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Why free will is real:

KelseyR

The eternal optimist!
The best argument for freedom of will is that we, as part of our surroundings have claim to a portion of its sum power. This idea is reinforced by empirically noting the human brain and a need to ascribe some valid function to the intelligence it permits. Free will perfectly fits the bill. Our awareness is not limited to helplessly watching!

Refutation is worthless- for it will necessarily begin with two admissions:
(1) That there was no intent to do so
(2) That it was devoid of intelligence

 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Things like mental illness, hormones, upbringing, environment, and social influences clearly demonstrate free will does not exist. And our intelligence doesn't suggest free will.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Free will is consistent with neuron function. The brain expends the lion's share of its metabolic energy, pumping and exchanging sodium and potassium ions across the neuron membrane. The end result is, these ions are separated and segregated on opposite sides of the neuron membrane.

This energy intensive segregation of ions, causes a lowering of entropy at the level of these ions. In other words, left to their own devices, these segregated ions would prefer to blend and randomize. The constant ion pumping and resistance of the membrane, provides a way to lower their entropy and thereby create a lingering entropy potential at the membrane. The second law, attempts to increase this entropy, leading to neuron firing and some randomization, that is the foundation for will. Neuron firing leads to new branches and synapses.

This is not the whole story. A key component of the brain is water. Sodium and Potassium ions impact water in different ways. Sodium ions are Kosmotropic meaning they create more order in water, than water creates for itself. Potassium ions are Chaotropic, which means these ions create more chaos or disorder in water than water creates for itself. The segregation of these two ions, not only creates ion entropy potential, but it also creates an entropy potential within the water, with water entropy highest where the potassium ions accumulate. The water, which is continuous on both sides of the membrane sees an entropy gradient.

Since all these ion dynamics occur within water, and the fastest ion within water, is the hydrogen proton of water; pH affect,, the water responses to the dual entropy potential much faster than the movement of the sodium and potassium ions. Water is already making needed changes in potential before these ions slowly move, by comparison.

This semi-independent and semi-dependent motion of water and ions adds additional randomization to the increasing entropy, especially when averaged over the various local and global water potentials, created by neuron firing sequences and neurotransmitters, dissolved in water, which tweak the water potential further.

Humans have two centers of consciousness in the brain; inner self and ego. These two centers can establish an additional gradient, in the water of the brain, from which the bulk affects called human will and choice appears.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I disagree.
Free will cannot obviously be the sole determining factor in human behavior (like Sartre considers) but the existence of mental illness and hormones do not render free will an impossibility. Upbringing and environment and social influences influence how someone develops but does not have any impact on whether or not free will exists.
Mental illness means you have a certain range of symptoms regardless. Tell a woman who is PMSing that hormones do not render free will impossible. And upbringing and environment effect us from cradle to grave in ways we do not choose, not do we choose how the experiences mold us. No one freely chooses to be a serial killer: genetic outcome and a highly abusive childhood seem to be what makes it possible.
 

KelseyR

The eternal optimist!
Things like mental illness, hormones, upbringing, environment, and social influences clearly demonstrate free will does not exist. And our intelligence doesn't suggest free will.

So you didn't really decide to reply to this post? Your fingers just somehow moved across the keypad and words appeared without any intelligence behind them? Are you unable to see how ridiculous that sounds?
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
I think this is a strong case for Free Will by Michio Kaku.

While I admire Kaku as a theoretical physicist, he's way out of his field here. What he says is simply wrong-headed, to be polite, and is no case for free will.

Determinism does not stand or fall on what we know. Nor does free will stand on our inability to know: Kaku's working premise.

He says: "There's uncertainty. We don't know where the next electron is." Just because we can't be certain of where an electron may be does not in any way mean that its particular position was uncaused. Our inability to know something has absolutely nothing to do with the reality of that something. This is a red herring, although I'm sure Kaku didn't mean it to be.

He also says, "It means that in some sense we do have some kind of free will. No one can determine your future event given your past history. There's always the wild card There' always the possibility of uncertainty of what we do." And again, our inability to figure out X does not mean X doesn't exist.

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osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
While I admire Kaku as a theoretical physicist, he's way out of his field here. What he says is simply wrong-headed, to be polite, and is no case for free will.

Determinism does not stand or fall on what we know. Nor does free will stand on our inability to know: Kaku's working premise.

He says: "There's uncertainty. We don't know where the next electron is." Just because we can't be certain of where an electron may be does not in any way mean that its particular position was uncaused. Our inability to know something has absolutely nothing to do with the reality of that something. This is a red herring, although I'm sure Kaku didn't mean it to be.

He also says, "It means that in some sense we do have some kind of free will. No one can determine your future event given your past history. There's always the wild card There' always the possibility of uncertainty of what we do." And again, our inability to figure out X does not mean X doesn't exist.

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Nor does it imply that X does exist. It would remain unknown.

But you are saying there is cause to reason to believe that there is no free will.

