• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Study: Psychiatric Diagnoses Are ‘Scientifically Meaningless’ In Treating Mental Health

Cooky

Veteran Member
LIVERPOOL, England — No two people are exactly alike. Therefore, attempting to classify each unique individual’s mental health issues into neat categories just doesn’t work. That’s the claim coming out of the United Kingdom that is sure to ruffle some psychologists’ feathers.

“Perhaps it is time we stopped pretending that medical-sounding labels contribute anything to our understanding of the complex causes of human distress or of what kind of help we need when distressed.” Professor John Read comments.

Study: Psychiatric Diagnoses Are 'Scientifically Meaningless' In Treating Mental Health - Study Finds
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Skwim

Veteran Member
.

Who is John Anderer, and why should we care what he thinks? Ah yes, a traveler, a Stephen King wanna be, and for seven years a sometime dabbler in things scientific.

John Anderer
Originally from Long Island, John has been writing professionally for over 7 years. When he isn’t writing about the latest scientific studies, you can find him working on his first horror novel. John splits his time between the United States and Kraków, Poland.​

Sorry, . . . . . .



.
 
Last edited:

Cooky

Veteran Member
.

Who is John Anderer, and why should we care what he thinks? Ah yes, a traveler, a wanna be Stephen King, and for seven years a sometime dabbler in things scientific.

John Anderer
Originally from Long Island, John has been writing professionally for over 7 years. When he isn’t writing about the latest scientific studies, you can find him working on his first horror novel. John splits his time between the United States and Kraków, Poland.​

Sorry, . . . . . .



.

...Huh..?

"John Read is a psychologist and mental health researcher from England. He is Professor of Clinical Psychology in the University of East London's School of Psychology. Read was formerly a clinical psychologist in the Department of Psychology at the University of Auckland."

"Read worked for twenty years as a manager of mental health services, working with people experiencing psychosis. He is the Editor of the journal Psychosis and is on the editorial boards of two other journals. He is also on the Executive Board of the International Society for the Psychological Treatments of Schizophrenia."

John Read (psychologist) - Wikipedia
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
LIVERPOOL, England — No two people are exactly alike. Therefore, attempting to classify each unique individual’s mental health issues into neat categories just doesn’t work. That’s the claim coming out of the United Kingdom that is sure to ruffle some psychologists’ feathers.

“Perhaps it is time we stopped pretending that medical-sounding labels contribute anything to our understanding of the complex causes of human distress or of what kind of help we need when distressed.” Professor John Read comments.

Study: Psychiatric Diagnoses Are 'Scientifically Meaningless' In Treating Mental Health - Study Finds

I'm not a clinician but I have worked in the mental health field so I have some experience with this. I didn't read the entire paper, just the abstract. But I'll read it later, it sounds fascinating and insightful.

The DSM has been updated repeatedly for just the reasons the paper talks about. Diagnoses seem helpful as ways of organizing clusters of symptoms, but I don't think they are the end-all-be-all that should dictate treatment. Treatment has to be based on the needs, history, etc. Of the individual. The relationship/rapport between the patient and her therapist or psychiatrist is also hugely influential in treatment outcomes.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
It does actually make a difference. It opens avenues for treatment (making it a necessity for insurance), and its far too easy to list examples all day where it does make a difference, such as with schizophrenia and bi-polar disorder. And, with the study, di they not realize even in physical health things overlap, look alike, and mistakes are made?
 

Howard Is

Lucky Mud
I read this book about twenty years ago.
It’s central premise is that authentic communication, not correct labelling and government-managed welfare agencies, is crucial to effective psychotherapy.

The book examines the unfortunate transmogrification of the practice of psychotherapy in the UK as government bureaucracy took control, and reduced many psychologists to functional public servants, ticking boxes and meeting mission statements.

Cultivating Intuition : Peter Lomas : 9780876685280

Sigmund Freud would be jailed nowadays for the methods which revealed incest rape as the primary cause of the mysterious ‘hysteria’ which affected so many young women.

Hysteria. Now there is a sexist victim blaming subliminal...

He was almost run out of town for revealing that ‘good families’ were destroying their daughters’ mental health.

He also conducted his psychoanalysis using cocaine, for both him and his client.

Modern governments want to define sanity, and oversee therapeutic methods.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
LIVERPOOL, England — No two people are exactly alike. Therefore, attempting to classify each unique individual’s mental health issues into neat categories just doesn’t work. That’s the claim coming out of the United Kingdom that is sure to ruffle some psychologists’ feathers.

“Perhaps it is time we stopped pretending that medical-sounding labels contribute anything to our understanding of the complex causes of human distress or of what kind of help we need when distressed.” Professor John Read comments.

