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Science cannot solve the final mystery

cladking

Well-Known Member
Has anyone stated what the ultimate mystery of nature is?

Our nature and thenature of reality are the mystery.

In words you can understand were we created by a consciousness or not and do we serve a purpose or not? What is the purpose? How do we come to learn the answers?

I know you already have these answers just like everyone else.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
All life requires specific conditions and has specific needs to survive.

But humans can survive almost anywhere including space and the surface of the moon. We have the knowledge and tools to rule other creatures. People believe this makes us the crown of creation no matter what exact words they use to express the concept. People believe we are the only intelligent life on the planet and most believe we are the only conscious life/ life with a soul/ life that can use abstraction etc etc.

We all believe this and I'm saying none of it is true. Reality doesn't exist because we "think". Reality doesn't even exist as we believe it exists. We are the only superstitious life on the planet and before the Tower of Babel "humans" were not superstitious. We are a race that acquired superstition and the only race that uses confused language. Other life doesn't "know" as much about reality as we but even an eggplant probably has a better model for the formatting of existence than we do! This is because our confused language has provided erroneous assumptions about the nature of life and our own nature. Some of these assumptions underlie science so without an understanding of metaphysics and epistemology most of us have a very confused understanding of the nature of scientific results (experiment) as well.

So long as we can only see what we believe we can't see everything is a circular argument.

Anyone can say they don;'t think ancient people were ignorant and superstitious but this is still virtually universal. No matter who you ask ancients didn't know Jesus, had multiple "Gods", had no science at all, and lacked the ability to even fly much less go to space. They didn't even have the printing press or concrete plants!!! Everyone believes they were primitive, ignorant, superstitious savages no matter what words are used to label them.

And everyone knows we now have the Bible, Jesus, space flight, and Peer reviewed "science" to tell us what's up and what's down. We are the very epitome of evolution and smarter, faster, and more adaptable than people of the past.

I say we're wrong across the board. Everything we believe is wrong virtually by definition and then people want to use semantics to tell me how smart ancient people were. Ancient people knew they were ignorant and not "intelligent". We don't even know that much!!!

Water bears can survive much more extremes and with much less than we can.

Also known as water bears, tardigrades are tiny water-dwelling creatures famed for their resiliency. The eight-legged invertebrates can survive for up to 30 years without food or water and can endure wild temperature extremes, radiation exposure, and even the vacuum of space.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Not to mention this crown of creation you think we are is equal to a virus that's been put upon on this earth with all the destruction, pollution and extinctions we cause.


I think we are a confused hairless ape that has deluded ourselves into believing we are intelligent.

I believe we are exactly equivalent to other life forms though others aren't confused. I don't believe intelligence exists. I believe science is stuck because we codified too many erroneous assumptions in the 19th century.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
I think we are a confused hairless ape that has deluded ourselves into believing we are intelligent.

I believe we are exactly equivalent to other life forms though others aren't confused. I don't believe intelligence exists. I believe science is stuck because we codified too many erroneous assumptions in the 19th century.

At least you admit you're an ape. Question is do you think you evolved through the ape ancestor lines or were created as you are?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Water bears can survive much more extremes and with much less than we can.

Also known as water bears, tardigrades are tiny water-dwelling creatures famed for their resiliency. The eight-legged invertebrates can survive for up to 30 years without food or water and can endure wild temperature extremes, radiation exposure, and even the vacuum of space.

Mebbe.

But I wager none ever launched themselves into space. I bet I have none in my condo right now.

I've never seen one waiting in line at the opera.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
At least you admit you're an ape. Question is do you think you evolved through the ape ancestor lines or were created as you are?

Both and neither.

I don't mean to be coy but it's a complex answer and providing it is far beyond my pay grade.

I don't believe in evolution but I believe species change. Many things lead to species change but primarily from what we see it's caused by behavior. Bottlenecks are created by nature selecting behavior. Life is caused by and propagated by (individual) consciousness. I can't rule out or rule in a Creator who drives this or was the original cause. Frankly I suspect that if there were such a Thing that it is not really conscious as we understand consciousness. Perhaps It's some physical manifestation of the onion I call "Reality". I don't think about this very much because it is an imponderable.

I believe religion derives from ancient science that is wholly dissimilar to our own and just like every other animal science but was far more advanced because humans had complex metaphysical language that allowed an accumulation of knowledge across generations. This and sympathy for others is the basis of morality today but ancient science devised these rules scientifically.

I believe that before a mutation (another cause of species change) that allowed complex language (a closer tie between the speech center and higher brain functions) our ancestors looked like us but were really "proto-humans". The tower of babel then converted humans to modern superstitious humans (homo omnisciencis) through the addition of a second speech center that translated the digital speech center to the now analog higher brain functions.

