Why free will is real:

[We Never Know]

The best argument for freedom of will is that we, as part of our surroundings have claim to a portion of its sum power. This idea is reinforced by empirically noting the human brain and a need to ascribe some valid function to the intelligence it permits. Free will perfectly fits the bill. Our awareness is not limited to helplessly watching!

Refutation is worthless- for it will necessarily begin with two admissions:
(1) That there was no intent to do so
(2) That it was devoid of intelligence

How did free will start to exist?

If you think it's god given but yet you will be punished if you don't choose what god wants, that really isn't free is it? It's more of a form of trying to control.

 

[We Never Know]

Science is showing we have a very limited ability to do that, if we have it at all. If our brain is doing it all before we have a conscious thought, we may have none at all. But regardless, even how we display and communicate an illness to others is something culture decides for us. People ddont will to have anxiety, and it is their culture that wills how it will manifest.

The brain and conscious thought. Don't they go hand in hand.

People don't will theirself to have ADHD either. That's a whole other story. It's odd that you use an illness as an example of not having free will.

 

[KelseyR]

Free will is consistent with neuron function. The brain expends the lion's share of its metabolic energy, pumping and exchanging sodium and potassium ions across the neuron membrane. The end result is, these ions are separated and segregated on opposite sides of the neuron membrane.

This energy intensive segregation of ions, causes a lowering of entropy at the level of these ions. In other words, left to their own devices, these segregated ions would prefer to blend and randomize. The constant ion pumping and resistance of the membrane, provides a way to lower their entropy and thereby create a lingering entropy potential at the membrane. The second law, attempts to increase this entropy, leading to neuron firing and some randomization, that is the foundation for will. Neuron firing leads to new branches and synapses.

This is not the whole story. A key component of the brain is water. Sodium and Potassium ions impact water in different ways. Sodium ions are Kosmotropic meaning they create more order in water, than water creates for itself. Potassium ions are Chaotropic, which means these ions create more chaos or disorder in water than water creates for itself. The segregation of these two ions, not only creates ion entropy potential, but it also creates an entropy potential within the water, with water entropy highest where the potassium ions accumulate. The water, which is continuous on both sides of the membrane sees an entropy gradient.

Since all these ion dynamics occur within water, and the fastest ion within water, is the hydrogen proton of water; pH affect,, the water responses to the dual entropy potential much faster than the movement of the sodium and potassium ions. Water is already making needed changes in potential before these ions slowly move, by comparison.

This semi-independent and semi-dependent motion of water and ions adds additional randomization to the increasing entropy, especially when averaged over the various local and global water potentials, created by neuron firing sequences and neurotransmitters, dissolved in water, which tweak the water potential further.

Humans have two centers of consciousness in the brain; inner self and ego. These two centers can establish an additional gradient, in the water of the brain, from which the bulk affects called human will and choice appears.

I see a lot of effort here to track down free will. It will definitely exist in the brain as some sort of interactive neural pattern, although I cannot suggest a singular region where this might take place.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The brain and conscious thought. Don't they go hand in hand.

There is also subconscious thought. And, no, they don't, as a brain can function despite an organisms lack of consciousness. The conscious needs the brain, just as many other functions and parts do, but at the minimum the brain only needs a bit of nutrients and a flow of oxygenated blood - artificially the brain wouldn't even need the rest of the body, and realistically Soviet Russian scientists did artificially keep a dog head alive after severing it from the body.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The brain and conscious thought. Don't they go hand in hand.

People don't will theirself to have ADHD either. That's a whole other story. It's odd that you use an illness as an example of not having free will.

I use it because I have Aspergers, and as far as cases of that go I'm very normal and rather unremarkable (there is even a fairly high comorbidity between that and gender dysphoria). The life I've lived, so many aspects and parts of it have already been lived. Even when I did believe in free will, my behaviors and interests it would turn out are pretty normal, to the point even my reading habits are the norm for females with Aspergers. Even the religious path I went down is nothing unique for a female Aspie (culturally aquired.Christianity, changing to Paganism, and eventually drifting to non-theism) Its hard to envision this being the product of a "free will" when so many people inadvertently and unintentionally end up acting a lot alike, especially when a mental disorder explains massive chunks of it. And then not quite a year ago I developed a mild case of bipolar 2:nos. None of that was willed, it was brought on by SSRI treatment, and for about a week a month there is no choice when it comes to sleep, feeling impulsive, itching to spend; and then its about a week of fighting off some very deeply depressive thoughts. Its not necessarily free will that has me up and moving on those days, but a full bladder or aching back from laying in bed too long. I use it because it helps demonstrates how free will is not a sound concept.

 

[We Never Know]

There is also subconscious thought. And, no, they don't, as a brain can function despite an organisms lack of consciousness. The conscious needs the brain, just as many other functions and parts do, but at the minimum the brain only needs a bit of nutrients and a flow of oxygenated blood - artificially the brain wouldn't even need the rest of the body, and realistically Soviet Russian scientists did artificially keep a dog head alive after severing it from the body.

Isn't a brain without conscious thought in a vegetative state? It may not be dead but it's useless as far as awareness, conscious thought, etc. While in a vegetative state, a person cannot speak or do things that require thought or conscious intention and they have no awareness of themselves or their environment. That's my understanding of it anyway.

