; Daniel 12:4, 9-10) She is sleeping with God's enemies.

See above. This is an excellent example of a lack of critical thinking where the texts are concerned.

You just quoted Revelation out of context above, and used it out of context to support a statement that it patently does not support.

Again: see above. This, too, is an excellent example of a lack of critical thinking. As far as the texts are concerned, you're seeing a big picture that does not exist.

Disagreeing with your take on scripture is not evidence of a lack of critical thinking at all....it just disagrees with what you believe....at the end of the day there is just truth or lies. Which is which? Thankfully God knows....and he reveals his truth only to those who love it.

Apparently, then, human beings fouled up what God intended.

Well, true to Jesus' words, Christendom fouled up its interpretation. God chose the words and their true meaning remains. Only at the time of the end would the truth come to the surface and the needed 'cleansing, whitening and refining' take place. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10) Why would God need to clean up his worship if it had not been contaminated with filth and impurities?

That is the textbook definition of blind faith.

LOL, and yet it is exactly what Jesus taught us to have....not blind faith, but trust in the God who authored his word. It is Jesus who said "it is written", and when correcting the Pharisees whom he said were "blind guides" leading other blind ones to their death, he used God's word.

To doubt the words of the Bible is to doubt God's existence, his power and the inevitability of his will. If your faith has its eyes wide open, then how are those of your faith obeying Christ's commands? How are we to be "no part of the world"? How are we to obey Matthew 28:19-20? Matthew 24:14 is being fulfilled as we speak....but who is doing it?

 

[Deeje]

The bible many times raises more questions than it answers. That's how we grow: by questioning.

Well, there is proof right there that you have no idea about what the Bible teaches. What questions does it raise that can't be answered by those who know it's truth. Cleaning up our worship got rid of all the unanswered questions because that is where they all came from.....misinterpretation that happened centuries ago. The truth is simple, not complicated at all. The important questions are ALL answered.

The church Jesus started is the one that provided the bible with more than just 66 books. The church that Jesus started is the one you call "fake."

The "fake" church has nothing to do with Jesus and never has....it is a complete departure from what he taught. He foretold that the seeds of this apostasy were sown while men were "sleeping". Whether that meant after the death of the apostles or it meant those who were asleep spiritually, the result is the same. Jesus says he 'NEVER knew them'......"never" means "not ever" so, never did he recognize them as his own. Once that level of corruption led to abuse of power and bloodshed, Christ left the building. Christendom is not "Christianity" by any Biblical definition.

Here's another glaring example of taking a bit of text completely out f context. The parable of the wheat and weeds has nothing to do with passing judgment on the church. It has everything to do with the overall message of Matthew (indeed, it's the central message of Matthew), which is inclusiveness.
Again, this post is your opinion, not fact. This is an instance of you not liking what you hear and justifying why you won't have faith in the church. How do you know the doctrines are "false?" You don't.

Tied in with the rest of Christ's teachings it fits perfectly with the foretold apostasy.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 gives us all this.....

"1 However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement* or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah* is here.

3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god."

The apostasy was a foregone conclusion. Reading Paul's words we get a picture of who is spoken about here.

"6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence."

You see there that the apostasy was "already at work" even before the apostles died. They were the ones acting as a restraint until the word of God was completed. The last books of the Christian scriptures being written by John at the close of the first century. Once the apostles were gone, the "weeds" did what weeds do best....they flourished and took over the whole field. Roman Catholicism was a fusion of weak apostate Christianity and pagan sun worship. All of her doctrines were adoptions from pagan worship, rebranded as "Christianity", fed to the masses as truth, and still practiced to this day.

Now some say that 'miracles' are an evidence of holy spirit in operation, but Paul goes on to crush that assumption....it is after all the method by which the "saints" are canonized by the Catholic church.

"9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

If this is so, then all of us were in need of a wake up call. It came...but who heeded it? Not the majority, because they never do. Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life because they don't want to travel a "cramped and narrow road" (Matthew 7:13-14)....but taking the easy way only leads to death. If we are not on the right road by our own choice, we have sealed our own fate.

