Lies and Phony Caricatures of Christianity

[usfan]

As requested by a poster, i am listing a set of what i perceive to be caricatures and phony narratives about Christianity.

This assumes a specific, exact, historical definition of Christianity, as defined by the Founder.

1. Christians hate science.
2. Christianity is responsible for all wars, exploitation, and oppression.
3. Christianity is the same as islam, but not as peaceful.
4. Muslims would love us, and live in harmony, if they weren't triggered by the hateful Christians.
5. American Christians want a theocracy.
6. American Christians want to ban all books but the bible.
7. The bible is the source of all hate and oppression in the world.
8. Christians want to force everyone to believe, and go to church.
9. Christians hate atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, muslims, Hindus, and any who do not believe as they do.
10. America was founded by irreligious skeptics, who saw the evil of Christianity and tried to keep them from meddling in the lives of others.
11. Christians want to control and manipulate everyone.
12. Christians cannot reason or follow science, as they are blinded by their superstitions.
13. The bible is full of errors.
14. The bible has changed many times.
15. Hitler was a Christian.
16. Christianity is an opiate for humanity, squashing free expression.

There are more, and i am sure the helpful posters here will chime in with additional false narratives. We can debate the merits of each charge, to see if there is any validity, or if they are bigoted smears, from a competing ideology.

I look forward to a civil and informative discussion.

 

[Left Coast]

As requested by a poster, i am listing a set of what i perceive to be caricatures and phony narratives about Christianity.

This assumes a specific, exact, historical definition of Christianity, as defined by the Founder.

1. Christians hate science.
2. Christianity is responsible for all wars, exploitation, and oppression.
3. Christianity is the same as islam, but not as peaceful.
4. Muslims would love us, and live in harmony, if they weren't triggered by the hateful Christians.
5. American Christians want a theocracy.
6. American Christians want to ban all books but the bible.
7. The bible is the source of all hate and oppression in the world.
8. Christians want to force everyone to believe, and go to church.
9. Christians hate atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, muslims, Hindus, and any who do not believe as they do.
10. America was founded by irreligious skeptics, who saw the evil of Christianity and tried to keep them from meddling in the lives of others.
11. Christians want to control and manipulate everyone.
12. Christians cannot reason or follow science, as they are blinded by their superstitions.
13. The bible is full of errors.
14. The bible has changed many times.
15. Hitler was a Christian.
16. Christianity is an opiate for humanity, squashing free expression.

There are more, and i am sure the helpful posters here will chime in with additional false narratives. We can debate the merits of each charge, to see if there is any validity, or if they are bigoted smears, from a competing ideology.

I look forward to a civil and informative discussion.

You didn't do what I asked! I asked you to reply to "caricatures" and "false narratives" that people actually said in that thread, not things you made up.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

You didn't do what I asked! I asked you to reply to "caricatures" and "false narratives" that people actually said in that thread, not things you made up.

Yeah, I mean, why not tell us in this new thread what you saw that was so bad.

 

[usfan]

You didn't do what I asked! I asked you to reply to "caricatures" and "false narratives" that people actually said in that thread, not things you made up.

These are common accusations, in the public discourse. I've heard them all, multiple times. The question is not blaming WHO said them, or started it, but the validity (or not) of the accusations.

Documenting those who use any of these narratives is not really helpful. Dissecting them, for discovery of truth, is.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

These are common accusations, in the public discourse. I've heard them all, multiple times. The question is not blaming WHO said them, or started it, but the validity (or not) of the accusations.

Documenting those who use any of these narratives is not really helpful. Dissecting them, for discovery of truth, is.

Yeah but, there was a thread, and you kind of jumped in and accused people of caricatures, to which I responded a little sarcastically with a gif. Surely you must have saw something specific and are not just going on rants?

 

[Left Coast]

As requested by a poster, i am listing a set of what i perceive to be caricatures and phony narratives about Christianity.

This assumes a specific, exact, historical definition of Christianity, as defined by the Founder.

What specific, exact definition is that? Have you spoken to the founder to glean this information?

1. Christians hate science.

Some do, not all. More typically, they are just ignorant of it, which is not unique to them.

2. Christianity is responsible for all wars, exploitation, and oppression.

Who has said this? Christians are responsible for some of this, not all.

3. Christianity is the same as islam, but not as peaceful.

Again, who has actually said this? Christianity is similar to Islam, but not the same. The peacefulness of each religion depends on who's interpreting it.

4. Muslims would love us, and live in harmony, if they weren't triggered by the hateful Christians.

I don't know who "us" is in this statement. Muslims already do live peacefully in many parts of the world, including alongside Christians.

5. American Christians want a theocracy.

Some of them do, not all. See: Dominionism.

6. American Christians want to ban all books but the bible.

Again, who has actually said this?

7. The bible is the source of all hate and oppression in the world.

Again, who has actually said this?