Study: Psychiatric Diagnoses Are 'Scientifically Meaningless' In Treating Mental Health - Study Finds
Mental illness is easy to explain using analogies.
I can use the analogy mental illness is a virus, that the majority carry, mental illness is the out break of that virus in a percentage of the population based on the persons life, experiences choices and neurology and genetics.
Easy... And that anology is old in new clothing.

Jesus said "before you point out others slivers check your own eye carefully. "

Socrates said "you are staring at the cave walls turn around"


So you see nothing i have said is new at all!!!! Just repeated with new clothing, to catch the eye that only knows clothing is all.

Jesus said "while you worry about your clothing, the lily neither toils nor spins"

Am i a "christian" no..... I am a shepard, i do not believe, i do not not believe nor agnostic. I stand behind the flock and see the flock they dont see me because of a sliver they believe. They get together with they who do not believe and those that are agnostic and argue whose sliver is correct!!! All three stare at the shadows on the cave walls and debate the shadows and that is all.

Breathing way way underappreciated, rarely practiced mostly just in lazy mode automatic, and the world, nature, reality becomes just automatic background when this happens.

Mental illness is first neurosis and secondly laziness, even to the point of ignoring breathing. Ask the severly menatlly il about breathimg and they freak get mad and scurry to the nearest cave. Lazy creatures they are. For, no pain is no gain. To Breathe apparently hurts it messes with their fantasies. So be it.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
...Huh..?

"John Read is a psychologist and mental health researcher from England. He is Professor of Clinical Psychology in the University of East London's School of Psychology. Read was formerly a clinical psychologist in the Department of Psychology at the University of Auckland."

"Read worked for twenty years as a manager of mental health services, working with people experiencing psychosis. He is the Editor of the journal Psychosis and is on the editorial boards of two other journals. He is also on the Executive Board of the International Society for the Psychological Treatments of Schizophrenia."

John Read (psychologist) - Wikipedia
Not talking about John Read, but John Anderer, the author of the piece you linked to.

.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Mental illness is first neurosis and secondly laziness, even to the point of ignoring breathing. Ask the severly menatlly il about breathimg and they freak get mad and scurry to the nearest cave. Lazy creatures they are. For, no pain is no gain. To Breathe apparently hurts it messes with their fantasies. So be it.
I have a few mental illnesses. No one would say I'm lazy. In fact, most people with a mental illness aren't, and a small percentage are profoundly ill to the point of disability. They are not lazy either. You want to quote Jesus, but at the same time you say "screw the ill." And get your facts and i formation straight, because some mental illnesses involve neurosis, some don't. It isnt "this first then that." Its an illness, no different really than someone getting a flu. But those damned lazy bedridden flu sufferers!:mad:
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
And, btw, how much clinical experience do you have working with the mentally ill?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Cooky

Veteran Member
And, btw, how much clinical experience do you have working with the mentally ill?

I know it was directed to another, but while I personally have no clinical experience in the field, I've been interested in psychology ever since my experimentation with psychadelics back in the 90's.

...The concept of "thinking about thinking" was an epiphinal experience... A point of enlightenment, one might say.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Yes, you successfully shot the messenger. :)
Those reporting on science journals often play a role in why people don't understand them. Such as the "god particle," which is not what scientists call the Higgs boson, but rather the word used by a journalist who didn't understand what was said.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Fact. 100 people on a boat and 2 throw up on their feet. 2%.
Fact. The throwing up can be mitigated through medication.
Fact. The medication does not cure the underlying issues.
Fact. Of those 2%. Rarely do any deal with the underlaying issues.
Fact. The boat is the issue. Getting off the boat is hard.
Fact. The only thing they know is the boat.
Fact. Many over time find the medications working less and less. The increase indosage and changes in medications required.
Fact. Some manage to stablize on medications and function while on the boat.
Fact. Some do not.
Fact. Gettimg off the boat is the hardest thing to do.
When the good boat lazies name is culture.

I have empathy Wolf a ton way way more than you realize. I know the task, because i got off the boat myself. Its the hardest work i will ever have done. When ypu have actually done the hard work walked it been there, then you turn back to the boat and see, the confusion and the difficulty.

But fear is what is the problem and we cling to that fear like everyone else on the boat. What ever that might be. My deepest fear was what caused my throwing up.

