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Enough To Make Fair-Minded Christians Sick To Their Stomachs

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Where in the world did I ever say that?
You balked at people's outrage that a Christian influence was teaching about God in sex-ed class. That's what you did - there's no denying that. Doesn't that necessarily mean that you feel those people didn't have anything to be outraged about? Doesn't that necessarily mean that you think teaching about God in sex ed class isn't such a bad thing? Or do you condemn teaching about God in sex ed class as much as you condemn "drag-queen presentations?"

Hmmmmm.... what "facts" are you talking about? Abortion without parental input? Drag-queen presentations? Indoctrination of children?
You lost me here.
Of course I did. The thread is about sex-ed curriculum not being allowed to include Christian teachings, and how some poor fool thought it a great idea to break laws to do it anyway. That is what it is about. The "facts" that I am saying should be the focus of any sex-ed curriculum are the items and knowledge we know to be true regarding human sexual interactions - those things are what unbiased "Sex education" is about. Things like "boys have a penis, girls have a vagina." Those types of facts. The types of facts that probably would have made the Christian woman from the OP squirm in her seat - even though they are the same facts for everyone, everywhere and will be regardless what God has to say on the matter.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
To say nothing of non-Christians.

"One of the best things about Christians breaking the law and promoting their religion in public schools is that they can’t stop publicly bragging about it, making it easier to stop.

A couple of weeks ago, the Pulaski County Schools in Kentucky invited Michelle Cooper of the AIM Pregnancy Support Center to speak with 8th grade health classes at Northern and Southern middle schools all about “sex, STDs and abortion.”

The problem is that AIM is a Christian organization. And even though Cooper is listed on the group’s website as a “Medical Team Supervisor,” she has no medical training. And she freely boasted about how she “was FREE to talk about how amazing God is! Minds were changed today concerning abortion!!!!”
AIMMedicalNotReally1.png


AIMMedicalNotReally2.png


Now the Freedom From Religion Foundation is calling for more details about why this partnership occurred and demanding the District put a stop to it. No students should be taught about health education from an unlicensed ministry leader with no qualifications and a very clear right-wing agenda.

Inviting a self-described Christian ministry to hijack public school health classes in furtherance of its evangelistic agenda is not only a grave injury to your students’ education, but a plain violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment,” [FFRF Legal Fellow Colin] McNamara wrote to Superintendent Patrick Richardson.

FFRF also pointed out the troubling history of crisis pregnancy centers commandeering public schools to proselytize to students and the constitutional concerns with such tactics.
“Public schools exist to educate; CPCs like AIM exist to indoctrinate — by AIM’s own admission, they did not come to the district’s middle schools to teach sex education, but so that ‘minds would be changed concerning abortion,’” McNamara added. “The district can play no part in helping a private religious organization gain access to other people’s children to further their evangelism.”


Finally, FFRF addresses the danger that results from denying students comprehensive, science-based sex education in favor of widely discredited religious rhetoric.


“It is wildly irresponsible for these public schools to allow members of a faith-based anti-abortion ministry access to impressionable students,” said FFRF Co-President Annie Laurie Gaylor. “This infiltration of church dogma into Kentucky classrooms senselessly endangers the health of students and must stop.”

Incidentally, AIM isn’t even a healthcare provider. They offer pregnancy tests, ultrasounds, and a Bible Study. No medical professionals work there. Their stated goal is to offer “the gospel of Jesus Christ in both word and deed to men and women dealing with pregnancy.”
source


Q.
Is it really Christian to misrepresent oneself and dupe others so as to illegally push an agenda?

.





.

Speaking as someone who has made numerous school presentations regarding abstinence, abortion and etc. I might need to remind you of the difference between freedom of church and state (non-constitutional) and freedom of speech, religion, expression, etc. (constitutional).

PS. I led a bunch of young people to Christ IN SCHOOL while educators and administrators watched me do it, and appreciated that the little darlings were going to turn out to be lovely law-abiding citizens. WINNING!

PPS. I never duped anyone and they knew my agenda before I entered the school and wanted me there, just like smart prison wardens WANT missionaries inside, to convert all the atheists (who all claim to love Jesus to the parole board) to actually LOVE Jesus. WINNING!
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Speaking as someone who has made numerous school presentations regarding abstinence, abortion and etc. I might need to remind you of the difference between freedom of church and state (non-constitutional) and freedom of speech, religion, expression, etc. (constitutional).

