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The Threat to "Truth"

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Since the beginning of the last election, when Donald Trump entered the race, it seems to me that they very idea of truth has been steadily undermined. He started by attempting to marginalize the press, and then further to dehumanize the press, increasingly labeling them all as disgusting, scum, lowlifes, and finally as "fake news," enemies of the people, and a "stain" on the country.

The press hasn't been his only target, of course, since his aim seems to be to disqualify other institutions and professions as arbiters of fact, including the courts, law enforcement, intelligence agencies, historians, and even scientists.

His goal seems evident: to destroy the idea of objective truth. He even said to Lesley Stahl of CBS News before the election in 2016, "You know why I do it? I do it to discredit you all and demean you all, so when you write negative stories about me no one will believe you." How's that for one of the few times the man has been honest?

Bret Stephens, a conservative columnist, put it perfectly in a speech in early 2017, saying the President "is trying to substitute propaganda for news, boosterism for information."

And if he succeeds (as other demagogues have succeeded in the past), and if the United States begins to believe that truth can only come from the head of state, then you will have surrendered the very idea that inspired the founding of your nation.

(The foregoing contains paraphrased excerpts from a speech by Washington Post executive editor Martin Baron to the annual awards gala of the Canadian Journalism Foundation.)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Easy solution...
Observe what Trump does.
What he says is largely irrelevant.

But we must generally beware propaganda masquerading as fact.
As I pointed out in another thread, NPR is pushing a history of US
vs Iran which excludes US misdeeds, thereby painting a false picture
which increases public sentiment for attacking them.

Beware the dangers of misinformation.
Don't take my blather as gospel either.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
So, in a round about way, the President is getting folks to question the "truth", the "objective truth". I think we all should question that. Guess Lot of things to complain about, getting people to questioning what others claim is objective truth is not one of them.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Easy solution...
Observe what Trump does.
What he says is largely irrelevant.
What he does, is lie. What he does, is cheat. What he does, is steal. What he does is belittle, dehumanize, and abuse. And none of this is "irrelevant" when he is the representative of the American people, to ourselves, and to the world.

Look what we've become!
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Easy solution...
Observe what Trump does.
What he says is largely irrelevant.

Normally I'd agree with this, but one of the jobs of a President is to serve as the voice of the people. That he is a pathological liar is a major reason I would never, ever vote for them even if they actually supported the direction I believe this country needs to go in. Presidents are supposed to deliver narratives that inspire and strengthen a country. Instead he lies constantly, spews divisive rhetoric, and routinely displays adult temper tantrums. I doubt many would argue that the garbage that comes out of his mouth has caused more problems for this nation than it has solved.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Normally I'd agree with this, but one of the jobs of a President is to serve as the voice of the people. That he is a pathological liar is a major reason I would never, ever vote for them even if they actually supported the direction I believe this country needs to go in. Presidents are supposed to deliver narratives that inspire and strengthen a country. Instead he lies constantly, spews divisive rhetoric, and routinely displays adult temper tantrums. I doubt many would argue that the garbage that comes out of his mouth has caused more problems for this nation than it has solved.
OK, he should be different from who he is.
But we must cope with that the best we can.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What he does, is lie. What he does, is cheat. What he does, is steal. What he does is belittle, dehumanize, and abuse. And none of this is "irrelevant" when he is the representative of the American people, to ourselves, and to the world.
All good reason to place more importance on what he does than what he says.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So, in a round about way, the President is getting folks to question the "truth", the "objective truth". I think we all should question that. Guess Lot of things to complain about, getting people to questioning what others claim is objective truth is not one of them.
I'm all for questioning truth, but how are we to judge it? What yardstick are we to use?
How much weight are we to give to objective evidence vs simplistic, comfortable, self-serving propaganda? Do we want to deal with reality, or take refuge in Big Brother? Do we want to put our lives in the hands of a charismatic father figure, or in those snooty, elitist "experts" who want to make us study and think, and make decisions on our own?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
All good reason to place more importance on what he does than what he says.
You don't seem to get that lying IS DOING SOMETHING. And it's something that matters. Because it's harmful, and hurtful, and it's deliberately confusing and misleading and exploitive. It's done with the intent to use and abuse people the people being lied to.

Why are you trying to excuse it as if it's nothing?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You don't seem to get that lying IS DOING SOMETHING.
There is a fundamental difference between saying one will do something,
& the actual performance of the something one committed to do.
The latter is typically called "doing something" as opposed to talking about it.
Why are you trying to excuse it as if it's nothing?
To recognize dishonesty, & to cope with it is not to condone.
For example, your posted question has a dishonest premise.
I recognize & cope with that, but I don't condone the dishonesty.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
if the United States begins to believe that truth can only come from the head of state, then you will have surrendered the very idea that inspired the founding of your nation.
Pence actually tried that in Indiana, creating a state-ran news source that, as he hoped, the real news would look to as a source (similar to Routers). The idea was not well recieved there.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
There is a fundamental difference between saying one will do something,
& the actual performance of the something one committed to do.
The latter is typically called "doing something" as opposed to talking about it.
Or, why Trump can **** off when he says he supports LGBT rights.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Since the beginning of the last election, when Donald Trump entered the race, it seems to me that they very idea of truth has been steadily undermined. He started by attempting to marginalize the press, and then further to dehumanize the press, increasingly labeling them all as disgusting, scum, lowlifes, and finally as "fake news," enemies of the people, and a "stain" on the country.

The press hasn't been his only target, of course, since his aim seems to be to disqualify other institutions and professions as arbiters of fact, including the courts, law enforcement, intelligence agencies, historians, and even scientists.

His goal seems evident: to destroy the idea of objective truth. He even said to Lesley Stahl of CBS News before the election in 2016, "You know why I do it? I do it to discredit you all and demean you all, so when you write negative stories about me no one will believe you." How's that for one of the few times the man has been honest?

Bret Stephens, a conservative columnist, put it perfectly in a speech in early 2017, saying the President "is trying to substitute propaganda for news, boosterism for information."

And if he succeeds (as other demagogues have succeeded in the past), and if the United States begins to believe that truth can only come from the head of state, then you will have surrendered the very idea that inspired the founding of your nation.

(The foregoing contains paraphrased excerpts from a speech by Washington Post executive editor Martin Baron to the annual awards gala of the Canadian Journalism Foundation.)
I think that started WAAAAAY before Trump and, quite frankly, the press certainly has deserved their critique.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I think that started WAAAAAY before Trump and, quite frankly, the press certainly has deserved their critique.
And that's all you've got to say? "Enemy of the people" doesn't concern you?

I guess when the only thing you read is the Bible, nothing else will ever cross your mind. Ken, I am saddened for you, really I am.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I'm all for questioning truth, but how are we to judge it? What yardstick are we to use?
How much weight are we to give to objective evidence vs simplistic, comfortable, self-serving propaganda? Do we want to deal with reality, or take refuge in Big Brother? Do we want to put our lives in the hands of a charismatic father figure, or in those snooty, elitist "experts" who want to make us study and think, and make decisions on our own?
Life? Why put your life in anyone else's hands?
No guarantee anyone else is going care about your life.

If you are trying to judge the truth, it means you are still guessing. Maybe you'll get lucky and get it right.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
And that's all you've got to say? "Enemy of the people" doesn't concern you?

I guess when the only thing you read is the Bible, nothing else will ever cross your mind. Ken, I am saddened for you, really I am.
WOW! You got all of that from my post? Amazing!
 
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