Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

[sojourner]

That's his opinion. It isn't surprising or significant when skeptics disagree with Christians; the sphere of agreement is where we should work from.

It’s his scholastic opinion, based on the anthropological and sociological evidence we have. That’s pretty strong evidence.

 

[We Never Know]

Because the USUAL treatment of crucifixion victims was as Crossan claims. Jesus was crucified, therefore it’s LIKELY that he was thrown to the dogs. Based on what is known about the procedure. It would have been UNLIKELY for him to have been buried. That’s Crossan’s argument, and it’s a good one.

I see. There is nothing supporting the claim but "usual treatment" claims.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I see. There is nothing supporting the claim but "usual treatment" claims.

Correct, and that puts the burden of proof upon someone that claims something extremely out of the norm occurred.

Rocks fall when dropped. If someone claimed that they had a rock that floated away in the air they burden of proof would be upon the person making that claim. Jesus, a friend of the poor that did not seem to have any wealthy supporters, all of a sudden has one pop out of nowhere after he was crucified and he makes an extraordinary request that is surprisingly granted. And there is no evidence of this besides the Gospels. Do you not see a problem with this?

 

[We Never Know]

Correct, and that puts the burden of proof upon someone that claims something extremely out of the norm occurred.

Rocks fall when dropped. If someone claimed that they had a rock that floated away in the air they burden of proof would be upon the person making that claim. Jesus, a friend of the poor that did not seem to have any wealthy supporters, all of a sudden has one pop out of nowhere after he was crucified and he makes an extraordinary request that is surprisingly granted. And there is no evidence of this besides the Gospels. Do you not see a problem with this?

Dude neither claim can be supported with anything more than stories and/or claims of claims. Either they both have the burden of proof supporting their claim or neither do.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Dude neither claim can be supported with anything more than stories and/or claims of claims. Either they both have the burden of proof supporting their claim or neither do.

No, we do have historical accounts of crucifixion. The stories only show up in the Christian side. The burden of proof has been provided by those that state that Jesus was almost certainly not buried. Or entombed or whatever way one wants to state it. Once again, if I claim my rock floated away the burden of proof is upon me since that is out of the ordinary. The ordinary is well supported. To claim something else puts the burden of proof upon the person making the out of the ordinary claim.

 

[We Never Know]

No, we do have historical accounts of crucifixion. The stories only show up in the Christian side. The burden of proof has been provided by those that state that Jesus was almost certainly not buried. Or entombed or whatever way one wants to state it. Once again, if I claim my rock floated away the burden of proof is upon me since that is out of the ordinary. The ordinary is well supported. To claim something else puts the burden of proof upon the person making the out of the ordinary claim.

Ah. So if someone makes the ordinary claim that God does exist (which is supported by stories and writings) and you disagree, I guess that puts the burden of proof upon you. Same difference in what you are trying to say.

 

[sooda]

Ah. So if someone makes the ordinary claim that God does exist (which is supported by stories and writings) and you disagree, I guess that puts the burden of proof upon you. Same difference in what you are trying to say.

You do know that the Hebrews borrowed stories from all the cultures around them to create an identity and history for themselves AFTER the Babylonian exile.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ah. So if someone makes the ordinary claim that God does exist (which is supported by stories and writings) and you disagree, I guess that puts the burden of proof upon you. Same difference in what you are trying to say.

What makes you think that is an ordinary claim?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You do know that the Hebrews borrowed stories from all the cultures around them to create an identity and history for themselves AFTER the Babylonian exile.

I do believe that he does not understand what an ordinary claim is. Going back to my rock example. I can drop a rock. You can drop a rock. Almost anyone can drop a rock and see it. When has anyone demonstrated the existence of a god?

 

[sooda]

I do believe that he does not understand what an ordinary claim is. Going back to my rock example. I can drop a rock. You can drop a rock. Almost anyone can drop a rock and see it. When has anyone demonstrated the existence of a god?

I agree that he doesn't get it at all.

 

[We Never Know]

No, we do have historical accounts of crucifixion. The stories only show up in the Christian side. The burden of proof has been provided by those that state that Jesus was almost certainly not buried. Or entombed or whatever way one wants to state it. Once again, if I claim my rock floated away the burden of proof is upon me since that is out of the ordinary. The ordinary is well supported. To claim something else puts the burden of proof upon the person making the out of the ordinary claim.

