what about panentheism?

[A Maatian De'ani]

I have characterized myself as a panentheist since I first heard of the term from reading one of Christian popular writer, Matthew Fox's books in the late 80's. Panentheism, in the probably simplistic way I think of it, has been one of the main ways in which I have thought of God for at least half of my adult life. However I am not really aware of any religion which explicitly, officially characterizes itself as panentheistic. Christianity certainly does not even though many of its theologians may.

I wonder what persons here think on the subject. Are you connected to any religious communities which are explicitly panentheistic? I am curious what that means for religious practice? I am wondering what religious traditions you might think of as being panentheistic. Just curious.

Glenn

 

[Rival]

Many Jews would consider themselves panentheistic and possibly Christians and Muslims.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My main source of understanding pantheism has been Einstein, upon whom I've built many of my own views.

Many Jews would consider themselves panentheistic and possibly Christians and Muslims.

Not sure about Muslims, but you probably won't find many Christians who would. It's mostly because they take the personification and personalization of Jehovah to be overall human-like, but god instead of human, and everything of Creation to be external of him, with many claiming hell is separation from him. And from the American Evangelical, its a label that isn't Christian so it ain't gonna happen.

 

[Vinayaka]

I have characterized myself as a panentheist since I first heard of the term from reading one of Christian popular writer, Matthew Fox's books in the late 80's. Panentheism, in the probably simplistic way I think of it, has been one of the main ways in which I have thought of God for at least half of my adult life. However I am not really aware of any religion which explicitly, officially characterizes itself as panentheistic. Christianity certainly does not even though many of its theologians may.

I wonder what persons here think on the subject. Are you connected to any religious communities which are explicitly panentheistic? I am curious what that means for religious practice? I am wondering what religious traditions you might think of as being panentheistic. Just curious.

Glenn

Monistic Saiva Siddhanta (the faith I follow) is certainly close, although pantheism is also right there.

 

[George-ananda]

I wonder what persons here think on the subject.

Dictionary Definition

pan·en·the·ism

NOUN

1. the belief or doctrine that God is greater than the universe and includes and interpenetrates it

I consider myself a pantheist

pan·the·ism

NOUN

1. a doctrine which identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.

From Quora:

Difference between pantheism and panentheism
So the difference between pantheism and panentheism is that one denotes that all IS God, whereas the other denotes that all is IN God; one equates all with God, whereas the other indicates we are part of God.

Well, determining which of those two is more accurate seems way beyond most of our perception and thinking skills. Key point for me in my Advaita Vedanta beliefs is that our individual consciousness (atma) is a ray of God/Brahman (paramatma) universal consciousness. I am not a first seeing how that conflicts with panentheism.

 

[Firemorphic]

Many Jews would consider themselves panentheistic and possibly Christians and Muslims.

Yes, well PanENtheism itself is basically just a softened version of Monotheism, the two are mostly indistinguishable

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, well PanENtheism itself is basically just a softened version of Monotheism, the two are almost indistinguishable

Einstein would disagree. He was a pantheist, but very adamant he wasn't theist in the usual sense of the word and he felt belief in a personal deity to be childish. Einsteins views are heavily drawn from Spinoza.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I have characterized myself as a panentheist since I first heard of the term from reading one of Christian popular writer, Matthew Fox's books in the late 80's. Panentheism, in the probably simplistic way I think of it, has been one of the main ways in which I have thought of God for at least half of my adult life. However I am not really aware of any religion which explicitly, officially characterizes itself as panentheistic. Christianity certainly does not even though many of its theologians may.

I wonder what persons here think on the subject. Are you connected to any religious communities which are explicitly panentheistic? I am curious what that means for religious practice? I am wondering what religious traditions you might think of as being panentheistic. Just curious.

Glenn

Technically I am not a member of the Quakers, however many of them are panentheist. Somebody on line wrote a blurb about it in this blog entry:
A Basic Theology for Friends

 

[tayla]

I wonder what persons here think on the subject.

I consider myself to be panentheist, but mixed with varieties of deism, monotheism, and agnosticism.

 

[Firemorphic]

Einstein would disagree.

I don't really care about what Einstein thought on theology and metaphysics, but now you mention it, did he ever write anything particularly on the topic? or just mention it in passing?