There's really nothing "wrong" with modern humans except we each know everything and have a lot of weird ideas.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
So what if there are unsolvable problems in any given axiom system? That most certainly does NOT show that the human mind is greater than anything a Turing machine can do.

So the other possibility will hold. IOW, there will always be incompleteness.

Really? Care to detail why? So, if there are unsolvable math problems, why would that imply a non-material aspect of existence?

Not I but Godel himself says that in his paper. You could check the link. Either mind is not Turing machine. Or the reality is beyond description of Turing machine/mechanism.

[quote]I suspect you don't actually understand what Hawking was talking about here. But once again, I am NOT a positivist. I don't think that only mathematical laws are allowed as scientific explanations.[/QUOTE]

I expected the bolded part. Actually you could have also said that Hawking was wrong. Ha ha.

I repeat from Hawking:

Godel and the End of Physics

What is the relation between Godel’s theorem and whether we can formulate the theory of the universe in terms of a finite number of principles? One connection is obvious. According to the positivist philosophy of science, a physical theory is a mathematical model. So if there are mathematical results that can not be proved, there are physical problems that can not be predicted.......

But we are not angels, who view the universe from the outside. Instead, we and our models are both part of the universe we are describing.
Thus a physical theory is self referencing, like in Godel’s theorem. One might therefore expect it to be either inconsistent or incomplete. The theories we have so far are both inconsistent and incomplete.....

if one can't define the wave function point wise, one can't predict the future to arbitrary accuracy, even in the reduced determinism of quantum theory. What we need is a formulation of M theory that takes account of the black hole information limit. But then our experience with supergravity and string theory, and the analogy of Godel’s theorem, suggest that even this formulation will be incomplete......

Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind....

...

So, whether positivist or not, Incompleteness applies to physics also.
...
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The Borde-Vilenkin-Guth Theorem, for instance, proves that any universe, that has, on average, a rate of expansion greater than one absolutely must have have a finite beginning.

In fact, Vilenkin had this to say regarding the beginning of the universe, “It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning.” (Many Worlds in One [New York: Hill and Wang, 2006], p.176)

Emphatically, then, this feeling that the universe is infinitely old, beginningless, or eternal has no basis in any respected mainstream scientific theories of the universe.

This creates the necessity for a first uncaused-cause. After all, something cannot come from nothing as you already correctly believe. As previously established as well, this first uncaused efficient cause must, perforce, be transcendent, beginningless, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, unchanging, omnipotent, personal and good, i.e., God. This understanding, of course, is as perfectly natural to the Neurotypical as compassion and empathy.

No where in Vilenkin‘s works on cosmology does he mention God, Maximilian.

Second, Vilenkin is a “theoretical physicist”, not a experimental physicist, which mean his model on cosmology hasn’t been rigorously tested.

You don’t understand what the word “theoretical” mean, do you?

Until his model can be tested (which required verifiable evidences), it isn’t a scientific theory.

A “theoretical” model is only a “proposal”, and there are many models and hypotheses (hence many proposed hypotheses), most of them are untested, so they are not science.

Vilenkin‘s model is still theoretical.

The Big Bang is the only model that have been tested, but there are some part of the theory, that are still theoretical, like the very first second after the initial expansion, like the singularity, Planck Epoch, the Grand Unification Epoch, the Inflationary Epoch, the Baryogenesis.

All of this took place in the fractions of second after the Big Bang, and it remained untested and theoretical.

But the rest of the Big Bang theory is solid, from the Nucleosynthesis to the formation of the first stars.

The Nucleosynthesis stage started 3 minutes after the Big Bang, and it referred to when nuclei formed around proton (hydrogen atoms) and around protons and neutrons (helium and lithium atoms), but these were ionised, meaning no electrons were bound to these atomic nuclei yet.

Electrons didn’t bond with the atoms, until the universe was cooler in the Recombination Epoch, which started 377,000 years after the Big Bang, where the atoms became electrically stable or neutral because the charges balanced each other out. This bonding to the nuclei, had the dual effect. It made the universe transparent for the first time, and allowed photons (light) to travel freely through space.

This light or photons that we can detect and measure, is what it is known as the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation or CMBR.

CMBR is earlier than the first quasars and the first stars.

There are earlier epochs than the Big Bang Nucleosynthesis Epoch, like the Hadron Epoch (formation of protons and neutrons from quarks) and the Lepton epoch (eg electrons), the quark-gluon epoch (of course, the formation of quarks and of gluons), and many other epochs, between the Baryogenesis and Nucleosynthesis Epoch.

Each epochs took place because the universe continued to expand, which made the universe increasingly cooler.