What makes you think feeding them to the dogs wss ordinary?

This essay examines the contention that Joseph of Arimathaea buried Jesus—in light of what one can know from Greco-Roman culture about the disposal of the bodies of crucified individuals. A survey of the statutes governing the burial of criminals and governing the prosecution of those accused of seditious activity indicates that provincial officials had a choice when confronted with the need to dispose of the bodies of the condemned. Greco-Roman texts show that in certain cases the bodies of the crucified were left to decompose in place. In other cases, the crucified bodies were buried.

Crucifixion and Burial* | New Testament Studies | Cambridge Core

 

[We Never Know]

I agree that he doesn't get it at all.

Feeding a crucified person to the dogs wasn't ordinary. They were left to were left to decompose in place. In other cases, the crucified bodies were buried.

I also read before that most that were left to rot in place were picked apart by birds, not dogs.

 

[Kilk1]

It’s his scholastic opinion, based on the anthropological and sociological evidence we have. That’s pretty strong evidence.

Crossan's view is one opinion that skeptical scholars have about what happened after Jesus' crucifixion, but there are other views. The scholar Géza Vermès, a skeptic of Jesus’ resurrection, wrote, "[W]hen every argument has been considered and weighed, the only conclusion acceptable to the historian must be that … the women … found to their consternation, not a body, but an empty tomb."

We could argue which position is right if you want. However, since virtually all scholars agree 1) that Jesus was crucified and 2) "that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus’s death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ" (Gerd Lüdemann [Germany's leading resurrection skeptic], What Really Happened to Jesus, pg. 80, quoted online here), will you grant these?

 

[sooda]

Feeding a crucified person to the dogs wasn't ordinary. They were left to were left to decompose in place. In other cases, the crucified bodies were buried.

I also read before that most that were left to rot in place were picked apart by birds, not dogs.

They couldn't leave bodies on the cross during the Passover.

 

[We Never Know]

They couldn't leave bodies on the cross during the Passover.

The ones that did the crucifing evidently didn't care and did what they wanted.

 

[sooda]

The ones that did the crucifing evidently didn't care and did what they wanted.

John 19:31 It was the day of Preparation, and the next day ...
https://biblehub.com/john/19-31.htm
In order that the bodies would not remain on the cross during the Sabbath, the Jews asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies removed. Berean Literal Bible Therefore the Jews, because it was the Preparation, so that bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath--for that Sabbath was a high day--asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and they might be taken away.

 

[We Never Know]

John 19:31 It was the day of Preparation, and the next day ...
https://biblehub.com/john/19-31.htm
In order that the bodies would not remain on the cross during the Sabbath, the Jews asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies removed. Berean Literal Bible Therefore the Jews, because it was the Preparation, so that bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath--for that Sabbath was a high day--asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and they might be taken away.

You should read more than the bible. According to historians, most, if not all, had their legs broken with iron pipes before they were crucified.

 

[sooda]

You should read more than the bible. According to historians, most, if not all, had their legs broken with iron pipes before they were crucified.

I'd like to read that... Do you have a source?

Dead bodies of criminals in Jerusalem were tossed into Gehenna Valley to be destroyed.

 

[We Never Know]

I'd like to read that... Do you have a source?

Dead bodies of criminals in Jerusalem were tossed into Gehenna Valley to be destroyed.

Here's one. This one doesn't mention the iron pipe. It's on the web though.

"To hasten death, the victim sometimes had his legs broken (crurifragium); the resulting compound fracture of the shin bones may have resulted in hemorrhage and fat embolisms, not to mention significant pain, causing earlier death."

https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproje...vidence-for-crucifixion-in-the-ancient-world/

 

[sooda]

Here's one. This one doesn't mention the iron pipe. It's on the web though.

"To hasten death, the victim sometimes had his legs broken (crurifragium); the resulting compound fracture of the shin bones may have resulted in hemorrhage and fat embolisms, not to mention significant pain, causing earlier death."

https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2015/12/08/this-bone-provides-the-only-skeletal-evidence-for-crucifixion-in-the-ancient-world/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQDoAEB#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2015/12/08/this-bone-provides-the-only-skeletal-evidence-for-crucifixion-in-the-ancient-world/

It doesn't say their legs were broken BEFORE they were crucified.