As for your own phrasing of 'personal deity', I know that my fellow Muslims and my fellow Jewish brothers would take great offense to the notion of a 'personal deity', which is a very Pagan thing.
It thrives well in Hinduism (and it's schools of Bhakti yoga) and also in trinitarian Christian notions of their 'connection with Jesus' but the whole 'personal deity' idea is very much divorced from the Islamic and Jewish worldviews, even if you may yourself have preconceived notions of that taken from Christianity, I don't know.

 

[David T]

I have characterized myself as a panentheist since I first heard of the term from reading one of Christian popular writer, Matthew Fox's books in the late 80's. Panentheism, in the probably simplistic way I think of it, has been one of the main ways in which I have thought of God for at least half of my adult life. However I am not really aware of any religion which explicitly, officially characterizes itself as panentheistic. Christianity certainly does not even though many of its theologians may.

I wonder what persons here think on the subject. Are you connected to any religious communities which are explicitly panentheistic? I am curious what that means for religious practice? I am wondering what religious traditions you might think of as being panentheistic. Just curious.

Glenn

I think somewhere along the line instead of dividing terms into "beliefs" we may actually grow out of that .so I might say panentheistic or animism or a lot of these terms really are more related to how we experience rather than relevant to beliefs. I have a Carl Rogers quote that I thinks is healthy and it is a touchstone quote for me. I don't consider beliefs relevant at all or even healthy really , yet it seems to be the dominate reality for most.

"Experience is, for me, the highest authority. The touchstone of validity is my own experience. No other person's ideas, and none of my own ideas, are as authoritative as my experience. It is to experience that I must return again and again, to discover a closer approximation to truth as it is in the process of becoming in me. Neither the Bible nor the prophets — neither Freud nor research — neither the revelations of God nor man — can take precedence over my own direct experience. My experience is not authoritative because it is infallible. It is the basis of authority because it can always be checked in new primary ways. In this way its frequent error or fallibility is always open to correction."
Carl Rogers.

 

[BSM1]

I have characterized myself as a panentheist since I first heard of the term from reading one of Christian popular writer, Matthew Fox's books in the late 80's. Panentheism, in the probably simplistic way I think of it, has been one of the main ways in which I have thought of God for at least half of my adult life. However I am not really aware of any religion which explicitly, officially characterizes itself as panentheistic. Christianity certainly does not even though many of its theologians may.

I wonder what persons here think on the subject. Are you connected to any religious communities which are explicitly panentheistic? I am curious what that means for religious practice? I am wondering what religious traditions you might think of as being panentheistic. Just curious.

Glenn

How do you define "panentheism"? And how is this different than "pantheism"?

Many Jews would consider themselves panentheistic and possibly Christians and Muslims.

Not so sure that rings true. I believe most of them see "God" and everything else as "not God".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

did he ever write anything particularly on the topic? or just mention it in passing?

He did both. "God doesn't play with dice" was in passing, dismissing belief in a personal deity was a piece he wrote for the New York Times about the subject.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't really care about what Einstein thought on theology and metaphysics, but now you mention it, did he ever write anything particularly on the topic? or just mention it in passing?

As for your own phrasing of 'personal deity', I know that my fellow Muslims and my fellow Jewish brothers would take great offense to the notion of a 'personal deity', which is a very Pagan thing.
It thrives well in Hinduism (and it's schools of Bhakti yoga) and also in trinitarian Christian notions of their 'connection with Jesus' but the whole 'personal deity' idea is very much divorced from the Islamic and Jewish worldviews, even if you may yourself have preconceived notions of that taken from Christianity, I don't know.

The Abrahamic god is indeed a personal deity in all three Abrahamic religions. Its kind of I the name "personal," in that it is a god that is personally relatable to rather than an impersonal entity or force (laws of the universe for Einstein, the Dao for a Daoist).

 

[Firemorphic]

The Abrahamic god is indeed a personal deity in all three Abrahamic religions. Its kind of I the name "personal," in that it is a god that is personally relatable to rather than an impersonal entity or force (laws of the universe for Einstein, the Dao for a Daoist).

