What does the Bible say about the origins of the Earth in relation to what science say?

[shmogie]

Nope as distance and movement of the galaxy (target one) is include in the calculation.



Assertion based on nothing.



Nope as movement is already part of the calculation. Red and blue shift are not distance measurements.



Assertion based on nothing



He is wrong then



Argument from authority



I do not need to as you are proposing the argument here not him. If you can not defend some source you can not even remember that is your burden not mine. Do note you have not named the person until now.

Gerald Schroeder - Wikipedia

He is mixing his religion into science as science upsets his religious view. Nothing more. Do note how his idea align with what his bronze age book claims.

Have you read any of his books ? Of course not. I didn´t name him initially, as I stated, because I read his article a couple of years ago, I forgot his name and had to find the article.

I never said red and blue shift had anything to do with time measurement.

So, in your universe, distance and the continued expansion of the universe relative to the speed of light, has no effect on the measured time between a flashes of photons released into the universe. So, on earth they will have been released a second apart, 15 billion light years away they will be viewed at one second apart, correct ? There is no ¨stretching¨ of time caused by the expanding universe that would increase the time between flashes over 15 billion years ?

Correct ?

 

[shmogie]

Well, as I said, divers persons including myself are out
of their depth on such things, and would be better
off with other topics.

Everyone is free to address any issue they choose.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, as I said, divers persons including myself are out
of their depth on such things, and would be better
off with other topics.

Time dilation still makes my head hurt quite often. I do not have the best of grasps on the topic. But when I see someone else trying to use it to defend a YEC belief it is easy for me to see their errors in their abuse of the concept.

 

[shmogie]

So, ok. Not my biz.
But are you a fan of omphalos?

I don know the term, please enlighten me.

 

[Audie]

Everyone is free to address any issue they choose.

I'd never suggest otherwise, but, I do not hold
forth and pretend to be an authority on brain surgery,
or fine points of Japanese grammar. Or, for that
matter, advanced theoretical astrophysics.

People who do not know what they are talking
about but argue anyway are a bit in a league
with first grade boys trying to fight when it
is 20 below zero and their clothing is too thick
and heavy to let them actually do anything.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Have you read any of his books ? Of course not. I didn´t name him initially, as I stated, because I read his article a couple of years ago, I forgot his name and had to find the article.

I never said red and blue shift had anything to do with time measurement.

So, in your universe, distance and the continued expansion of the universe relative to the speed of light, has no effect on the measured time between a flashes of photons released into the universe. So, on earth they will have been released a second apart, 15 billion light years away they will be viewed at one second apart, correct ? There is no ¨stretching¨ of time caused by the expanding universe that would increase the time between flashes over 15 billion years ?

Correct ?

This raises the question of why you even brought up the topic in the first place. Yes, the expansion of space is a metric expansion. That means that distant objects will appear to be "moving" away from us. If expansion miraculously stopped the apparent motion would also stop and we would not see the time dilation caused by immense distances. But that has nothing to do with an embedded age or other YEC views. I repeat, why even bring the topic up?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don know the term, please enlighten me.

Embedded age.

Something about a belly button

 

[Audie]

I don know the term, please enlighten me.

Sure. The whole thing with Res was re embedded age.

The Omphalos hypothesis was named after the title of an 1857 book, Omphalos by Philip Henry Gosse, in which Gosse argued that in order for the world to be "functional", God must have created the Earth with mountains and canyons, trees with growth rings, Adam and Eve with hair, fingernails, and navels (omphalos is Greek for "navel"), and that therefore noevidence that we can see of the presumed age of the earth and universe can be taken as reliable. The idea has seen some revival in the twentieth century by some modern creationists, who have extended the argument to light that appears to originate in far-off stars and galaxies, although many other creationists reject this explanation[1] (and also believe that Adam and Eve had no navels).[2]
"Embedded Age" and Why it's Wrong


So anyway, are you an embedded age guy?

 

[Shad]

Have you read any of his books ? Of course not. I didn´t name him initially, as I stated, because I read his article a couple of years ago, I forgot his name and had to find the article.

I can read about his idea and see the jumps of faith he makes based on no evidence.

I never said red and blue shift had anything to do with time measurement.

You included those shifts as part of distance and time dilution which blue and red shifts have nothing to do with.

So, in your universe, distance and the continued expansion of the universe relative to the speed of light, has no effect on the measured time between a flashes of photons released into the universe.

No as I clearly said those distances and movement of objects are includes with the calculations.

So, on earth they will have been released a second apart, 15 billion light years away they will be viewed at one second apart, correct ?