That is the Christian message as I understand it...like it or not, I believe that we are all putting ourselves either on side with God, or on the side of his enemy. There are only "sheep" and "goats" in this world, so we are all either one or the other.

 

[sooda]

Revelation 17:15-17....
" He said to me: “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues." 16 And the ten horns that you saw and the wild beast, these will hate the prostitute and will make her devastated and naked, and they will eat up her flesh and completely burn her with fire. 17 For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished."

OK so how is this passage NOT describing God putting thoughts into people's minds to do something that they later regretted? They think that it is their idea, completely unaware that God inspired it.

This is the destruction of "Babylon the great"...a spiritual harlot, sleeping with the Kings of the earth and feeling no shame or guilt, sitting like a queen, because of her lovers' care and protection.
This is God's judgment on false religion (all of it, including Christendom, the most disgusting part of Babylon the great) and the regret they feel over their destroying her is shown in the following verses....

Revelation 18:9-10
"And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’”

They did not decide to kill off their greatest supporter....God did, and he used them to do it by putting the thought in their minds. Too bad now for them.



By what stretch of whose imagination did the church ever right itself? It is the same church with the same beliefs that it has always held. When the time for cleansing came, (as foretold by Daniel for "the time of the end") the "wicked" shunned the opportunity to "right" themselves because they have no love for the truth.
They teach the same God dishonoring lies they have always taught, cozying up to the world that Jesus said we must be no part of. (1 John 2:15-17; 1 John 5:19; John 15:18-21; Daniel 12:4, 9-10) She is sleeping with God's enemies.



Disagreeing with your take on scripture is not evidence of a lack of critical thinking at all....it just disagrees with what you believe....at the end of the day there is just truth or lies. Which is which? Thankfully God knows....and he reveals his truth only to those who love it.



Well, true to Jesus' words, Christendom fouled up its interpretation. God chose the words and their true meaning remains. Only at the time of the end would the truth come to the surface and the needed 'cleansing, whitening and refining' take place. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10) Why would God need to clean up his worship if it had not been contaminated with filth and impurities?



LOL, and yet it is exactly what Jesus taught us to have....not blind faith, but trust in the God who authored his word. It is Jesus who said "it is written", and when correcting the Pharisees whom he said were "blind guides" leading other blind ones to their death, he used God's word.

To doubt the words of the Bible is to doubt God's existence, his power and the inevitability of his will. If your faith has its eyes wide open, then how are those of your faith obeying Christ's commands? How are we to be "no part of the world"? How are we to obey Matthew 28:19-20? Matthew 24:14 is being fulfilled as we speak....but who is doing it?

The spiritual harlot is Israel..

 

[Hockeycowboy]

All acts of God on the 7th day are Past. Tense. If the 7th day is ongoing, the verbs would be in present tense. But they're not. Because the 7th day is over.

Actually, Paul’s letter to the Christians in Jerusalem indicate the 7th Rest Day was still continuing. See Hebrews 4.

 

[sooda]

Genesis was clearly written without the concept of the Greek Satan. The Genesis account clearly is using the symbol of the serpent to describe wisdom. That's why the caduceus is the symbol of the medical profession. The serpent stands for wisdom, not deception. In several older accounts (from which Genesis is derived), wisdom comes in the form of a pariah.


Their eyes were opened, according to the texts. They acquired the knowledge of good and evil -- just as Wisdom had told them.


I don't see how that theologically follows. The devil is unnecessary to salvation.


Except that Jesus was dealing with the nation of Israel, not individuals. If Jesus is Messiah, Jesus is Messiah of the nation of Jews -- not just individuals.


Ditto.

I doubt they have ever heard of the caduceus.... or know anything about the snake cults that predated Judaism in Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Levant, Arabia and the Indus Valley.

Scriptures are hard to understand especially if you are lacking in education or unwilling to do the work.

 

[sojourner]

Actually, Paul’s letter to the Christians in Jerusalem indicate the 7th Rest Day was still continuing. See Hebrews 4.