The further back in time, the hotter and denser was the universe., where the universe in plasma state. The Recombination Epoch that I had already mentioned was the transition that turn the universe from opaque to transparent.

The Big Bang leave the universe as open question, prior to the Planck Epoch. Other models tried to explain, if there was any “before” the Big Bang, but all of them are theoretical, including the model advocated by Vilenkin.

Vilenkin’s model isn’t science until he is able to test it.
 
Last edited:

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
So the other possibility will hold. IOW, there will always be incompleteness.



Not I but Godel himself says that in his paper. You could check the link. Either mind is not Turing machine. Or the reality is beyond description of Turing machine/mechanism.

[QUOTE]I suspect you don't actually understand what Hawking was talking about here. But once again, I am NOT a positivist. I don't think that only mathematical laws are allowed as scientific explanations.

I expected the bolded part. Actually you could have also said that Hawking was wrong. Ha ha.

I repeat from Hawking:

Godel and the End of Physics

What is the relation between Godel’s theorem and whether we can formulate the theory of the universe in terms of a finite number of principles? One connection is obvious. According to the positivist philosophy of science, a physical theory is a mathematical model. So if there are mathematical results that can not be proved, there are physical problems that can not be predicted.......

But we are not angels, who view the universe from the outside. Instead, we and our models are both part of the universe we are describing.
Thus a physical theory is self referencing, like in Godel’s theorem. One might therefore expect it to be either inconsistent or incomplete. The theories we have so far are both inconsistent and incomplete.....

if one can't define the wave function point wise, one can't predict the future to arbitrary accuracy, even in the reduced determinism of quantum theory. What we need is a formulation of M theory that takes account of the black hole information limit. But then our experience with supergravity and string theory, and the analogy of Godel’s theorem, suggest that even this formulation will be incomplete......

Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind....

...

So, whether positivist or not, Incompleteness applies to physics also.
...

Right. We will never be able to tell if there is a collection of moments in time whose cardinality is strictly between the cardinality of the natural numbers and that of the real numbers.

So I agree that there are questions that can be asked that have no answer in the material world.

So what? How does incompleteness imply a non-material? Those questions are, essentially, meaningless at that point.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Right. We will never be able to tell if there is a collection of moments in time whose cardinality is strictly between the cardinality of the natural numbers and that of the real numbers.

So I agree that there are questions that can be asked that have no answer in the material world.

So what? How does incompleteness imply a non-material? Those questions are, essentially, meaningless at that point.

Okay. The universe — all matter, energy, space and time — cannot explain itself. How does incompleteness imply a non-material? I think you have answered already. There are questions that have no answer in material world.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Has anyone stated what the ultimate mystery of nature is?

Our nature and thenature of reality are the mystery.

In words you can understand were we created by a consciousness or not and do we serve a purpose or not? What is the purpose? How do we come to learn the answers?

I know you already have these answers just like everyone else.


ul·ti·mate
/ˈəltəmət/

adjective
  1. 1.
    being or happening at the end of a process; final.
    "their ultimate aim was to force his resignation"
    synonyms: eventual, last, final, concluding, conclusive, terminal, end, endmost, furthest; More

Although the OP was poorly worded, your response does not address the question. You talk about creation whereas "ultimate" refers to endings. Also, "ultimate" refers to one, in your response, you list multiple different things.

You might want to get an understanding of the meaning of words before trying to criticize my comprehension.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
You might want to get an understanding of the meaning of words before trying to criticize my comprehension.

Yes. I might.

Until we reach the end of our existence the nature of an "ultimate question" is an unknown.

Maybe you are reading far too much and into a word and taking it far too literally.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Okay. The universe — all matter, energy, space and time — cannot explain itself. How does incompleteness imply a non-material? I think you have answered already. There are questions that have no answer in material world.

And I would simply say those questions have no answer at all.

For example, in math there are questions that cannot be answered without making additional assumptions. Generally, we simply leave such questions open.

Not every question has an answer.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Okay. The universe — all matter, energy, space and time — cannot explain itself. How does incompleteness imply a non-material? I think you have answered already. There are questions that have no answer in material world.

Let me expand further. We know that QM is probabilistic and not deterministic. So we *know* there are events that we cannot predict the outcome of. We have known this for almost a century now.

In math, we *know that every sufficiently complex axiom system is either inconsistent or incomplete. The latter simply means that there are questions that cannot be resolved. For the standard axiom system, I can give a list (not that it would make much sense to anyone other than a mathematician).

All this means is that some questions have no answer. That is, perhaps, surprising to some, but it is a simple fact, even for mathematics. But that in NO way implies that the answers lie in postulating some non-material world. In fact, doing so only pushes back the incompleteness, it does not eliminate it. ANY (recursive) system complicated enough to talk about natural numbers is either inconsistent or incomplete. You can add additional assumptions all you want and the result is *still* subject to that same Godelian fact.

