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The Power Of Circular Reasoning

sooda

Veteran Member

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
That's OK for you, but what about those who need a 'do over'...those who suffer irreparable brain damage or severe physical disability in an accident? What about those who completely mess up their lives because of the bad influence of others and need a 'do over'....you think no one deserves that? That makes what God is offering preferable to what you expect to happen IMO.

The fact that you think the existence of your God is preferable to his non-existence does not mean it is more likely or more reasonable.

It would be preferable if all my student loan debt were paid off right now. But it isn't.

If that is what you think, then you have no idea why he doesn't interfere with this life until the end. There is a reason for all of it...a very important reason. He is God so he knows what he's doing.

He is able to judge people by the way they live this life without any interference from him....he observes those who seek his guidance and those who don't want it. Living this life without his interference is exactly how he determines who gets the reward and who doesn't. We tell God exactly who we are by the choices we make.

If that's the case, then he should have no problem with people who aren't convinced of his existence or the validity of a book that advocates slavery and genocide. If he has a problem with those things, that says much more about him than any non-believer.



I see that you are fond of making these statement only from your own viewpoint.....what about others? Have you no thought for those who don't experience any 'beautiful humanity'? Ask the children of Syria if they would like a hope for a better life in the future? Or the children in the slums of India or Asia sold for sex slavery? How beautiful is humanity for them? Or perhaps the children starving in African nations....
I don't mean to suggest that there is no suffering in the world or that life is a bed of roses. Only to suggest that interdependence can be and is beautiful.

God is not responsible for any of that....humans are.
If God has the power to stop that suffering, and chooses not to, he is absolutely responsible.

No, I prefer to call it "programming"....we are designed to live in beautiful surrounding with our families forever. Death is still a foreign element in our lives and we continue to grieve even over the death of a beloved pet. How are we not programmed to accept death since it has always happened? Isn't that what evolution is supposed to do....to make us adapt to things that we can't change? Why do we grieve....sometimes for decades?
There are many, many threads here by people who have explained evolution over and over. I suggest you start there. Or go take a class at a local college.

My guess is that you probably never will. The evidence for God's existence is all around you but like many who have been blinded by science, you can't see it, or don't want to acknowledge it.
Science does not blind us, it helps us understand the world better than any other system anyone has come up with. If you have to bad-mouth science in order to prop up your religion, that again says more about you than it does me.

The truth is...nothing comes from nothing.
You don't have the slightest clue what comes from nothing because you've never seen nothing. Every one of our experiences in this life is of things coming from other things.

If people don't want to know God, why would he want to know them?
Oh you're right, maybe he doesn't. But if he doesn't want to know us, then punishing us for not knowing him is the height of cruelty and injustice.

He gave us life

Zero evidence for that, yet again.

I gave you the evidence. The flood legend is found all over the world in very diverse cultures.
And I gave you an alternative explanation that actually matches the facts.

Only a real event of monumental proportions could permeate human thinking to that extent.
I'm willing to grant that a large flood could have planted the seed of the myth - again, floods happen all over. But there's no evidence the entire Earth was actually flooded to the tops of the highest mountains.

Someone once asked me what I would do if I came across the web of a very venomous spider with an egg sac full of babies....they asked if I would kill the parents and spare the babies? What would they grow up to become?

Comparing humans to spiders? Not a great analogy.

Living in that pre-flood world we see that every human inclination was rotten to the core. (Genesis 6:5-8) There were no humans who had not been corrupted by their wicked lifestyle. Since God was going to execute their parents, did you want a whole generation of young children left as orphans? Who would take care of them?

Artificially created problem by God's horrific choice. Hey, no ones around to take take of these little babies because I killed their parents...oh well, guess I just have to kill them too!

Hideous.

And if God is going to restore the lives of these people in the future, wouldn't you want the parents and children to come back together to start again? (John 5:28-29)

Large if with zero evidence to support it.

Yes, because they were offending him with their licentious and violent lifestyle
Again, making offending the ruler a capital crime is the kind of thing they do in the most brutal dictatorships in the world. That is the god you want us to take advice from and worship.



LOL....God is not a flawed human leader
No, he's worse. He slaughters people by the millions...for offending him.

....he is the Creator of life and this universe which gives him sovereign rights to tell all of us what to do with the gift of life that he gave to us. If we don't want the gift, then he will take it back. It was always conditional anyway. So I think that's fair enough?

No, it's not fair at all. Creating a sentient life doesn't give you unilateral authority over whether that life lives or dies based on whether she lives up to your standards. Do you think parents have that right over their children?