PS. I led a bunch of young people to Christ IN SCHOOL while educators and administrators watched me do it, and appreciated that the little darlings were going to turn out to be lovely law-abiding citizens. WINNING!

PPS. I never duped anyone and they knew my agenda before I entered the school and wanted me there,
Bottom line, parents send their kids to school under the assumption that the school will teach FACTS to the children, and an extreme minimum of anything more. Parents do not want schools deciding what worldview(s) their children get proselytized to them. That's where a line is drawn, and it honestly sounds like your shenanigans crossed it, from your descriptions. You, the educators and the administrators were all in the wrong according to a great many people while you were "WINNING!" Most likely including the law.
just like smart prison wardens WANT missionaries inside, to convert all the atheists (who all claim to love Jesus to the parole board) to actually LOVE Jesus. WINNING!
This point is completely baseless. Have you looked into any statistics surrounding the number of atheists in prisons? The study I looked at was conducted in 2015, and the number of self-reported atheists in prisons within the U.S. was around 0.1% (yes, that ONE TENTH of a percent), while the number of some form of Christian/Catholic (I used the numbers to sum up things like Pentecostal, Catholic, JW's, Mormons/LDS, etc.) was 56%. Now, for your statement about atheists claiming to "love Jesus" to the parole board to hold up, you would have to claim that a HUGE portion of the prisoners polled lied about the religion they hail as their own. Do you honestly believe they were all atheists hoping to impress the parole board by selecting some actual religion on an ANONYMOUS Pew Research polling card?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
So if a teacher at a public school lead the class in an Islamic, Hindu, or even Satanic prayer, you wouldn't mind? Even if your kid was in that class? Or if your tax dollars funded that school?
We were talking of creation, you have moved the goal posts to prayer.
No prayers lead by anyone. I wouldn´t mind if they mentioned their religion, or how they believe creation came about, as long as it was information, and not evangelizing.

Itś called cultural awareness.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Bottom line, parents send their kids to school under the assumption that the school will teach FACTS to the children, and an extreme minimum of anything more. Parents do not want schools deciding what worldview(s) their children get proselytized to them. That's where a line is drawn, and it honestly sounds like your shenanigans crossed it, from your descriptions. You, the educators and the administrators were all in the wrong according to a great many people while you were "WINNING!" Most likely including the law.

This point is completely baseless. Have you looked into any statistics surrounding the number of atheists in prisons? The study I looked at was conducted in 2015, and the number of self-reported atheists in prisons within the U.S. was around 0.1% (yes, that ONE TENTH of a percent), while the number of some form of Christian/Catholic (I used the numbers to sum up things like Pentecostal, Catholic, JW's, Mormons/LDS, etc.) was 56%. Now, for your statement about atheists claiming to "love Jesus" to the parole board to hold up, you would have to claim that a HUGE portion of the prisoners polled lied about the religion they hail as their own. Do you honestly believe they were all atheists hoping to impress the parole board by selecting some actual religion on an ANONYMOUS Pew Research polling card?
How many became believers WHILE IN PRISON, show me those stats.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Abraham lied about Sarah being his sister. He was not the one who was punished for deception, but rather the decieved were punished because they acted on a lie they didn't know was a lie and wouldn't have had they known.

Pharaoh rewarded Abraham .. and Sarah was in harems twice.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
We were talking of creation, you have moved the goal posts to prayer.
No prayers lead by anyone. I wouldn´t mind if they mentioned their religion, or how they believe creation came about, as long as it was information, and not evangelizing.

Itś called cultural awareness.

You brought up the wall between church and state, and I provided scenarios where you might be grateful for it.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
How many became believers WHILE IN PRISON, show me those stats.
In looking, all I can really find are charts showing perceptions on certain religious views growing/shrinking in prison in terms of number of adherents/converts are growing or shrinking. Such as this:
full