Paul has absolutely no bearing on what the writers of Genesis meant. If we’re exegete Genesis, we gotta stay on task with Genesis.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Paul has absolutely no bearing on what the writers of Genesis meant. If we’re exegete Genesis, we gotta stay on task with Genesis.

Many accounts in the Scriptures, are clarified by other Scriptures!
It’s all from one Author, anyways. It’s therefore harmonious.
If you don’t use all of the Scriptures to interpret it, I believe you just cant get an accurate understanding.

I can guarantee, you need Genesis to explain parts of Romans... and to understand many of Jesus’ statements.

Take care.

 

[sojourner]

I believe that is your opinion, no matter how many people share it....remember the example of Jesus and his apostles? Whose opinion was shared by the majority back then, leading to the murder of their own savior? Majority opinion is deceptive. (Remember Noah's day too)

Logic isn't subject to opinion. Logic isn't subject to a popularity contest. Your defense is moot.

It's illogical to you

Logic is logic.

How many actually agree with your particular form of Christianity.....? Just curious...

Wait... I thought you just said that "majority opinion is deceptive." Now you're arguing the other way. It's an entertaining dance you're doing, but I like the hippos better in Fantasia.

You can call whatever you like....there is another god working in opposition to Jehovah. He is clearly identified in the Bible, and his agenda has never changed. This "angel of light" is capable of "blinding minds" (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) which is so much more successful than just blinding eyes. A blinded mind prevents information from all the senses from being processed correctly in the brains information processing center. But the good thing is, that this can only occur with "unbelievers".

Oh yes. Drag Satan into it. What this particular argument of yours really boils down to is this: "I'm right, because I believe I'm right. I believe you're wrong. Therefore, the devil's got hold of you."

IOW, it's ok for YOU and the people who share your belief to not be cognizant of when God is working in you. But it's not ok for ME to have a blinded mind. When your mind is blinded, somehow, magically, it's "God." When my mind is blinded, somehow, magically, it's "Satan."

Double standard much?

The "wheat" are the believers, the ones invited by God into a relationship with him through his son...(John 6:65)....the "weeds" are the ones sown by the devil to become counterfeit "Christians" who were to be identified by Jesus at the judgment as claiming 'all the things they did in the name of their Lord' but being rejected by him as those he "never knew". (Matthew 7:21-23) Do the fake Christians know that they are fakes? Apparently not. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) They are under a delusion of their own invention and they love it, so God lets them keep it.

<Yawn>

If you were actually presenting an exegesis of Matthew, I might take note. I might even be interested. As it is, this is nothing but unfounded blather. You've managed somehow (against your own assertion that you don't take little verses out of context) to include three different books in an interpretation of one ingle book. I'm not interested in your "theological" wandering about. Give me some meat, I might chew it. As it is, this is theological empty calories.

 

[sojourner]

Many accounts in the Scriptures, are clarified by other Scriptures!
It’s all from one Author, anyways. It’s therefore harmonious.
If you don’t use all of the Scriptures to interpret it, I believe you just cant get an accurate understanding.

I can guarantee, you need Genesis to explain parts of Romans... and to understand many of Jesus’ statements.

Take care.

No, I'm afraid that in the exegetical world that's not How It Works. Texts stand on their own. We especially can't use a much later writer from a different culture to explain what earlier writers meant to say.

And no, Genesis had four authors. None of the them wrote any of the NT.

No, I don't need Genesis to explain parts of Romans. How in the world can authors who had no concept of Rome, Paul, Jesus, or an as yet unwritten letter explain what didn't yet exist? Can you explain something that has not entered your sphere of awareness yet? Didn't think so.

This nonsense that "the bible all has one author" is apologetic smoke and mirrors. And it won't wash here. What you "believe" to be the case in understanding texts obviously doesn't work in the real world of exegetical scholarship.

 

[sooda]

Many accounts in the Scriptures, are clarified by other Scriptures!
It’s all from one Author, anyways. It’s therefore harmonious.
If you don’t use all of the Scriptures to interpret it, I believe you just cant get an accurate understanding.

I can guarantee, you need Genesis to explain parts of Romans... and to understand many of Jesus’ statements.

Take care.

