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Why Jesus Will Never Return and How the Bible Refutes Itself

sooda

Veteran Member
The Preterist perspective has a lot of merit and the argument about everything being fulfilled within that generation is certainly compelling. However it overrides a belief in an Omnipotent God who communicates through Prophets AND the Revelations from God that have come after Jesus including Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

So are you saying Jesus was wrong about saying it would be soon, before that generation passed?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So are you saying Jesus was wrong about saying it would be soon, before that generation passed?

The Jewish Temple along with Jerusalem were destroyed in 70AD as He said it would be. The signs heralding the rise of a new age and the fall of the old all took place within 40 years of His sermon.

Apocalyptic writings are never straight forward though. The language is symbolic and allegorical. Regardless it appears clear to me, Jesus is speaking of two main events, one that was fulfilled within the generation He spoke, another was to happen much latter.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The Jewish Temple along with Jerusalem were destroyed in 70AD as He said it would be. The signs heralding the rise of a new age and the fall of the old all took place within 40 years of His sermon.

Apocalyptic writings are never straight forward though. The language is symbolic and allegorical. Regardless it appears clear to me, Jesus is speaking of two main events, one that was fulfilled within the generation He spoke, another was to happen much latter.

It appears that Revelation was an existing Jewish writing that was adapted by John of Patmos.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
The Jewish Temple along with Jerusalem were destroyed in 70AD as He said it would be. The signs heralding the rise of a new age and the fall of the old all took place within 40 years of His sermon.

Apocalyptic writings are never straight forward though. The language is symbolic and allegorical. Regardless it appears clear to me, Jesus is speaking of two main events, one that was fulfilled within the generation He spoke, another was to happen much latter.
More likely though is that the author of the text lived after the destruction of the temple and could write the "prediction" into the text by putting those words into the mouth of Jesus.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
More likely though is that the author of the text lived after the destruction of the temple and could write the "prediction" into the text by putting those words into the mouth of Jesus.

Yes, most prophesy was written after the fact.


Vaticinium ex eventu. The text is written so as to appear that the prophecy had taken place before the event, when in fact it was written after the events supposedly predicted. Vaticinium ex eventu is a form of hindsight bias. The concept is similar but distinct from postdiction, where prophecies that were genuinely written or spoken before...
Vaticinium ex eventu - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaticinium_ex_eventu
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
It appears that Revelation was an existing Jewish writing that was adapted by John of Patmos.

Scholars have their theories and its always important to be able to consider the different possibilities. My understanding is the author had a genuine mystical experience. That is certainly what is conveyed by the text. What is your evidence that its a redacted version of a pre-existing text?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Scholars have their theories and its always important to be able to consider the different possibilities. My understanding is the author had a genuine mystical experience. That is certainly what is conveyed by the text. What is your evidence that its a redacted version of a pre-existing text?

Just remember that apocalyptic literature was VERY popular for about 300 years.


Revelation of John, the original Jewish version ...
historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html

The Jewish original version of Revelation (or Apocalypse) of John, much more coherent than the final one, was written very likely (in Greek) late 70 or 71 C.E. in Syrian Antioch by a temple of Jerusalem ex-priest named John.

This work offered an explanation for the holocaust of 70 C.E., with the destruction of Jerusalem & its temple, all of that at the hands of the Romans, and also a badly needed hope for the …
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
More likely though is that the author of the text lived after the destruction of the temple and could write the "prediction" into the text by putting those words into the mouth of Jesus.
If you don't believe in prophets that can predict future events, that is the only explanation. Some scholars date Mark being written as early as 66 AD before the key events described.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Just remember that apocalyptic literature was VERY popular for about 300 years.


Revelation of John, the original Jewish version ...
historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html

The Jewish original version of Revelation (or Apocalypse) of John, much more coherent than the final one, was written very likely (in Greek) late 70 or 71 C.E. in Syrian Antioch by a temple of Jerusalem ex-priest named John.

This work offered an explanation for the holocaust of 70 C.E., with the destruction of Jerusalem & its temple, all of that at the hands of the Romans, and also a badly needed hope for the …

Unfortunately no such Jewish text exists to verify this hypothesis. I agree the book of Revelation provided hope to the Christian community during a very difficult time. The book like a number of New testament works is difficult to definitively identify the actual author and to precisely date. I'm comfortable with uncertainly. The conservative Christians have their hypotheses as the liberal scholars do. With all the uncertainty it would be a mistake to ignore the merits of arguments provided by both sides of the debate.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
From Luke 6:13–16 (NIV):

When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John and Matthew were included, but the remaining two authors of the Gospel – Mark and Luke – were not. Why is this, and how did they come to know Jesus so closely as to later write his Gospel?
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Really? Please quote the scripture with the word "Rapture" in it. You can't of course because the word doesn't appear in the Bible even once.