However, one thing to keep in mind is that self-reported atheists OUTSIDE OF PRISON (without any incentive to lie about their affiliation) only made up about 3.1% of the U.S. population at the time the study was conducted. And so, the perceptions of shifting above, is extremely unlikely to contain a large number of atheists converting, unless you argue that a huge percentage of the U.S. atheist population is simply in prison AND undergoing conversion - and at that conversion point, that being true would necessarily HUGELY affect the percentage of the U.S. that self-reported as atheist. That is to say, if a large percentage of the U.S. atheist population was imprisoned and underwent conversion, then this would drastically affect the percent of the U.S. population that is atheist, because they would no longer be atheist.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The big problem in my mind is that in the USA "religion" is not allowed to be taught in school,
but the growing SECULAR RELIGION can grow all it likes.
Cultural Marxism, existentialism, post-modernism and the like are the new religions of our
age. It's just... they aint defined as religions. And technically, they are not religions, but they
fill the place of religion.
In my country the push against the teaching of religion has led to the promotion of anti-religion;
corporate figures belonging to religion are attacked; celebrities espousing religion have lost
corporate sponsorship; ministers charged with sexism, racism, whatever; children taught
secularist attitudes towards religion etc..

You should be happy. I hear that is what the Bible predicts it will happen soon before the end of times, whatever that means.

Aren’t you happy to see Jesus landing here soon to vindicate you all? You should celebrate every instance of “persecution” of Christianity, if you believe the prophecy is true.

Ciao

- viole
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The big problem in my mind is that in the USA "religion" is not allowed to be taught in school,
but the growing SECULAR RELIGION can grow all it likes.
Cultural Marxism, existentialism, post-modernism and the like are the new religions of our
age. It's just... they aint defined as religions. And technically, they are not religions, but they
fill the place of religion.
In my country the push against the teaching of religion has led to the promotion of anti-religion;
corporate figures belonging to religion are attacked; celebrities espousing religion have lost
corporate sponsorship; ministers charged with sexism, racism, whatever; children taught
secularist attitudes towards religion etc..

What "secular religion"?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Speaking as someone who has made numerous school presentations regarding abstinence, abortion and etc. I might need to remind you of the difference between freedom of church and state (non-constitutional) and freedom of speech, religion, expression, etc. (constitutional).

PS. I led a bunch of young people to Christ IN SCHOOL while educators and administrators watched me do it, and appreciated that the little darlings were going to turn out to be lovely law-abiding citizens. WINNING!

PPS. I never duped anyone and they knew my agenda before I entered the school and wanted me there, just like smart prison wardens WANT missionaries inside, to convert all the atheists (who all claim to love Jesus to the parole board) to actually LOVE Jesus. WINNING!
So you broke the law with the aid of others. Nice to know. Tell me, how can you lead kids to be law abiding citizens by breaking the law?
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
The big problem in my mind is that in the USA "religion" is not allowed to be taught in school,
but the growing SECULAR RELIGION can grow all it likes.
Cultural Marxism, existentialism, post-modernism and the like are the new religions of our
age. It's just... they aint defined as religions. And technically, they are not religions, but they
fill the place of religion.
Then it's unfair to call a secular position a religious one, or use "religion" in conjunction with secularism, isn't it.

.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
PS. I led a bunch of young people to Christ IN SCHOOL while educators and administrators watched me do it, and appreciated that the little darlings were going to turn out to be lovely law-abiding citizens. WINNING!

PPS. I never duped anyone and they knew my agenda before I entered the school and wanted me there, just like smart prison wardens WANT missionaries inside, to convert all the atheists (who all claim to love Jesus to the parole board) to actually LOVE Jesus. WINNING!
Then as an American citizen, if that's what you are, you should be ashamed of yourself.

.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
In looking, all I can really find are charts showing perceptions on certain religious views growing/shrinking in prison in terms of number of adherents/converts are growing or shrinking. Such as this:
full

However, one thing to keep in mind is that self-reported atheists OUTSIDE OF PRISON (without any incentive to lie about their affiliation) only made up about 3.1% of the U.S. population at the time the study was conducted. And so, the perceptions of shifting above, is extremely unlikely to contain a large number of atheists converting, unless you argue that a huge percentage of the U.S. atheist population is simply in prison AND undergoing conversion - and at that conversion point, that being true would necessarily HUGELY affect the percentage of the U.S. that self-reported as atheist. That is to say, if a large percentage of the U.S. atheist population was imprisoned and underwent conversion, then this would drastically affect the percent of the U.S. population that is atheist, because they would no longer be atheist.
Here we get into the weeds of what constitutes a true believer. If a guy was raised in a Catholic home, but cared nothing about the faith, never went to church, never read anything related to religion, and is an active criminal, gets caught, and on his induction forms for prison says he is a Catholic, is he ? I doubt few folks like this would believe themselves atheists, though practically they are.

