Bible & Critical Thinking

[dybmh]

Wait, atheist fundamentalists truly exist, and are not just a caricature?

Of course "fundys" vary a lot. One thing they do
though, I think, have in common is a bedrock
level of ignorance / intellectual dishonesty built
into their beliefs.

I think your answer is here AT-AT:

you asked: "Is Bible fundamentalism compatible with Critical Thinking?"

"Fundys" vary a lot. The ones whose beliefs are built on a "bedrock" that is "ignorance / intellectual dishonesty", no, those beliefs are not compatible with Critical Thinking.

But "Fundys" vary a lot. Even an Atheist can act like a "fundy" when their claims are ignorant and lack intellectual honesty.

 

[Audie]

The problem is that the Bible deliberately leaves the deep meaning open for interpretation. Their is no objectively true deep meaning because what is said isn't explicit. I think they become serious with their "true deep meaning" to control people.

I would say that most are intellectually dishonest and ignorant out of fear. I do know a few who are honest and say that certain beliefs of theirs are not objective while others aren't. There is also a lot of mental gymnastics jumping around with them.

Regarding educated and honest creationists, what do do you mean by creationist? Those guys who reject evolution just because their book says otherwise?

When anybody wants to make a factual claim then they should provide examples. If they dont then disregard them. You will just lower yourself to their level and they will beat you with experience.

The problem is that the Bible deliberately leaves the deep meaning open for interpretation. Their is no objectively true deep meaning because what is said isn't explicit. I think they become serious with their "true deep meaning" to control people.

I would say that most are intellectually dishonest and ignorant out of fear. I do know a few who are honest and say that certain beliefs of theirs are not objective while others aren't. There is also a lot of mental gymnastics jumping around with them.

Regarding educated and honest creationists, what do do you mean by creationist? Those guys who reject evolution just because their book says otherwise?

When anybody wants to make a factual claim then they should provide examples. If they dont then disregard them. You will just lower yourself to their level and they will beat you with experience.

Whether the bible actually has deep meaning,
or what the intent of the authors may have been,
who knows.

By creationist, I mean the 6 day poof, flood, no
evolution people. And for greater clarity, I really
should have said "those who argue for their being
a scientific basis for creationism" not just those who
choose out of faith to accept it.

Re disregard, I did not have time to delete the post.

 

[Audie]

I think with regards to that picture, we shouldn't confuse what the Bible portrays as a woman's capabilities, with what it says should be a woman's "position", such as regarding headship in the New Testament.

That makes sense. I get touchy about sexism, and
sometimes may see it where it isnt.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Whether the bible actually has deep meaning,
or what the intent of the authors may have been,
who knows.

By creationist, I mean the 6 day poof, flood, no
evolution people. And for greater clarity, I really
should have said "those who argue for their being
a scientific basis for creationism" not just those who
choose out of faith to accept it.

Re disregard, I did not have time to delete the post.

If you wish to check out the bibles deeper meaning then check out Jordan Petersen's analysis of the Bible series on Youtube. I see his view as green, but he has interesting viewpoints.

That shouldn't surprise us though, since fictional books in general have deeper meanings. My view of religion is not that they are necessary true from surface reading, but what the symbology and patterns represent tell us what the author really wanted to express. I believe that those who created the old religions were really the deep thinkers of the time. So I believe that religious books are true and thought provoking in the same way as stories like the Matrix, Blade Runner, Lord of the Rings and other great stories are thought provoking.

I agree with you on the creationist point. It is one thing to believe and the next thing to be intellectually dishonest with evidence. I find creationists to be fooling themselves out of desperation.

 

[Samael_Khan]

That makes sense. I get touchy about sexism, and
sometimes may see it where it isnt.

I understand.

 

[dybmh]

what is the
case with the scurrilous accusation just posted
about me being intellectually dishonest, I can
readily point to examples, and explain why it is
dishonest.

Dishonest ( google definition ):

• behaving or prone to behave in an untrustworthy or fraudulent way
• intended to mislead or cheat

Please do "readily point to examples and explain" why the accusation was fraudulent. And I am interested in how you can show my intention.

 

[dybmh]

@Audie, It is not fraudulent. Here is an other example of denying scholarship if it doesn't agree with your position.

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/isis-as-salafī-or-why-this-label-is-accurate.220870/

In this thread, I asked for a source of claim you made. You didn't have a source prepared. When you went to look for a source, the source you provided, you didn't read it. And the source actually disproved your claim. When I pointed this out you claimed that the cite you chose was apologetic towards Islam and the information provided was not credible. Then you provided a different source but did not acknowledge the this website's bias and further declined discussing the matter further.