Nope.. You have set up an obstacle to understanding scriptures which were written over a 700 year period by dozens of different authors. It has been repeatedly redacted and amended.

You need to be specific. Who wrote it? When did they live? Who are they talking to ? What was happening in their world politically at the time. It will really help you with Isaiah, Daniel,Thessalonians, Revelation and even books like Job.

 

[sooda]

Logic isn't subject to opinion. Logic isn't subject to a popularity contest. Your defense is moot.


Logic is logic.


Wait... I thought you just said that "majority opinion is deceptive." Now you're arguing the other way. It's an entertaining dance you're doing, but I like the hippos better in Fantasia.


Oh yes. Drag Satan into it. What this particular argument of yours really boils down to is this: "I'm right, because I believe I'm right. I believe you're wrong. Therefore, the devil's got hold of you."

IOW, it's ok for YOU and the people who share your belief to not be cognizant of when God is working in you. But it's not ok for ME to have a blinded mind. When your mind is blinded, somehow, magically, it's "God." When my mind is blinded, somehow, magically, it's "Satan."

Double standard much?


<Yawn>

If you were actually presenting an exegesis of Matthew, I might take note. I might even be interested. As it is, this is nothing but unfounded blather. You've managed somehow (against your own assertion that you don't take little verses out of context) to include three different books in an interpretation of one ingle book. I'm not interested in your "theological" wandering about. Give me some meat, I might chew it. As it is, this is theological empty calories.

You need to understand the snake cults that predate Genesis and the nature of the Ouroboros. The ancient Jews understood it..

 

[sooda]

No, I'm afraid that in the exegetical world that's not How It Works. Texts stand on their own. We especially can't use a much later writer from a different culture to explain what earlier writers meant to say.

And no, Genesis had four authors. None of the them wrote any of the NT.

No, I don't need Genesis to explain parts of Romans. How in the world can authors who had no concept of Rome, Paul, Jesus, or an as yet unwritten letter explain what didn't yet exist? Can you explain something that has not entered your sphere of awareness yet? Didn't think so.

This nonsense that "the bible all has one author" is apologetic smoke and mirrors. And it won't wash here. What you "believe" to be the case in understanding texts obviously doesn't work in the real world of exegetical scholarship.

Do you suppose he really doesn't know that Romans was a letter written to the Romans late in the first century AD?

 

[sojourner]

Revelation 17:15-17....
" He said to me: “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues." 16 And the ten horns that you saw and the wild beast, these will hate the prostitute and will make her devastated and naked, and they will eat up her flesh and completely burn her with fire. 17 For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished."

OK so how is this passage NOT describing God putting thoughts into people's minds to do something that they later regretted? They think that it is their idea, completely unaware that God inspired it.

This is the destruction of "Babylon the great"...a spiritual harlot, sleeping with the Kings of the earth and feeling no shame or guilt, sitting like a queen, because of her lovers' care and protection.
This is God's judgment on false religion (all of it, including Christendom, the most disgusting part of Babylon the great) and the regret they feel over their destroying her is shown in the following verses....

Revelation 18:9-10
"And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’”

They did not decide to kill off their greatest supporter....God did, and he used them to do it by putting the thought in their minds. Too bad now for them.

That's very nice. Unfortunately, it doesn't say what you claim it says. Congratulations! You've managed to completely waste a lotta bandwidth.

By what stretch of whose imagination did the church ever right itself?

By what stretch of whose imagination did the church NOT right itself?

It is the same church with the same beliefs that it has always held.

It's the same church that gave you the bible you so idolize (never mind that you chopped it up).

Disagreeing with your take on scripture is not evidence of a lack of critical thinking at all

A lack of your critical thinking, though, is what causes you to disagree with me.

Thankfully God knows....and he reveals his truth only to those who love it.

Oh, yes. "I'm right because I believe I'm right, and I say that God said I'm right." This is second only to the Kindergarten fallacy: "Nuh-Uh!"

Well, true to Jesus' words, Christendom fouled up its interpretation.

We're not talking about interpretation. We're talking about the process of canonization.