You are twisting scripture to support your strawman so that you can easily refute it. It's a lame tactic atheist have been using for years. :rolleyes:

The rapture was conceived by a mentally ill woman in the 1800's as cited in the article in my other post. It's a relatively new idea, compared to the long history of Judeo-Christian beliefs. It might as well be straight from Satans lips as it's intended to deceive weak minded people.

Even though the word "rapture" is not used in the bible, the CONCEPT of the rapture is clearly biblical. The "rapture" is defined as "the transporting of believers to heaven at the Second Coming of Christ." Clearly, this concept is found in the Bible. I have already cited Mark 13 TWICE which clearly states Jesus was going to return and transport Christians to the clouds of heaven within the lifetime of the generation listening to him. For the third time I will point you to it again (Mark 13:24-27): "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; "the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be a shaken. "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. "And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Clearly, this is a reference to the concept of the rapture and the End of the World. Yet when we continue reading, we see it was predicted to occur within the Jesus' 12 disciples' generation's lifetime. So, the prophecy failed.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Even though the word "rapture" is not used in the bible, the CONCEPT of the rapture is clearly biblical. The "rapture" is defined as "the transporting of believers to heaven at the Second Coming of Christ." Clearly, this concept is found in the Bible. I have already cited Mark 13 TWICE which clearly states Jesus was going to return and transport Christians to the clouds of heaven within the lifetime of the generation listening to him. For the third time I will point you to it again (Mark 13:24-27): "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; "the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be a shaken. "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. "And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Clearly, this is a reference to the concept of the rapture and the End of the World. Yet when we continue reading, we see it was predicted to occur within the Jesus' 12 disciples' generation's lifetime. So, the prophecy failed.

Mark was a disciple of Peter not Jesus.

The rapture was to reassure the living..

The question is often asked, “Will we see our loved ones again?” The apostle Paul wrote these words to reassure the Thessalonians …

The Rapture: A Popular but False Doctrine | United Church ...
https://www.ucg.org/world-news-and-prophecy/the-rapture-a-popular-but-false-doctrine
Aug 01, 2008 · Both Darby and Scofield claimed that the “day of Christ” refers to the rapture and that “the day of the Lord” refers to the actual second coming several years after the rapture.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
It has always perplexed me how anyone (in their right mind that is) concludes that the prophecy is simply yet to be executed/established/come when Jesus specifically and clearly states that people who were at that gathering would not be dead before it was come to pass. Arguing against that is basically arguing against Jesus. Seriously now. How could it not be? That's clearly and unavoidably what he said, and you want to pretend he meant something else. Good luck with your stint in Lala land folks.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
The central teaching of Christianity is that of the return of Jesus and final judgment, when Jesus will supposedly return, riding on the clouds of Heaven, to gather his so-called "elect" and carry them to heaven while raining fiery judgment upon all of the non-believers, while they tremble in fear of the "son of man" along with his "heavenly father." However, the Bible itself indicates that this will never occur, since this prophecy had a very specific time-frame on it. According to the bible, Jesus was supposed to return within the lifetimes' of the people who lived at the time Jesus lived on earth. There are many passages in the new testament that explicitly predict that the final judgment, return of Christ, rapture of believers and damnation of non-believers, was going to occur within the first century. Well, it never happened. And, guess what. It's never going to happen. Here is a selection of false prophecies from the bible concerning the return of Jesus. *Note:* Some Christian apologists make the mistaken argument that Matthew 10:23 is somehow not referring to Jesus' second coming. However, I included CONTEXT of all of these passages to emphasize that Matthew 10:21 contains the same words as Mark 13:12, a passage which is clearly referring to the final judgment, indicating that Matthew 10:23 clearly does in fact refer to the final judgment. The exact symmetry of these passages is emphasized by my underlining in the passages below, indicating that they are clearly referring to the same event.

