Slavery in the bible

[sooda]

EXACTLY!! There are so many weird and extremely detailed instructions in the bible, but nothing on slavery except on how to own your slaves.

The curse of Ham says that Ham will serve his brothers.

Some Christians said, "Africans and their descendants are destined to be servants, and should accept their status as slaves in fulfillment of biblical prophecy."

 

[exchemist]

No, but there are those who'd hold up the bible as some sort of moral codex - and hold people like Peter as sacred. Yes, they were people - but if god wanted to provide us a text from which to draw our moral code - how could it be so awful?

I am sure most thinking Christians have the wit to realise scripture carries with it baggage from the milieu in which it was written and are capable of making due allowance for that.

As I've said in another post, I am rather hamstrung in this discussion by not being able to recall anywhere in the bible where slavery is put forward as morally virtuous. Can you help?

 

[sooda]

I am sure most thinking Christians have the wit to realise scripture carries with it baggage from the milieu in which it was written and are capable of making due allowance for that.

As I've said in another post, I am rather hamstrung in this discussion by not being able to recall anywhere in the bible where slavery is put forward as morally virtuous. Can you help?

See curse of Ham.

 

[exchemist]

The moral/acceptable means by which to practice slavery is presented. Not to mention quotes like "Slaves, obey your masters." It is a design of the law such that practice of slavery has its niche.

What if, during the times in U.S. history of the heaviest segregation, our law books prescribed the moral way in which you could beat black people in the street such that you weren't to be punished if you followed the guidelines? "Never use a rod with over 300 MPa tensile strength.", "Be sure you are in full view of at least 3 other witnesses.", "Do not strike to the point that eyes or teeth are lost."

Just think about that. What the hell kind of message do you think something like that would send, honestly?

But the bible wasn't written during modern US history and your analogy is not an analogy at all.

You quote St Paul (Colossians 3: 22). But all he is doing is telling people to do their jobs with honesty and without complaint as a service to God, who will recognise their sacrifice. And then he goes on to tell the masters of the slaves to treat them fairly "knowing that you too have a Master in heaven".

There are two messages, I think. One is like Christ saying "Render unto Caesar" , in other words, Christianity is not about political revolution. The other is a message of stoicism and comfort, encouraging people feeling downtrodden that they are not forgotten by God - and reminding the masters that they are accountable to God for the way they treat their slaves.

Quote mining one snippet of this out of context, and pretending it is a moral endorsement of slavery, is ridiculous.

 

[exchemist]

See curse of Ham.

Noah's so-called curse of Ham (which was actually a curse of Canaan) is arguably a Jewish justification of subjection of the Caananites, which I gather they did in some epoch or other. Various people, centuries later, have manipulated this obscure story into something they could use to salve their consciences about slavery, e.g. pretending that Ham must have been black etc, but there is really nothing in it to recommend slavery to Christians.

 

[sooda]

Noah's so-called curse of Ham (which was actually a curse of Canaan) is arguably a Jewish justification of subjection of the Caananites, which I gather they did in some epoch or other. Various people, centuries later, have manipulated this obscure story into something they could use to salve their consciences about slavery, e.g. pretending that Ham must have been black etc, but there is really nothing in it to recommend slavery to Christians.

Well, the Table of Nations is pretty sloppy but supposedly Ham was the father of Africans after the fictional global flood.

 

[exchemist]

Well, the Table of Nations is pretty sloppy but supposedly Ham was the father of Africans after the fictional global flood.

According to whom, though? None of that is in the text. All the places mentioned are in the near and middle East, presumably because that was all the people who wrote it knew of the world.

 

[sooda]

According to whom, though? None of that is in the text. All the places mentioned are in the near and middle East, presumably because that was all the people who wrote it knew of the world.

If you believe in Noah's flood, I suppose its not such a leap to believe Ham was black.


When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, he said,
“Cursed be Canaan!
The lowest of slaves
will he be to his brothers.”
He also said,
“Praise be to the Lord, the God of Shem!
May Canaan be the slave of Shem.
May God extend Japheth’s territory;
may Japheth live in the tents of Shem,
and may Canaan be the slave of Japheth.”


Ham means "hot" or "sunburnt." Cursed by Noah, his sons were Cush, Egypt, Put, and Canaan.

One of Ham's grandsons was Nimrod, a mighty hunter, king over Babel. Nimrod also built the ancient city of Nineveh, which later played a part in the story of Jonah. (Of course Nimrod was also a myth)

What Happened to the Sons of Noah After the Flood?

 

[dybmh]

And, it's all a lie.

I know you're talking about the Old Testament; but, I'm curious about something.

Matthew 5:17? Why would Jesus support the Law and the Prophets if, as you claim, it's all a lie?

 

[dybmh]

someone could beat you within an inch of your life and get off scot free as long as you got up after a few days?

This part needs support. Do you have any examples where someone was "beaten within an inch of their lives"? Otherwise it is an amateur attempt to interpret an ancient legal system.

 

[dybmh]

There are so many weird and extremely detailed instructions in the bible, but nothing on slavery except on how to own your slaves.