Nope

There is no ¨stretching¨ of time caused by the expanding universe that would increase the time between flashes over 15 billion years ?

That is not part of any modern physics.

Correct ?

Nope.

 

[shmogie]

Nope as distance and movement of the galaxy (target one) is include in the calculation.



Assertion based on nothing.



Nope as movement is already part of the calculation. Red and blue shift are not distance measurements.



Assertion based on nothing



He is wrong then



Argument from authority



I do not need to as you are proposing the argument here not him. If you can not defend some source you can not even remember that is your burden not mine. Do note you have not named the person until now.

Gerald Schroeder - Wikipedia

He is mixing his religion into science as science upsets his religious view. Nothing more. Do note how his idea align with what his bronze age book claims but nothing else. He ignores archaeology. He makes blunders with figures, if you read his book He is just babbling as he is a literialist. He has zero evidence supporting his idea. First off he says God is within a time frame thus bound by time. Ergo God is now not God. God also has velocity ergo God has movement thus bound by physics thus not God. God becomes a physical body thus not God. Of course this is all presented with zero evidence.

You saw MIT physicists and your eyes glazed over as he told you what you wanted to hear. Nothing more.

Don´t assert anything about me that you know absolutely nothing about.

Have you read any of his books ? b Other than parroting that oh so reliable source, wikipedia, have you worked through his math and found it in error ?

I find it funny that you attempt to define God, kinda beyond you isn´t it ? He never says God is bound by time, he says God chooses to operate in perceived time from a certain perspective, not the same at all.

I am going to look into this further, since I am not a physicist as you apparently are.

I am going back to all the material I have on a University course I took on relativity.

It would seem to me that a well qualified scientist, would not just arbitrarily chuck everything he learned, and everything he taught, to come up with a hopelessly wrong hypothesis that has no scientific basis.

I will see, but I don´t think wikepedia will play much of a role in my research.

If, in fact, you are wrong, I will point it out in no uncertain terms. If Schroeder is wrong, I will advise you of that as well.

 

[shmogie]

Sure. The whole thing with Res was re embedded age.

The Omphalos hypothesis was named after the title of an 1857 book, Omphalos by Philip Henry Gosse, in which Gosse argued that in order for the world to be "functional", God must have created the Earth with mountains and canyons, trees with growth rings, Adam and Eve with hair, fingernails, and navels (omphalos is Greek for "navel"), and that therefore noevidence that we can see of the presumed age of the earth and universe can be taken as reliable. The idea has seen some revival in the twentieth century by some modern creationists, who have extended the argument to light that appears to originate in far-off stars and galaxies, although many other creationists reject this explanation[1] (and also believe that Adam and Eve had no navels).[2]
"Embedded Age" and Why it's Wrong


So anyway, are you an embedded age guy?

No

 

[Audie]

No

good.

 

[Shad]

Don´t assert anything about me that you know absolutely nothing about.

You were the one citing a physicist that told you what you wanted to hear. That is clear.

Have you read any of his books ? b Other than parroting that oh so reliable source, wikipedia, have you worked through his math and found it in error ?

This is hilarious. You are parroting a source you read. Yet my citation of just a wiki is parroting what exactly? Try again.

I find it funny that you attempt to define God, kinda beyond you isn´t it ?

Nope. Considering a bunch of bronze age goat herds can make up a definition of God I am free to as well. No expertise is required to define something that has never been observed by any credible source.

He never says God is bound by time, he says God chooses to operate in perceived time from a certain perspective, not the same at all.

Which is still being bound by time. Spin it however you want. Beside there is zero evidence for this claim anyways.

I am going to look into this further, since I am not a physicist as you apparently are.

Never claimed that. I just know a little more about physics than you do.

I am going back to all the material I have on a University course I took on relativity.

K

It would seem to me that a well qualified scientist, would not just arbitrarily chuck everything he learned, and everything he taught, to come up with a hopelessly wrong hypothesis that has no scientific basis.

Argument from authority. He is speculating then borrowing science to make his speculation look more solid, nothing more. He has no direct evidence for any of his claims.

I will see, but I don´t think wikepedia will play much of a role in my research.

I just cited it to establish who he is. I took nothing from the wiki for my points.

If, in fact, you are wrong, I will point it out in no uncertain terms.

Prove it.

If Schroeder is wrong, I will advise you of that as well.

If? Oh now you are going to look to see "if" he is right or not? Funny how you didn't consider that before hand.