Furthermore, some Christian apologists also mistakenly argue that the "this generation" referred to in Mark 13 is not a reference to a literal generation. However, given that Matthew 10 describes the same Armageddon events alluded to in Mark 13, and given that Matthew 10 predicts that these events will occur within the disciples' lifetimes, indeed, before they finish going through the towns of Israel we can be sure that the generation referred to in Mark 13 is the generation alive at Jesus' time. In this way, when taken in context these two Scriptures clearly confirm each other to be false. But since this obviously erroneous prophecy is repeated so many times in the New Testament, I included two other occurences as well.

Matthew 16:27-28:
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”


Matthew 10:21-23:
“Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 13:12-30:
Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

“When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that this will not take place in winter, because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.


“If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.


“But in those days, following that distress,

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’"


At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.


“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door.Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

.

Matthew 26:63-64:

But Jesus remained silent.

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”


“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

So, after our analysis, it is clear that the second coming of Jesus and final judgment were erroneously predicted by the bible to occur within the lifetimes of the people who lived at the time of Jesus. Thus, there is no reason to believe that they will ever occur.

1) Is this teaching from the Book of Context? That's what it's out of...

2) Genera has nearly a dozen meanings, only one of which can mean "generation"--Jesus is promising Jewish people will be there when He returns to Israel and LOOK AT ALL THE JEWISH PEOPLE THERE NOW!

3) Peter and Paul BOTH said Jesus would return after they died, Paul says "After a long time, when the Temple has Antichrist in it, Jesus will return, not before," and LOOK, MA, NO TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM YET!
 

Audie

Veteran Member
More likely though is that the author of the text lived after the destruction of the temple and could write the "prediction" into the text by putting those words into the mouth of Jesus.

The chance that anyone memorized verbatim what "Jesus"
said is so totally improbable, that it seems generally given
to "god" to have helped out with the infallible bit.
Seems to like "Jesus" is a bit of a composite character,
mad to embody all manner of things.

I think the Christmas carol got it right with the line

"the hopes and fear of all the years are met in ye".
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It has always perplexed me how anyone (in their right mind that is) concludes that the prophecy is simply yet to be executed/established/come when Jesus specifically and clearly states that people who were at that gathering would not be dead before it was come to pass. Arguing against that is basically arguing against Jesus. Seriously now. How could it not be? That's clearly and unavoidably what he said, and you want to pretend he meant something else. Good luck with your stint in Lala land folks.

In Lala Land, where the bible-believers doth dwell, the bible
says whatever they want it to say.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
If you don't believe in prophets that can predict future events, that is the only explanation. Some scholars date Mark being written as early as 66 AD before the key events described.

One lil prob with prophecy is that it requires unending
what is one of the most profound and basic
aspects of the nature of reality, that being the relationship
between cause, and effect.

What some "scholars" seem to think is pretty weak stuff
to match against that.
 

OtherSheep

<--@ Titangel
Matthew 10:21 contains the same words as Mark 13:12

Mark wasn't a Discipled Apostle.
To base what you think about Jesus, upon the writings of some hearsayist, is wrong-headed. Jesus, in His prayer to His Father, prays for His Discipled Apostles, and says we will believe on Him by their words.
Whatever doesn't match Matthew and John is tares.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Please quote the scripture with the word "Rapture" in it. You can't of course because the word doesn't appear in the Bible even once. You are twisting scripture to support your strawman so that you can easily refute it.

It's you twisting scripture. It doesn't need to use the word rapture to describe the prophesied event currently called the rapture.

It's a lame tactic atheist have been using for years.

Except that it's your tactic here, isn't it?

Atheists don't need tactics. We simply look at the claims for Christianity, reject them for their lack of evidentiary support, and return to our lives without an utterance or other action. Christianity simply isn't relevant as an ideology to the skeptic, and needs no tactic to reject.

The rapture was conceived by a mentally ill woman in the 1800's

How does that distinguish it from multiple other ideas found in Christianity, such as three gods being one, someone surviving in the belly of a great fish or whale, a flood needing more water than is found on earth, or the alleged miracle of the sun wiggling in the sky? Are those sane ideas?

Jesus is promising Jewish people will be there when He returns to Israel and LOOK AT ALL THE JEWISH PEOPLE THERE NOW!

I'm literate in English, so like all other people able to read and understand for themselves, I can assure you that that's neither what the scriptures say nor mean. That was a failed prophecy.

I realize that by faith, you consider that impossible, but that is only relevant to you. I don't use faith to think, and don't value conclusion based in faith.
 
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