Yeah, I get what you mean. We do devote ourselves to IT (in the Abrahamic tradition) but IT itself, as Ultimate Reality, is as it creates/sustains. One's response to IT either becomes reciprocal or remains indifferent, if you know what I mean. It's very much in all things, yet not those things themselves.

The Dao fits into the processes of the way that things are, have been and will be but is kinda a subset of both cosmic and mundane cycles, kinda, it's definitely more a law (in the philosophical sense). Because of this, it doesn't matter whether one is a theist or atheist, the Tao is kinda a universal applicable law that appears in every religious tradition in some form or another (like yin/yang too) and many other spiritual philosophies.

 

[Marcion]

I am wondering what religious traditions you might think of as being panentheistic. Just curious.

Ananda Marga is of course not a religion, merely a Tantra-Yoga mission, but it's spiritual philosophy is explicitly pantheistic. But that does not mean that you cannot at the same time have a personal relationship with the all-present Deity via the Guru or Master. You just have to realize that the only real Guru is the Supreme Consciousness (God) and not the form or body of the Guru.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yeah, I get what you mean. We do devote ourselves to IT (in the Abrahamic tradition) but IT itself, as Ultimate Reality, is as it creates/sustains. One's response to IT either becomes reciprocal or remains indifferent, if you know what I mean. It's very much in all things, yet not those things themselves.

The Dao fits into the processes of the way that things are, have been and will be but is kinda a subset of both cosmic and mundane cycles, kinda, it's definitely more a law (in the philosophical sense). Because of this, it doesn't matter whether one is a theist or atheist, the Tao is kinda a universal applicable law that appears in every religious tradition in some form or another (like yin/yang too) and many other spiritual philosophies.

I used Tao as an example, because it is impersonal and utterly faceless, to contrast it with the personal deity of the Abrahamic faiths.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Hindus have a whole range of Panentheism in Vedanta, barring its two extremes, 'advaita' of Sankara and 'dvaita' of Madhva: Bhedabheda (both different and non-different), Vishishtadvaita (qualified non-dualism) , Shuddhadvaita (non-different but with a deity), Upadhika (both identity and difference to be equally real), Dvaitadvaita (God, souls and matter or the universe are considered as three equally real and co-eternal realities), Achintya Bhedabheda (Hare-Krishna sect, inconceivable difference in non-difference).
Even Advaita and Dvaita too are Panentheistic for many.
Vedanta - Wikipedia

 

[steveb1]

I have characterized myself as a panentheist since I first heard of the term from reading one of Christian popular writer, Matthew Fox's books in the late 80's. Panentheism, in the probably simplistic way I think of it, has been one of the main ways in which I have thought of God for at least half of my adult life. However I am not really aware of any religion which explicitly, officially characterizes itself as panentheistic. Christianity certainly does not even though many of its theologians may.

I wonder what persons here think on the subject. Are you connected to any religious communities which are explicitly panentheistic? I am curious what that means for religious practice? I am wondering what religious traditions you might think of as being panentheistic. Just curious.

Glenn

I came into it mainly from the late Marcus Borg, NT scholar, whom I had as a professor, and most of whose books I've read. His simple description is:

1. God is both "here" (immanent) and "more than here" (transcendent).
2. This differs from pantheism in that panENtheism says that God is _more than_ the world.
3. We can experience God because of God's immanent, "here-ness" aspect.
4. The Bible contains certain panentheistic texts.

From my personal faith/Eastern religions view as a Jodo Shinshu/Shin Buddhist, I hold to a kind of "panenDharmism" or "panenAmidism" in which Amitabha Buddha is working in all sentient beings living in the Samsaric world.

 

[BSM1]

I came into it mainly from the late Marcus Borg, NT scholar, whom I had as a professor, and most of whose books I've read. His simple description is:

1. God is both "here" (immanent) and "more than here" (transcendent).
2. This differs from pantheism in that panENtheism says that God is _more than_ the world.
3. We can experience God because of God's immanent, "here-ness" aspect.
4. The Bible contains certain panentheistic texts.

From my personal faith/Eastern religions view as a Jodo Shinshu/Shin Buddhist, I hold to a kind of "panenDharmism" or "panenAmidism" in which Amitabha Buddha is working in all sentient beings living in the Samsaric world.

I would expand #1 to also read "and not here".