Did you make that up?
No, it's obvious if you stop reflexively giving God a pass because "he's God" and think through it for 5 seconds. If I have the power to create a sentient life, that doesn't give me the right to just kill that life whenever and however I'd like. Can you imagine? That is a horrific vision of how society should function.

The Bible is full of such evidence. You just don't believe it....or don't want to.
No, the Bible is full of claims. You are used to regarding it as evidence because you already believe in it. What we need is evidence that what the Bible claims is actually true.

Well, that is not my call...I am not your judge. God's laws apply to all...we don't get to pick and choose. Could it be that people with some kind of privileged attitude that they have a right to life without any appreciation for its Maker or his rules, might just be repugnant to God?

He is our Landlord and we are his tenants.....if we break the tenancy agreement then eviction will follow.
If you think I'm repugnant to your God and deserve to die because I don't believe the claims of a book allegedly about him, again that says vastly more about you and your God than me.
 
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Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
So... if you believe what you says true, are you using manipulative BS and we should call you out on it?
Did I claim my religion/worldview is the only source of true happiness? If so, then please, call me out.
 

Catholicus

Active Member
A common claim:


View attachment 30192



Sound reasoning or not? If not, what does it imply about both the Bible and god?
............................................If so, what does it imply about you?

.
.
That God exists, is proved by the fact that the universe exists.

That Christianity is true, is proved by the fact that witnesses of Jesus's Resurrection died for their belief in it - e.g. Simon Peter, James.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
is proved by the fact that witnesses of Jesus's Resurrection died for their belief in it - e.g. Simon Peter, James.
People died for Judaism, Islam, various Paganisms and for certain political ideologies. It makes them no more true. We also cannot verify Christian martyrdoms as none of them that pertain to the Apostles, Paul or such are written in the Greek Scriptures or anywhere else by outside authorities.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
That God exists, is proved by the fact that the universe exists.

That Christianity is true, is proved by the fact that witnesses of Jesus's Resurrection died for their belief in it - e.g. Simon Peter, James.

That is not proof of the existence of god. The gospels were written well after Jesus died, there is no evidence he resurrected.
 

Catholicus

Active Member
The fact that you think the existence of your God is preferable to his non-existence does not mean it is more likely or more reasonable.

It would be preferable if all my student loan debt were paid off right now. But it isn't.



If that's the case, then he should have no problem with people who aren't convinced of his existence or the validity of a book that advocates slavery and genocide. If he has a problem with those things, that says much more about him than any non-believer.




I don't mean to suggest that there is no suffering in the world or that life is a bed of roses. Only to suggest that interdependence can be and is beautiful.


If God has the power to stop that suffering, and chooses not to, he is absolutely responsible.


There are many, many threads here by people who have explained evolution over and over. I suggest you start there. Or go take a class at a local college.


Science does not blind us, it helps us understand the world better than any other system anyone has come up with. If you have to bad-mouth science in order to prop up your religion, that again says more about you than it does me.


You don't have the slightest clue what comes from nothing because you've never seen nothing. Every one of our experiences in this life is of things coming from other things.


Oh you're right, maybe he doesn't. But if he doesn't want to know us, then punishing us for not knowing him is the height of cruelty and injustice.



Zero evidence for that, yet again.


And I gave you an alternative explanation that actually matches the facts.


I'm willing to grant that a large flood could have planted the seed of the myth - again, floods happen all over. But there's no evidence the entire Earth was actually flooded to the tops of the highest mountains.



Comparing humans to spiders? Not a great analogy.



Artificially created problem by God's horrific choice. Hey, no ones around to take take of these little babies because I killed their parents...oh well, guess I just have to kill them too!

Hideous.



Large if with zero evidence to support it.


Again, making offending the ruler a capital crime is the kind of thing they do in the most brutal dictatorships in the world. That is the god you want us to take advice from and worship.




No, he's worse. He slaughters people by the millions...for offending him.



No, it's not fair at all. Creating a sentient life doesn't give you unilateral authority over whether that life lives or dies based on whether she lives up to your standards. Do you think parents have that right over their children?


No, it's obvious if you stop reflexively giving God a pass because "he's God" and think through it for 5 seconds. If I have the power to create a sentient life, that doesn't give me the right to just kill that life whenever and however I'd like. Can you imagine? That is a horrific vision of how society should function.


No, the Bible is full of claims. You are used to regarding it as evidence because you already believe in it. What we need is evidence that what the Bible claims is actually true.