If the same guy, for fun, joins a Catholic study group in prison, and is truly converted, studies, takes part, goes to mass, and truly believes, he really is a Catholic.

Back in my atheist days, my first job app after college had the religion question asked ( it was legal then).

Because my family was Southern Baptist for generations, I quickly wrote Baptist without even thinking about it.

Yet I rejected Christianity, warned my family to never bring it up in my presence, basked in the warmth of macro evolution, and scoffed at believers, etc., etc.

I was a familial ,in name only , Baptist. If I had been popped for something that required a prison term, would I have entered prison as a real Baptist ?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
You brought up the wall between church and state, and I provided scenarios where you might be grateful for it.
There is no wall between Church and State, it is no where said or implied in the Constitution.

The right to freely practice ones religion, stated in the Constitution, is clear, and means any leading or directing toward a particular belief is an infringement of that, i.e. teaching in detail for the purpose of conversion by the state, or coercion by the state for the same purpose. It is an ACTIVE infringement.

In God We Trust on a coin, a coach kneeling on the field by himself to pray, Crosses, Jewish stars, or Muslim moons on graves in a state operated cemetery are totally PASSIVE. One would have to be one feeble minded atheist to think these things are a threat to your freedom from religion.

This dopey organization is responsible for the possible destruction of a WW1 memorial, put up in the 1920ś in the shape of a cross, that is on government land in Ca. I don´t know how that turned out,or if the litigation is finished.

Sheer malicious hostility for the sake of it, nothing more.

The Constitution does not legalize this kind of vindictiveness, the wall between church and state is a lie.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Here we get into the weeds of what constitutes a true believer. If a guy was raised in a Catholic home, but cared nothing about the faith, never went to church, never read anything related to religion, and is an active criminal, gets caught, and on his induction forms for prison says he is a Catholic, is he ? I doubt few folks like this would believe themselves atheists, though practically they are.

If the same guy, for fun, joins a Catholic study group in prison, and is truly converted, studies, takes part, goes to mass, and truly believes, he really is a Catholic.

Back in my atheist days, my first job app after college had the religion question asked ( it was legal then).

Because my family was Southern Baptist for generations, I quickly wrote Baptist without even thinking about it.

Yet I rejected Christianity, warned my family to never bring it up in my presence, basked in the warmth of macro evolution, and scoffed at believers, etc., etc.

I was a familial ,in name only , Baptist. If I had been popped for something that required a prison term, would I have entered prison as a real Baptist ?
You don't seem to understand that just because a person does not follow the Bible does not mean that they a are not a Christian. Christianity is about beliefs, not about actions. People can very often believe one thing and rationalize all sorts of behaviors that run contrary to that belief. We see that here every day with Christians that get snarky or dishonest when their claims are refuted. Atheists are far form perfect too, but at least they seem to realize that if they do something wrong it is up to them to make up for it. Apologizing to a make believe friend does not cut it if one is an atheist.

And I have serious doubts that you were ever an atheist. You may have lapsed a bit in your religious beliefs, but you do not seem to be able to approach the topic of religion without letting your emotions take over. Ultimately atheism is a rational belief and not an emotional one. The Bible is actually right when it says:

"Only fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!"

Oddly enough it is just as accurate to say:

"Only fools say in their hearts, “There is a God.” They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!"

Look at the work of irrational and emotional Christians such as Hovind, Ham, and Comfort. All three perfect examples of the latter.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
There is no wall between Church and State, it is no where said or implied in the Constitution.

The right to freely practice ones religion, stated in the Constitution, is clear, and means any leading or directing toward a particular belief is an infringement of that, i.e. teaching in detail for the purpose of conversion by the state, or coercion by the state for the same purpose. It is an ACTIVE infringement.

In God We Trust on a coin, a coach kneeling on the field by himself to pray, Crosses, Jewish stars, or Muslim moons on graves in a state operated cemetery are totally PASSIVE. One would have to be one feeble minded atheist to think these things are a threat to your freedom from religion.

This dopey organization is responsible for the possible destruction of a WW1 memorial, put up in the 1920ś in the shape of a cross, that is on government land in Ca. I don´t know how that turned out,or if the litigation is finished.

Sheer malicious hostility for the sake of it, nothing more.