LOL, and yet it is exactly what Jesus taught us to have....not blind faith, but trust in the God who authored his word. It is Jesus who said "it is written", and when correcting the Pharisees whom he said were "blind guides" leading other blind ones to their death, he used God's word.

Jesus also said (on several occasions): "It is written … but I tell you …" when correcting texts.

To doubt the words of the Bible is to doubt God's existence, his power and the inevitability of his will.

God's existence neither stands nor falls on the bible.

If your faith has its eyes wide open, then how are those of your faith obeying Christ's commands?

We follow the Apostles' teaching and fellowship, the breaking of bread, and the prayers.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Wow, what obfuscation!

No, I don't need Genesis to explain parts of Romans. How in the world can authors who had no concept of Rome, Paul, Jesus, or an as yet unwritten letter explain what didn't yet exist? Can you explain something that has not entered your sphere of awareness yet? Didn't think so.

I was talking about death as a subject, not “Rome”, etc.

 

[sooda]

Wow, what obfuscation!



I was talking about death as a subject, not “Rome”, etc.

Why did you bring up Romans if you don't understand the who, what, how, when and why?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Why did you bring up Romans if you don't understand the who, what, how, when and why?

I do.

Take care....hope your searches turn out beneficial for you, my cousin!

 

[sooda]

I do.

Take care....hope your searches turn out beneficial for you, my cousin!

The apostle Paul wrote the Book of Romans during the early reign of Nero, when Christian persecution was just beginning. Amazingly, the persecution only became worse near the end of the first century under Emperor Domitian.
The Early Christian Church at Rome - learnreligions.com
www.learnreligions.com/the-early-church-at-rome-363409


Romans - Early Christian Writings: New Testament ...
www.earlychristianwritings.com/romans.html
Information on Romans. Romans is one of the four letters of Paul known as the Hauptbriefe, which are universally accepted as authentic. It is typically dated c. 57 CE. Charles D. Myers, Jr., writes on the place of Romans in the genuine correspondence of Paul ( The Anchor Bible Dictionary, v. 5, p.

 

[sojourner]

Well, there is proof right there that you have no idea about what the Bible teaches.

Well there's proof that you have no idea what I do or do not know about the bible.

Cleaning up our worship got rid of all the unanswered questions because that is where they all came from.....misinterpretation that happened centuries ago. The truth is simple, not complicated at all. The important questions are ALL answered.

Yes, the truth is simple. And the truth is that God is mystery. God cannot be fully known. God is the unnameable One. You have removed that by insisting that God's "proper" name is a bastardization of the Tetragrammaton. If we have no mystery to reach for -- if there are no unanswered questions, then 1) we stop growing and worse, 2) we become "like God," as Genesis says.

The "fake" church has nothing to do with Jesus and never has

This "fake church" gave you the bible. Therefore, if the church that gave you the bible is fake, then the bible it gave you must also be fake. See? This is the illogic of your postings.

Christ left the building. Christendom is not "Christianity" by any Biblical definition.

Of course it is. You just don't want to see it that way. Your loss.

Tied in with the rest of Christ's teachings it fits perfectly with the foretold apostasy.

Except that its' not about the "foretold apostasy." It is about how Matthew thinks Judaism turned from God's ways. Congratulations! You've managed to undermine Matthew's message by breaking one of the rules of the exegetical process. You've managed to muddy the waters in your futile quest to "have all the answers."

That is the Christian message as I understand it

You understand little.

I believe that we are all putting ourselves either on side with God, or on the side of his enemy.

That's the antithesis of the whole issue for Matthew: There aren't sides. Wheat and weeds grow up together. Sheep and goats share pasture.

There are only "sheep" and "goats" in this world, so we are all either one or the other.

Yes. Sheep AND goats -- not sheep OR goats. You've gotten it wrong. As I said, it's skewed your thinking.

 

[sojourner]

You need to understand the snake cults that predate Genesis and the nature of the Ouroboros. The ancient Jews understood it..

What does this have to do with my post? I don't get it...

 

[sooda]

What does this have to do with my post? I don't get it...

Oh I am sorry.. I intended the message to some one else.