So, admittedly, there is a lot that is not known based solely on the text. A complete understanding of the appropriate treatment of Slaves requires more than the text in the Old Testament.

 

[sooda]

I know you're talking about the Old Testament; but, I'm curious about something.

Matthew 5:17? Why would Jesus support the Law and the Prophets if, as you claim, it's all a lie?

Perhaps Jesus didn't know they were myths.

 

[dybmh]

Regarding Harsh treatment of non-jewish slaves... there are indeed limits placed on this: This is from the laws of servitude ( Sefer Avadim, Maimonides, Mishneh Torah)

"
It is permissible to have a Canaanite slave perform excruciating labor. Although this is the law, the attribute of piety and the way of wisdom is for a person to be merciful and to pursue justice, not to make his slaves carry a heavy yoke, nor cause them distress. He should allow them to partake of all the food and drink he serves. This was the practice of the Sages of the first generations who would give their slaves from every dish of which they themselves would partake. And they would provide food for their animals and slaves before partaking of their own meals. And so, it is written Psalms 123:2: "As the eyes of slaves to their master's hand, and like the eyes of a maid-servant to her mistress' hand, so are our eyes to God."

Similarly, we should not embarrass a slave by our deeds or with words, for the Torah prescribed that they perform service, not that they be humiliated. Nor should one shout or vent anger upon them extensively. Instead, one should speak to them gently, and listen to their claims. This is explicitly stated with regard to the positive paths of Job for which he was praised Job 31:13, 15: "Have I ever shunned justice for my slave and maid-servant when they quarreled with me.... Did not He who made me in the belly make him? Was it not the One who prepared us in the womb?"

Cruelty and arrogance are found only among idol-worshipping gentiles. By contrast, the descendants of Abraham our patriarch, i.e., the Jews whom the Holy One, blessed be He, granted the goodness of the Torah and commanded to observe righteous statutes and judgments, are merciful to all.

And similarly, with regard to the attributes of the Holy One, blessed be He, which He commanded us to emulate, it is written Psalms 145:9: "His mercies are upon all of His works." And whoever shows mercy to others will have mercy shown to him, as implied by Deuteronomy 13:18: "He will show you mercy, and be merciful upon you and multiply you."

This is chapter 9 of the book. The last chapter. The last page; the final words: "Be Merciful".

 

[Cooky]

I'm not claiming that secularists are perfect - not sure why you'd bring that up. The point is that most secular people (especially humanists) don't have any texts which advocate for slavery... can any Christian say the same?

We can. I've never seen any Christian text that advocates slavery.

 

[sooda]

We can. I've never seen any Christian text that advocates slavery.

Christians asked who could question the Word of God when it said, "slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling" (Ephesians 6:5), or "tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect" (Titus 2:9).

 

[Enoch07]

I'd like to see where these statistics came from (because I have seen sources that cite "low percentage" numbers as a myth, and stating that the figure was more like 32% according to an 1860 census), but, the South, in general, was afraid for its financial independence were slavery to fall and feared what it would mean to their lifestyle to suddenly be surrounded by a population of freed slaves (i.e. "black people").

That is the myth northerners like to believe in. Slaves were extremely expensive. Most southerners were very poor people.

Viral post gets it wrong about extent of slavery in 1860

"Using Census data to research his book, Glatthaar calculated that 4.9 percent of people in the slaveholding states owned slaves."

Even MORE obviously

Christian abolitionist ended slavery and that destroys your false narrative.

Are you implying that what you're labeling "secularists" were the majority slave owners and slavery supporters? What forms of justification did they use for their argumentation? Can you cite any examples?

Sure I'll cite you.

And this is where there is an egregious problem. Secularly minded individuals who wanted to argue for keeping slavery had to come up with secular justifications as to why it is acceptable to own another human being - of which there are basically none outside of appealing to greed and apathy.

 

[Cooky]

Christians asked who could question the Word of God when it said, "slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling" (Ephesians 6:5), or "tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect" (Titus 2:9).

Those are not Christian texts, those are ancient Jewish texts. Christian thought is expressed through the "New Covenant"... Which is a new way of thinking... Set for a new age.

 

[sooda]

Those are not Christian texts, those are ancient Jewish texts. Christian thought is expressed through the "New Covenant"... Which is a new way of thinking... Set for a new age.

Titus and Ephesians?????

 

[Cooky]

Titus and Ephesians?????

Isnt it? I dont know, i never read it.

 

[leov]

That does not appear to be the case. Jews as a population had a higher percentage of slave ownership. But their numbers were so small that they still played a very limited roll in the slave trade:

Jews and the African Slave Trade | My Jewish Learning

From the linked article:

'Davis went on to note that in the American South in 1830 there were “120 Jews among the 45,000 slaveholders owning twenty or more slaves and only twenty Jews among the 12,000 slaveholders owning fifty or more slaves.” '

A high percentage of Jews owning slaves can give a false picture. Population wise they were a fraction of a percentage of the overall population so even with a high percentage of slave ownership they still played a very minor role.

Slavery in America began with white Christians shipped from Britain.