If you can guess my deepest fear well we can talk. But i dont think so its too obvious. What i feared came true. Peace. And when i say stay in the meds its a choice we make at a deeper level in relationship to our fears.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I have empathy
You called those of us with a mental illness lazy, said we wallow in self pity, and now give an inaccurate metaphor. You have no empathy for us. You think were all the same and all have the same struggles. For many of us, there is no "getting off the boat" because our illnesses are life long. You don't have empathy, you're another cold prick who instead of listening wants to say "I did it so everyone can" and give delusional beliefs about the mentally ill instead of actually learning about them.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You called those of us with a mental illness lazy, said we wallow in self pity, and now give an inaccurate metaphor. You have no empathy for us. Youre a judgemental ******* who thinks were all the same and all have the same struggles. For many of us, there is no "getting off the boat" because our illnesses are life long. You don't have empathy, you're another cold prick who instead of listening wants to say "I did it so everyone can" and give delusional beliefs about the mentally ill instead of actually learning about them.
Well stay on the boat then. Thats the easy. What is hard is to get off the boat. Really really really hard.

No judgementalism i have been on the boat throwing up and walked off it. Dont pretend i would suggest be honest with yourself first. Pretending is well normal. Dont be normal.

I could have hurled a worse insult oh you are totally normal wolf. You are normal as the day is long you love normal.

Wolf you are not remotely normal your gift is your curse. If you insist on letting your special gift be a curse well thats like a great musican convined they are destined to flip burgers. Sorry you are gifted i refuse to let you go around pretending otherwise. If you get offended at me for mocking you flipping burgers do be it flip burgers.

Your potential is great being wasted. That annoys me. Lazy is what that is.

I dont have a "low" opinion of you personally , i have high expectations that you can do this. I know i have.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Well stay on the boat then. Thats the easy. What is hard is to get off the boat. Really really really hard.

No judgementalism i have been on the boat throwing up and walked off it. Dont pretend i would suggest be honest with yourself first. Pretending is well normal. Dont be normal.

I could have hurled a worse insult oh you are totally normal wolf. You are normal as the day is long you love normal.

Wolf you are not remotely normal your gift is your curse. If you insist on letting your special gift be a curse well thats like a great musican convined they are destined to flip burgers. Sorry you are gifted i refuse to let you go around pretending otherwise. If you get offended at me for mocking you flipping burgers do be it flip burgers.

Your potential is great being wasted. That annoys me. Lazy is what that is.

I dont have a "low" opinion of you personally , i have high expectations that you can do this. I know i have.
Do you know anything about neurochemistry?
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Mental illness is easy to explain using analogies.
I can use the analogy mental illness is a virus, that the majority carry, mental illness is the out break of that virus in a percentage of the population based on the persons life, experiences choices and neurology and genetics.
Easy... And that anology is old in new clothing.
Right, so what you've established here is that mental illness can result due to a variety of factors, including life experiences, neurology and genetics, none of which can be altered; we can't change the past, and we don't have the ability to alter the structure of somebody's brain, and neurochemistry can be a really fickle thing to tinker with.

So, there are a great many people who can't "get off the boat" as you put it. They cannot change their neural pathways and rearrange the physical structure of their brains or change their genetic code.

Jesus said "before you point out others slivers check your own eye carefully. "

Socrates said "you are staring at the cave walls turn around"


So you see nothing i have said is new at all!!!! Just repeated with new clothing, to catch the eye that only knows clothing is all.

Jesus said "while you worry about your clothing, the lily neither toils nor spins"

Am i a "christian" no..... I am a shepard, i do not believe, i do not not believe nor agnostic. I stand behind the flock and see the flock they dont see me because of a sliver they believe. They get together with they who do not believe and those that are agnostic and argue whose sliver is correct!!! All three stare at the shadows on the cave walls and debate the shadows and that is all.

Breathing way way underappreciated, rarely practiced mostly just in lazy mode automatic, and the world, nature, reality becomes just automatic background when this happens.

Mental illness is first neurosis and secondly laziness, even to the point of ignoring breathing. Ask the severly menatlly il about breathimg and they freak get mad and scurry to the nearest cave. Lazy creatures they are. For, no pain is no gain. To Breathe apparently hurts it messes with their fantasies. So be it.
Here's what I want you to do. Read the first part of your post that I quoted above, and use your brain cells to logically deduct what that means. Then I want you to read this part of your post again and see how you have completely contradicted yourself. First you say that mental illness often results due to circumstances that are completely out of a person's control, and there is often no cure or fix for them. And then you turn right back around and say that anyone who has a mental illness is just a lazy, godless, LARPing snowflake.

Pick a story and stick with it.

Here's a Bible verse or two for you from 1 Corinthians 13:
1 If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal . . . 4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Do you know anything about neurochemistry?
I know the question is nothing but neuro-chemistry and nothing more. So yes very familiar. Stating that which is self evident zero science needed actually. So your (neurochemistry speaking) question? Btw it unto itself cant be objective. Its neuro chemistry talking about neuro chemistry. As if its independent from neuro chemistry if it thinks its "objective". That is an illusion otherwise.
 
Top