Here's a little more of your own words describing intellectual integrity:

One must guard against any sort of bias

 

[Audie]

If you wish to check out the bibles deeper meaning then check out Jordan Petersen's analysis of the Bible series on Youtube. I see his view as green, but he has interesting viewpoints.

That shouldn't surprise us though, since fictional books in general have deeper meanings. My view of religion is not that they are necessary true from surface reading, but what the symbology and patterns represent tell us what the author really wanted to express. I believe that those who created the old religions were really the deep thinkers of the time. So I believe that religious books are true and thought provoking in the same way as stories like the Matrix, Blade Runner, Lord of the Rings and other great stories are thought provoking.

I agree with you on the creationist point. It is one thing to believe and the next thing to be intellectually dishonest with evidence. I find creationists to be fooling themselves out of desperation.

I wonder if there really is a consistent pattern,
though, in what bible authors wanted to portray.
It does not seem to, to me. Nor in the intellectual
depth of the stories, some of which are as
another poster put it, idiotic. Others are, yeah,
soaring.

What people really wanted to express, well,
I sometimes wish such people would just say
what they mean. If the meaning is "here is
food for thought, should you be so inclined"
then that is another matter.

Re fooling out of desperation, I do see why it
is important. At least, I understand some of it,
including that in general the easiest person there is
to fool is ourselves.

 

[Audie]

if someone is interested to know this, I am
not going to read or otherwise encourage
them.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I wonder if there really is a consistent pattern,
though, in what bible authors wanted to portray.
It does not seem to, to me. Nor in the intellectual
depth of the stories, some of which are as
another poster put it, idiotic. Others are, yeah,
soaring.

What people really wanted to express, well,
I sometimes wish such people would just say
what they mean. If the meaning is "here is
food for thought, should you be so inclined"
then that is another matter.

Re fooling out of desperation, I do see why it
is important. At least, I understand some of it,
including that in general the easiest person there is
to fool is ourselves.

Have you ever researched the relevence of stories? As in, why do people write them and why do people endulge in them?

I, for one, find the idea of sin as expressed in the Bible fascinating and it has had a very big personal effect. Whether it is true or not doesn't matter, but I can see that it is another way of explaining that we all fall short, none of us are perfect and that we shouldn't just give in to our faulty nature but try and fight it despite it being an uphill battle. What the New Testament brings out is that we should accept that we all have faults, therefore we are all on an equal playing field naturally. It even shows the nation of Israel, Gods people, being worse than who they saw as sinners, showing that even God's were equal to the other nations. Romans two points out that even those of the Nations have a law within them, being also made in the image of God, and they are a law to themselves, often better morally than many of God's people. Therefore, it helps us to come to terms with our falling short. The God of the New Testament says that he will make up for the rest. So we can feel comfortable in our faultiness. God comes into the equation in that our relationship with him is the only thing that sets us apart from everyone else.

That is the power of the story to me personally. Often, story helps me understand things better than if a person tells me something directly. For instance, a persons life story of how he embraced drugs and then it nearly killed him, is emotionally more powerful and more impactful than someone telling another that they shouldn't use drugs, and would have more of an impact on the viewer.

To me the Bible is very intellectual, at least for its time. It just doesn't spoon feed readers. The tricky thing about the bible is that it is very point form it seems to me. Romans, Ecclesiastes, Genesis 1 up until the flood, seem to have a very deep insight into humanity and the reality of who we are and what actions lead to which consequences. Also it is very intellectual to me from a theological point of view.

Then again, I am a creative person, being a designer and an artists, loving the arts much more than the sciences, so I favour the self expressive way of doing things more than the objective way, which I find boring.

 

[Samael_Khan]

if someone is interested to know this, I am
not going to read or otherwise encourage
them.

Not read what? And not encourage them to do what? Sorry, I dunno if you are referring to our discussion or not.

 

[Audie]

Not read what? And not encourage them to do what? Sorry, I dunno if you are referring to our discussion or not.

not you, sorry that you spent even a moment thinking it might be

 

[Samael_Khan]

not you, sorry that you spent even a moment thinking it might be

No problem.

 

[Audie]

Have you ever researched the relevence of stories? As in, why do people write them and why do people endulge in them?

I, for one, find the idea of sin as expressed in the Bible fascinating and it has had a very big personal effect. Whether it is true or not doesn't matter, but I can see that it is another way of explaining that we all fall short, none of us are perfect and that we shouldn't just give in to our faulty nature but try and fight it despite it being an uphill battle. What the New Testament brings out is that we should accept that we all have faults, therefore we are all on an equal playing field naturally. It even shows the nation of Israel, Gods people, being worse than who they saw as sinners, showing that even God's were equal to the other nations. Romans two points out that even those of the Nations have a law within them, being also made in the image of God, and they are a law to themselves, often better morally than many of God's people. Therefore, it helps us to come to terms with our falling short. The God of the New Testament says that he will make up for the rest. So we can feel comfortable in our faultiness. God comes into the equation in that our relationship with him is the only thing that sets us apart from everyone else.