The Constitution does not legalize this kind of vindictiveness, the wall between church and state is a lie.
You would be wrong there. It is more than implied there and it was the writer of that part of the Constitution that made that clear:

"Separation of church and state" is paraphrased from Thomas Jefferson and used by others in expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution which reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The phrase "separation between church & state" is generally traced to a January 1, 1802, letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper. Jefferson wrote,

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."[1]


Separation of church and state in the United States - Wikipedia
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Here we get into the weeds of what constitutes a true believer. If a guy was raised in a Catholic home, but cared nothing about the faith, never went to church, never read anything related to religion, and is an active criminal, gets caught, and on his induction forms for prison says he is a Catholic, is he ? I doubt few folks like this would believe themselves atheists, though practically they are.

If the same guy, for fun, joins a Catholic study group in prison, and is truly converted, studies, takes part, goes to mass, and truly believes, he really is a Catholic.

Back in my atheist days, my first job app after college had the religion question asked ( it was legal then).

Because my family was Southern Baptist for generations, I quickly wrote Baptist without even thinking about it.

Yet I rejected Christianity, warned my family to never bring it up in my presence, basked in the warmth of macro evolution, and scoffed at believers, etc., etc.

I was a familial ,in name only , Baptist. If I had been popped for something that required a prison term, would I have entered prison as a real Baptist ?
We're concerned about what people would self-identify as... not what they "might be." I can't possibly be expected to grant you some percentage of prisoners who call themselves "Protestant" as actually being atheists just because they aren't the kind of Christians you think they should be. Otherwise, we'd also have to account for some percentage of atheists who somehow don't really understand, or don't get that they are actually Christian, or Muslim. It doesn't make any sense.

But even that we can just cast aside - it is all beside the point. Here are some numbers to try and explain what I was trying to get at in the post you quoted, which should shed some light on why the direction you took the conversation is not relevant:

  • The population of the entire U.S. in 2015 was around 320,000,000
  • 3.1% of this number is 9,920,000 (estimated count of atheists in all U.S.)
  • The total number of prisoners in the U.S. in 2015 was around 1,525,000
  • 56% of that number (the total I summed up of all the self-identified "Christian" type religious prisoners in a previous post) is 854,000
  • If all 56% of those prisoners were converts from atheism (which excuses all Christianity from prisons - something you sort of seem to be trying to get to), then that would affect the number of atheists in the U.S. - taking 854,000 people out of that count. This would impact the percentage of the U.S. population that is atheist, dropping it (significantly) to [ (9,920,000 - 854,000) / 320,000,000] = 2.8%

This would be a particularly significant shift in the numbers, given the quantities we're taking about. And yet the population of the U.S. self-identifying as atheist even today is still purported to be somewhere between 3 and 4% - and possibly more based on recent views into the beliefs of the latest generations coming into adulthood.

This would be consistent with the idea that self-reported atheists tend not to go to prison. (0.1% of prisoners self-identifying as atheist)
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Abraham lied about Sarah being his sister. He was not the one who was punished for deception, but rather the decieved were punished because they acted on a lie they didn't know was a lie and wouldn't have had they known.
I reread that verse. I kind of liked it. Sarah was Abraham's sister, so no lie at all. Wonderful lessons in this Bible verse. And it all worked out fine, Abimelek had not even touched her, so Sarah was totally in the clear.

And Abimelek had to learn a lesson.
Then Abimelek King of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her. Obviously that was not nice of Abimelek to do "took her", he did not ask her permission. So "God" taught him a valuable lesson "respect women" + some extra bonus lessons.

Abimelek asked Abraham, “What was your reason for doing this?”

11 Abraham replied, “I said to myself, ‘There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife. Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife. 13 And when God had me wander I said to her, ‘This is how you can show your love to me: Everywhere we go, say of me, “He is my brother.”’
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Speaking as someone who has made numerous school presentations regarding abstinence, abortion and etc. I might need to remind you of the difference between freedom of church and state (non-constitutional) and freedom of speech, religion, expression, etc. (constitutional).

PS. I led a bunch of young people to Christ IN SCHOOL while educators and administrators watched me do it, and appreciated that the little darlings were going to turn out to be lovely law-abiding citizens. WINNING!

PPS. I never duped anyone and they knew my agenda before I entered the school and wanted me there, just like smart prison wardens WANT missionaries inside, to convert all the atheists (who all claim to love Jesus to the parole board) to actually LOVE Jesus. WINNING!

In Kentucky???
 
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