If you think I'm repugnant to your God and deserve to die because I don't believe the claims of a book allegedly about him, again that says vastly more about you and your God than me.

God sent the Flood because people had become so evil that they were all going to Hell - to prevent that happening any further, God brought the curtain down on the show. This is called "being cruel to be kind."

"God is Love" (says the Bible), therefore God is Liberty, therefore has given us free will - WE are responsible for the evil in the world.

The Biblical statement "Love your neighbour as yourself" forbids slavery and genocide.

Science helps us to understand nature - it has nothing to say about ethics.

If God didn't exist, we would be of no more lasting significance than spiders - only God gives human history any meaning or purpose - Nature doesn't.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
God sent the Flood because people had become so evil that they were all going to Hell - to prevent that happening any further, God brought the curtain down on the show. This is called "being cruel to be kind."

"God is Love" (says the Bible), therefore God is Liberty, therefore has given us free will - WE are responsible for the evil in the world.

The Biblical statement "Love your neighbour as yourself" forbids slavery and genocide.

Science helps us to understand nature - it has nothing to say about ethics.

If God didn't exist, we would be of no more lasting significance than spiders - only God gives human history any meaning or purpose - Nature doesn't.
That is just your belief you have no evidence to back it up.
 

Catholicus

Active Member
That is not proof of the existence of god. The gospels were written well after Jesus died, there is no evidence he resurrected.

So what DID create the universe ? If not God, it has to be blind Chance - which is far-fetched.

The Gospels may have been written-down well after Jesus died (MAY - no one knows, in fact), but are based on older oral testimony, clearly that of eye-witnesses.
 

Catholicus

Active Member
People died for Judaism, Islam, various Paganisms and for certain political ideologies. It makes them no more true. We also cannot verify Christian martyrdoms as none of them that pertain to the Apostles, Paul or such are written in the Greek Scriptures or anywhere else by outside authorities.

Simon Peter's remains (indicating his martyrdom) were dug up from beneath the high altar of St Peter's, Rome in 1967.

Why should he (and others) have died for a belief in Jesus's resurrection if they knew it didn't happen ?

Clearly, they were certain that it had happened.
 

Catholicus

Active Member
We've already had this discusion today on another thread. The Super natural(if it exists is above our realm of understanding. So...
-what evidence would you expect for the supernatural?
-would you know it if you saw it?
-does the super natural(if it exists) have rules? Who sets them?
-the super natural(if it exists) won't confirm to the natural laws we know, what, if any laws would it follow?

Believing in a god is nothing more than a choice and that choice is based on faith. A god existing or not existed cannot be shown by any science. A belief in god or a disbelief in god is fine and both are done by nothing more than faith. Their faith is a god does exist, your faith is a god doesn't exist. Evidence doesn't support either.

If John believes and you don't, tell me how you are smarter and better than John. You arent, you just have different beliefs in life. That's that.


"Why does something exist, rather than nothing ?" (Leibniz)

God is the only reasonable explanation for anything's existing.
 

Catholicus

Active Member
I don't know the answer to any of these questions. I don't think anyone does, because the concept of the supernatural is unfalsifiable. Which is exactly why I don't believe in it. Thank you for asking the perfect questions to illustrate that.



I disagree strongly. We don't choose our beliefs. We are genuinely convinced of something based on the evidence we've seen, and we call that state of genuinely being convinced, belief. I can't wake up tomorrow and decide I'm convinced there's a God.



And faith is a terrible method for determining what we can reliably demonstrate is actually true/real. As you asked above, what rules govern whether we have faith in something or don't? If there are no rules other than what we make up, then we could literally have faith in anything, no matter how absurd.



It depends entirely on what belief we're talking about what evidence there is for that belief. And it has nothing to do with being better or smarter than anyone else. It has to do with caring what is the best way for us to rationally understand reality.


The existence of the supernatural is proven by the fact that we all constantly have to make choices between good and evil - choices that have nothing to do with our survival or prosperity; are, in fact, spiritual (i.e. supernatural) choices.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Simon Peter's remains (indicating his martyrdom) were dug up from beneath the high altar of St Peter's, Rome in 1967.

Why should he (and others) have died for a belief in Jesus's resurrection if they knew it didn't happen ?

Clearly, they were certain that it had happened.
Many people are certain about many things; this doesn't make them true. As I said, other people have died for their faiths.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The Black Sea breech was a slow moving flood. People living on the banks had plenty of time to move their herds and families to higher ground.

The event triggered migration and an uptick in agriculture elsewhere,
. Yes... floods are always slow, especially when they carry so much silt.
 
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