That is the power of the story to me personally. Often, story helps me understand things better than if a person tells me something directly. For instance, a persons life story of how he embraced drugs and then it nearly killed him, is emotionally more powerful and more impactful than someone telling another that they shouldn't use drugs, and would have more of an impact on the viewer.

To me the Bible is very intellectual, at least for its time. It just doesn't spoon feed readers. The tricky thing about the bible is that it is very point form it seems to me. Romans, Ecclesiastes, Genesis 1 up until the flood, seem to have a very deep insight into humanity and the reality of who we are and what actions lead to which consequences. Also it is very intellectual to me from a theological point of view.

Then again, I am a creative person, being a designer and an artists, loving the arts much more than the sciences, so I favour the self expressive way of doing things more than the objective way, which I find boring.

To me, the bible is just making "holy" the things-values, ethics,
etc-that I grew up with as part of how one lives.

But without the mixed messages, obscurantism and
fantasy.

Also of course, we do have our own deep rich
culture of mythology; and I am disinclined to
adopt an alien civilizaiton's culture as if it were
my own.

 

[Samael_Khan]

To me, the bible is just making "holy" the things-values, ethics,
etc-that I grew up with as part of how one lives.

But without the mixed messages, obscurantism and
fantasy.

Also of course, we do have our own deep rich
culture of mythology; and I am disinclined to
adopt an alien civilizaiton's culture as if it were
my own.

The Bible does make Holy many things that we grew up with. It even says that all men have their own law in their hearts so it only makes sense that universally humans in general would want to do what the bible says is Holy.

Also of course, we do have our own deep rich culture of mythology; and I am disinclined to adopt an alien civilizaiton's culture as if it were my own.

I would say that all mythologies are deep. I love them all

 

[Audie]

The Bible does make Holy many things that we grew up with. It even says that all men have their own law in their hearts so it only makes sense that universally humans in general would want to do what the bible says is Holy.



I would say that all mythologies are deep. I love them all

It makes holy the keeping of slaves, making military booty
of virgin girls, and, of course, things like the psycho-monster
actions of "god" in the flood, or passover.

Mixed messages.

I am not much interested in mythology. When I was
like between 8 and 14 or so, I read everything there
was to find on Greek mythology, but myths just do not
interest me now. Too much real stuff to think about.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

It makes holy the keeping of slaves, making military booty
of virgin girls, and, of course, things like the psycho-monster
actions of "god" in the flood, or passover.

Mixed messages.

I am not much interested in mythology. When I was
like between 8 and 14 or so, I read everything there
was to find on Greek mythology, but myths just do not
interest me now. Too much real stuff to think about.

I need to read more Greek mythology. It sounds interesting.

 

[Samael_Khan]

It makes holy the keeping of slaves, making military booty
of virgin girls, and, of course, things like the psycho-monster
actions of "god" in the flood, or passover.

Mixed messages.

I am not much interested in mythology. When I was
like between 8 and 14 or so, I read everything there
was to find on Greek mythology, but myths just do not
interest me now. Too much real stuff to think about.

Slavery in the bible was the equivalent of maids and servants of today. People sold themselves into slavery. Also slaves had to be freed after 7 years. It isn't talking about kidnapping people and enslaving them:

Exodus 21:16
Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 24:7
If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you.

Although the beating of slaves is another thing altogether.

It doesn't seem like virgin girls would have a choice so that is definitely messed up. And how they knew they were virgins is also weird.

As for God killing: I actually do not have a problem with that unless he says that he won't do it and then does, making him a liar. But then a creator can even do that. A creator owns his creation and theoretically a God would own his creation and a creator has the right to do what he/she wants with it. That might even be a dilemma that we have to face if we create sentient beings ourselves in the future. I think it is also a philosophical matter of ethics.

The interest in mythology is a matter of preference anyway. It is a good way for distracting us when stuff gets too real!

 

[Milton Platt]

Numbers 22:28-30 New International Version (NIV)
28 Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”

29 Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now.”

30 The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?”

“No,” he said.



----



Genesis 38:9-10 New International Version (NIV)
9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his [seed] on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother.10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.



---



Question: Is Bible fundamentalism compatible with Critical Thinking?

View attachment 29961

I always wondered how some fundamentalists are capable of critical thinking and reasoning in all other areas of their life, but can ignore them with regard to their religion.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I always wondered how some fundamentalists are capable of critical thinking and reasoning in all other areas of their life, but can ignore them with regard to their religion.

I guess because in the process of applying the same Critical Thinking, they might have to reject all of their own beliefs. I dunno.