I have had things challenge my will, but my restraint was stronger than my desire. You might be saying that everybody has a popping point where there is no restraint.
But my resolve runs deep. And you are only as good as your strongest motive.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The best argument for freedom of will is that we, as part of our surroundings have claim to a portion of its sum power. This idea is reinforced by empirically noting the human brain and a need to ascribe some valid function to the intelligence it permits. Free will perfectly fits the bill. Our awareness is not limited to helplessly watching!

Refutation is not permitted- for it would necessarily begin with two admissions:
(1) That there was no intent to do so
(2) That it was devoid of intelligence

Free will when your penned in any environment or situation?

It's just a made-up religious term.

And no there is no such thing as free will.

I mean we're all going to die someday right? Where's the free will when it comes to death?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Of course, symptoms aren't determined by will.
which means someone who is manic is not willing their thought process. It means autistic people do not will themselves to be introverted. Schizophrenics do not will their delusions.

I also know many cis-women who believe in free will; so there's that.
So? The behavioral and cognitive effects of pms are brought on by hormones, not will.
They alter the material and mental framing she makes the choice within, but PMS symptoms, like depression or one's upbringing, do not render free will impossible.
Altering the mental framing does mean things are going in that arent willed.
When I'm medicated for my ADHD for example, my attention and ability to focus on one thing are higher than when I am not medicated. This allows me to be more productive in many activities.
Which is brought from meds, not will power, which has been discarded as an approach for treating everything that used to be approached with it.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Subconscious brain activity also corrodes the idea of free will, and it does seem our brain chooses before we have a conscious thought.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
So you didn't really decide to reply to this post? Your fingers just somehow moved across the keypad and words appeared without any intelligence behind them? Are you unable to see how ridiculous that sounds?
Are you able to see how ridiculous your own post looks? Without any intelligence? A message was communicated, you understood, intelligence was involved. Free will as its commonly believed to exist does not exist. Psychology, sociology, anthropology, and more recently neuropsychology and neurosciences in general, are making it very clear that if we do actually get to make a decision, by the time we get to make it there isn't much room left for our own thoughts. It seems that once we realize how severely we fool ourselves into believing free will, the more easily we can identify external factors that influence us. But do we choose, or do we only have the illusion of choice? I can't say with 100% certainty.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Manipulation is another good example. The manipulated thinks they are following their own will, but in reality they follow the will of the manipulator. We live lives that are constantly bombarding us with attempts to manipulate us.
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
The best argument for freedom of will is that we, as part of our surroundings have claim to a portion of its sum power. This idea is reinforced by empirically noting the human brain and a need to ascribe some valid function to the intelligence it permits. Free will perfectly fits the bill. Our awareness is not limited to helplessly watching!

Refutation is worthless- for it will necessarily begin with two admissions:
(1) That there was no intent to do so
(2) That it was devoid of intelligence


Lack of free will does not imply lack of intent or intelligence. What most deniers of free will would assert is that the intent and the intelligence are accountable in some way and trace back to causes that the agent has no control of.

Behavior is either accountable or it is not.

If it is accountable then it is not free -- there are causes and conditions underlying it.

If it is not accountable then it would have no relationship to our desires or reason and would also not be free.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Are you able to see how ridiculous your own post looks? Without any intelligence? A message was communicated, you understood, intelligence was involved. Free will as its commonly believed to exist does not exist. Psychology, sociology, anthropology, and more recently neuropsychology and neurosciences in general, are making it very clear that if we do actually get to make a decision, by the time we get to make it there isn't much room left for our own thoughts. It seems that once we realize how severely we fool ourselves into believing free will, the more easily we can identify external factors that influence us. But do we choose, or do we only have the illusion of choice? I can't say with 100% certainty.


"Free will as its commonly believed to exist does not exist. "

How is it commonly believed?

To my understanding free will is simply the ability to voluntarily choose, think, and act as we want. We all have it. It is an evolved trait not a god given gift.
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
So you didn't really decide to reply to this post? Your fingers just somehow moved across the keypad and words appeared without any intelligence behind them? Are you unable to see how ridiculous that sounds?
Responding to the post and typing words are acts of volition, but is that volition the product of free will?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
To my understanding free will is simply the ability to voluntarily choose, think, and act as we want. We all have it. It is an evolved trait not a god given gift.
Science is showing we have a very limited ability to do that, if we have it at all. If our brain is doing it all before we have a conscious thought, we may have none at all. But regardless, even how we display and communicate an illness to others is something culture decides for us. People ddont will to have anxiety, and it is their culture that wills how it will manifest.
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
The best argument for freedom of will is that we, as part of our surroundings have claim to a portion of its sum power. This idea is reinforced by empirically noting the human brain and a need to ascribe some valid function to the intelligence it permits. Free will perfectly fits the bill. Our awareness is not limited to helplessly watching!

Refutation is worthless- for it will necessarily begin with two admissions:
(1) That there was no intent to do so
(2) That it was devoid of intelligence

I have some issues in trying to understand this argument. What is the power in reference? Is this referring to emergent properties? How does free will exist in the context of genetic determinants and environmental constraints? Can we have free will in a determined universe?
 
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