So, even if you assume a non-material world, there will *still* be questions that cannot be answered. That means you will need to add an additional non-(non-material world) on top to answer those questions, ad infinitum.

The most sensible thing to do, as far as I can see, is then to simply admit some questions cannot be answered: they simply have no truth value one way or the other. And a non-material existence seems like a very good place to draw the line since it is, by definition, untestable.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
ul·ti·mate
/ˈəltəmət/

adjective
  1. 1.
    being or happening at the end of a process; final.
    "their ultimate aim was to force his resignation"
    synonyms: eventual, last, final, concluding, conclusive, terminal, end, endmost, furthest; More

Although the OP was poorly worded, your response does not address the question. You talk about creation whereas "ultimate" refers to endings. Also, "ultimate" refers to one, in your response, you list multiple different things.

You might want to get an understanding of the meaning of words before trying to criticize my comprehension.


And now the noun definition of ultimate..

noun
1. the best achievable or imaginable of its kind.

"the ultimate in decorative luxury"

synonyms:utmost, optimum, last word, very limit, height, epitome, peak, pinnacle, acme, apex, apogee, zenith, culmination, perfection,nonpareil, extreme, extremity
 

ecco

Veteran Member
And now the noun definition of ultimate..

noun
1. the best achievable or imaginable of its kind.

"the ultimate in decorative luxury"

synonyms:utmost, optimum, last word, very limit, height, epitome, peak, pinnacle, acme, apex, apogee, zenith, culmination, perfection,nonpareil, extreme, extremity

Wow! Another critic! One who doesn't understand the difference between a noun and a verb.

Definition of noun
: any member of a class of words that typically can be combined with determiners (see DETERMINER sense b) to serve as the subject of a verb, can be interpreted as singular or plural, can be replaced with a pronoun, and refer to an entity, quality, state, action, or concept


Definition of verb
(Entry 1 of 2)

: a word that characteristically is the grammatical center of a predicate and expresses an act, occurrence, or mode of being, that in various languages is inflected for agreement with the subject, for tense, for voice, for mood, or for aspect, and that typically has rather full descriptive meaning and characterizing quality but is sometimes nearly devoid of these especially when used as an auxiliary or linking​


Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature.

"mystery" is the noun
"ultimate" is the verb

Before you try to give grammar lessons, take some grammar lessons. I learned the difference between nouns and verbs in the third grade. You still have time.

But even if we substitute your noun definition for "ultimate" we end up with: Science cannot solve the best achievable mystery of nature. That doesn't make any sense either, does it?
 

Maximilian

Energetic proclaimer of Jehovah God's Kingdom.
No where in Vilenkin‘s works on cosmology does he mention God, Maximilian.


I'm not positing a so-called "God of the gaps," to explain gaps in our scientific knowledge. Rather, my argument is solidly based upon the best of what we do know in science. The premise that the universe began to exist is not a religious declaration nor a theological one. You can find that statement in any contemporary textbook on astrophysics or cosmology. And it is supported, as we've seen, by the vast majority of cosmologists today.


So I'm simply saying that the best scientific evidence we have today supports the truth of that premise. And from that, the rest of the deductive argument follows. So in no way is this an appeal to ignorance, to try to punt to God to explain what we don't understand. It is a natural conclusion from the logical validity of the preceding premisses. In other words, for the neurotypical, it's simple, mundane logic.



As Physicist and Mathematician James Clerk Maxwell put it, “Science is incompetent to reason upon the creation of matter itself out of nothing. We have reached the utmost limit of our thinking faculties when we have admitted that because matter cannot be eternal and self-existent it must have been created.”
 

ecco

Veteran Member
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature.

Yes. I might.
Until we reach the end of our existence the nature of an "ultimate question" is an unknown.
Maybe you are reading far too much and into a word and taking it far too literally.

I originally just asked a simple question. At that time I wasn't taking anything too literally as I recognize that English is not Atanu's first language. I was sincerely asking what was considered the ultimate mystery of nature.



Instead of addressing my question, or just ignoring it, you got snarky with your comment to me: "In words you can understand." However, even in words that you thought I could understand, you didn't / couldn't formulate an answer to my question.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
As Physicist and Mathematician James Clerk Maxwell put it, “Science is incompetent to reason upon the creation of matter itself out of nothing. We have reached the utmost limit of our thinking faculties when we have admitted that because matter cannot be eternal and self-existent it must have been created.”
Is that the James Clerk Maxwell who died in 1879? I think we can excuse his level of knowledge considering the electron wasn't discovered until the year of his death.
 
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