 

[Audie]

Re what one wants to hear, it is notable
that our creationists, go for a very narrow
selection of scientific authorities, most
specifically those who are not part of
that dreaded consensus science of the
secular atheists.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I know the theory, but I have a problem with the Time dilation and length contraction in SR, But it does not change the fact that the Bible claims an age of the Earth of 6000 years+ zero time.
I believe that there were galaxies created before the Solar system, and that it could be billions of years of light travelling from its original position, it does not mean the Bible is wrong.

The Bible does not claim 6,000 years, in fact, Jesus's favorite title was "Son of David" despite being 14 generations and 1,000 years from King David--likewise, we do not have a proscription to add notable descendants and sons and calculate 6,000 years.

I will say this--"mysteriously" homo sapiens seems to only have arrived at agrarian work, writing, history, tools, etc. very, very recently. Can't be a coincidence...

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Bible does not claim 6,000 years, in fact, Jesus's favorite title was "Son of David" despite being 14 generations and 1,000 years from King David--likewise, we do not have a proscription to add notable descendants and sons and calculate 6,000 years.

I will say this--"mysteriously" homo sapiens seems to only have arrived at agrarian work, writing, history, tools, etc. very, very recently. Can't be a coincidence...

Why do you think that it is a coincidence? One thing that we can see about knowledge is that it tends to grow exponentially. And the change to agrarianism was not overnight. You are essentially making an argument from ignorance. That is a logical fallacy. Just because one does not know why events happened does not make them a coincidence.

 

[shmogie]

You were the one citing a physicist that told you what you wanted to hear. That is clear.



This is hilarious. You are parroting a source you read. Yet my citation of just a wiki is parroting what exactly? Try again.



Nope. Considering a bunch of bronze age goat herds can make up a definition of God I am free to as well. No expertise is required to define something that has never been observed by any credible source.



Which is still being bound by time. Spin it however you want. Beside there is zero evidence for this claim anyways.



Never claimed that. I just know a little more about physics than you do.



K



Argument from authority. He is speculating then borrowing science to make his speculation look more solid, nothing more. He has no direct evidence for any of his claims.



I just cited it to establish who he is. I took nothing from the wiki for my points.



Prove it.



If? Oh now you are going to look to see "if" he is right or not? Funny how you didn't consider that before hand.

A hypothesis for discussion is just that. I pointed out the contents of his article as a POSSIBILTY, that had been presented by him.

I never said it was correct or incorrect, just that it existed.

I have already found some quite interesting secular stuff on the time reference of a photon, and related information it might carry.

You will hear back on this, guaranteed.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You know that is not true and it does nothing to support them or your own ability to actually respond the thread itself.

Um... it was true. Entirely true. Hence the reason @Audie didn't disagree with me. She was using your own words, just framed up differently, with a different time-frame, to show you how ridiculous your claim was. I'm pretty sure she would readily admit that her "last Thursday" claim was ridiculous, because it was meant to be. I don't know what you think you're disagreeing with here by saying "you know that is not true" but you're completely off base.

My evidence is the fact you cannot put mature humans, plants and animals on gases and expect them not to float into space. The thread is clear it is about what the bible says. So we can only
go from what it says and science not a personal point of view which in no way, (like your post) relates to the topic at hand.
The rest is nothing to do with the topic either because we are not discussing individual beliefs we are looking at what the bible and science says. They do not support you or the other poster
regarding the bible. Best to remain quiet than show your inability to post in line with the thread.

Fine... we can "go with what The Bible says" - and it says absolutely nothing about the maturity aspect of the universe. Nothing. Completely silent on that point. So your assertion, when going "by what The Bible says" is complete and utter crap. Best to remain quiet than show your inability to stick to the facts and what The Bible actually says.

 

[Audie]

Um... it was true. Entirely true. Hence the reason @Audie didn't disagree with me. She was using your own words, just framed up differently, with a different time-frame, to show you how ridiculous your claim was. I'm pretty sure she would readily admit that her "last Thursday" claim was ridiculous, because it was meant to be. I don't know what you think you're disagreeing with here by saying "you know that is not true" but you're completely off base.




Fine... we can "go with what The Bible says" - and it days absolutely nothing about the maturity aspect of the universe. Nothing. Completely silent on that point. So your assertion, when going "by what The Bible says" is complete and utter crap. Best to remain quiet than show your inability to stick to the facts and what The Bible actually says.

A fundy can never be wrong, not even to misunderstanding
why I said "last thursday"

As for what the bible says, it says jesus is a door and pi is 3.0

 

[Audie]

Everyone is free to address any issue they choose.

Of course; and some observe the "better to
stay silent and be thought a fool than open
mouth and remove all doubt."