 

[We Never Know]

I use it because I have Aspergers, and as far as cases of that go I'm very normal and rather unremarkable (there is even a fairly high comorbidity between that and gender dysphoria). The life I've lived, so many aspects and parts of it have already been lived. Even when I did believe in free will, my behaviors and interests it would turn out are pretty normal, to the point even my reading habits are the norm for females with Aspergers. Even the religious path I went down is nothing unique for a female Aspie (culturally aquired.Christianity, changing to Paganism, and eventually drifting to non-theism) Its hard to envision this being the product of a "free will" when so many people inadvertently and unintentionally end up acting a lot alike, especially when a mental disorder explains massive chunks of it. And then not quite a year ago I developed a mild case of bipolar 2:nos. None of that was willed, it was brought on by SSRI treatment, and for about a week a month there is no choice when it comes to sleep, feeling impulsive, itching to spend; and then its about a week of fighting off some very deeply depressive thoughts. Its not necessarily free will that has me up and moving on those days, but a full bladder or aching back from laying in bed too long. I use it because it helps demonstrates how free will is not a sound concept.

Free will is simply the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

You don't think that exists?

 

[We Never Know]

Here's an interesting article.

Human Consciousness: Where Is It From and What Is It for

Consciousness is not a process in the brain but a kind of behavior that, of course, is controlled by the brain like any other behavior.

Human Consciousness: Where Is It From and What Is It for

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If one acts because one is manipulated (specifically: deceived or coerced into doing something,) their actions are still the product of their own choices, even if their actions were based on false information or coercion.

If you do something because I lead you down a path, your choices are my choices, not yours. That's why we even have a concept for it and consider it destructive to all involved.
As for PMS, yes, the symptoms can and do compel actions. Napping from fatigue, becoming irritable from hormone fluctuations, and pain in general tends to affect us, and cramps in the belly can be miserable. And then there is OCD, which strongly compels sufferers to perform certain actions.

And, FYI, you don't know how you're going to react to a gun at your head until you've been there. I've not been there, but from what military personnel say and writeit's's not unusual for people to act in ways they didn't think possible. The brave becoming craven while the timid become heroes. None of them see it coming, and they all get caught up in the moment.

And if you're being coerced, you're being coerced. If a cop tells you to strip because he's going to have sex with you, you can technically say no, but fear is very present, there is a tremendous power discrepancy, and refusing may not be viable.

 

[ChristineM]

Free will when your penned in any environment or situation?

It's just a made-up religious term.

And no there is no such thing as free will.

I mean we're all going to die someday right? Where's the free will when it comes to death?

Yet you freely penned your opinion.

Of course there are limits and influences to free will, aging and subsequently death does not prevent you choosing either steak or chicken from the menu

 

[Skwim]

To my understanding free will is simply the ability to voluntarily choose, think, and act as we want. We all have it. It is an evolved trait not a god given gift.

Sorry, but proclamations of "truth"......Unicorns exist!......are not evidence of that "truth."

.

 

[We Never Know]

Sorry, but proclamations of "truth"......Unicorns exist!......are not evidence of that "truth."

.

Generally when you choose something do you choose it....
-because you're forced to
-because you're expected to
-because you're told to
-because you want to

Many things influence the choices we make. Some times it about sight, sound, smell, hearing, taste, feel, etc or a mixture of any of them and we use that information to make a choice.

 

[Skwim]

Generally when you choose something do you choose it....
-because you're forced to
-because you're expected to
-because you're told to
-because you want to

Many things influence the choices we make. Some times it about sight, sound, smell, hearing, taste, feel, etc or a mixture of any of them and we use that information to make a choice.

As I've pointed out many times before, *sigh* I don't buy the notion that choosing, or any of its cognates such as choice, chose, or chosen, have any meaning They all express the illusion of deciding.

.

 

[We Never Know]

As I've pointed out many times before, *sigh* I don't buy the notion that choosing, or any of its cognates such as choice, chose, or chosen, have any meaning They all express the illusion of deciding.

.

Yes I understand your stance. I don't share that same stance that it's an illusion.

 

[columbus]

Generally when you choose something do you choose it....
-because you're forced to
-because you're expected to
-because you're told to
-because you want to

Many things influence the choices we make. Some times it about sight, sound, smell, hearing, taste, feel, etc or a mixture of any of them and we use that information to make a choice.

But all these things are consciously perceived, and the things that largely drive our behavior are the subconscious things and motivations. The ones we aren't really even aware of, or at best dimly. Instinctive drives, hormones, memories so vague we can't consciously recall them, etc etc.
Free will is the illusion that our conscious mind is in charge of decisions, our volition. But free will is an illusion created by our limited perception of our motivations and drives.
Although, it is a very powerful illusion.
Tom

 

[Twilight Hue]

The question of Free Will is whether or not we chose how we respond to the material worlds and the situations we are embodied into.

It does not mean getting any ending or result you want.

So I take that free will is pretty much a state of mind.

 

[Skwim]

Yes I understand your stance. I don't share that same stance that it's an illusion.

If you understand my stance then why bother to ask about choosing as if I believed it existed?

.

 

[We Never Know]

If you understand my stance then why bother to ask about choosing as if I believed it existed?

.

Probably the same reason when I understand someone's stance of believing in god yet I have a different stance and ask them things. It's called discussion.