8. Christians want to force everyone to believe, and go to church.

They used to. Thanks to the secularization of society, they don't really have an appetite for that anymore, society enjoys religious freedom and pluralism too much now that we've tasted it.

9. Christians hate atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, muslims, Hindus, and any who do not believe as they do.

Some of them do. I dont think most do, however.

10. America was founded by irreligious skeptics, who saw the evil of Christianity and tried to keep them from meddling in the lives of others.

America was founded by a variety of folks who didn't all agree with each other. Quite a few of them were nominally religious and deist types who appreciated the moral values in Christianity but saw the supernatural stuff as silly. The Right has often inflated the degree of religiosity of the Founders, up to and including inventing fake quotes from whole cloth.

11. Christians want to control and manipulate everyone.

Again, who said this? I think some of them do, but not all. Not unique to Christians at all.

12. Christians cannot reason or follow science, as they are blinded by their superstitions.

Some are, not all.

13. The bible is full of errors.

Jesus, took until #13 to actually get to a realistic criticism. The Bible is full of errors both internal and external, but that would require a whole thread of its own, probably even more than one.

14. The bible has changed many times.

This is also true, as we've literally discovered manuscripts that have been altered, intentionally and unintentionally, by scribes who copied them. We dont have the originals of any of the Biblical texts, so it's impossible to know exactly how much they've been changed over time, we can only compare copies to other copies.

15. Hitler was a Christian.

He was baptized a Christian as a child, and happily used Christian rhetoric to consolidate public support from German Christians. Privately it seems like he was into New Agey pagan stuff.

16. Christianity is an opiate for humanity, squashing free expression.

I'm not sure exactly what this means - again, who said this? Marx said religion is the opiate of the masses, but he didn't single out Christianity.

 

[usfan]

Yeah but, there was a thread, and you kind of jumped in and accused people of caricatures, to which I responded a little sarcastically with a gif. Surely you must have saw something specific and are not just going on rants?

This is another thread, with another topic. It can be discussed, ignored, or reviled, like any thread.

The specifics of what 'inspired!' a thread are really immaterial. Each topic must stand or fall on its own merits.

It is a list of perceived 'false narratives'.. if you think some or none of these have been said, that is your prerogative. But that does not invalidate other's experiences.

 

[Left Coast]

These are common accusations, in the public discourse.

Eh, no, they're really not for the most part. They're mostly strawmen that over-generalize or exaggerate what critics of Christianity have actually said.

The question is not blaming WHO said them, or started it, but the validity (or not) of the accusations.

Knocking down strawmen is a waste of time. Wouldn't you rather discuss the strongest criticisms of your worldview rather than the weakest?
This is why I asked who actually said these things, because most of my secular friends wouldn't phrase things the way you have. You're arguing against an atheist ghost.

 

[usfan]

15. Hitler was a Christian.

this is a phony narrative, to smear Christianity by association with Hitler. It is a 'reductio ad Nazium' fallacy. But he esteemed islam much more, as a warrior ideology.

You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness? ~Adolf Hitler

I can imagine people being enthusiastic about the paradise of Mohammed, but as for the insipid paradise of the Christians! In your lifetime, you used to hear the music of Richard Wagner. After your death, it will be nothing but hallelujahs, the waving of palms, children of an age for the feeding bottle, and hoary old men. The man of the isles pays homage to the forces of nature. But Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery. ~Adolf Hitler

Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers -already, you see, the world had already fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing Christianity! -then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism [Islam], that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so. ~Adolf Hitler

Good article here, and the info is widely available to any who seek truth, not just affirmation of the narrative.
Why Hitler Wished He Was Muslim

 

[usfan]

Eh, no, they're really not for the most part. They're mostly strawmen that over-generalize or exaggerate what critics of Christianity have actually said.

That's ok. This is your opinion or perspective of this list:
Strawmen
That is why we debate and discuss things, to air our perspectves.

 

[usfan]

Jesus, took until #13 to actually get to a realistic criticism. The Bible is full of errors both internal and external, but that would require a whole thread of its own, probably even more than one.

I agree that delving into evidence, and 'proofs!' of the charge is beyond the scope of this thread, but a general reply or perspective is in order.

There may be 'some' copying errors, but careful comparisons with the earliest manuscripts (some from the first century), have proved a consistent, reliable, accurate rendition of the originals.

The early church fathers quoted every passage in the new testament, and plenty from the old. There is no substantive disagreement with our current translations. All the historical manuscripts have lots of corroboration from other documents. The biblical manuscripts have a long history of scholarship and textual criticism by a continuous line of biblical scholars, translators, and historians.

Arguments of incredulity do not prove 'error!'

You can certainly disbelieve the accounts in the biblical canon, but the accuracy, historicity, and credibility of the manuscripts are impeccable.

 

[Left Coast]

I agree that delving into evidence, and 'proofs!' of the charge is beyond the scope of this thread, but a general reply or perspective is in order.

There may be 'some' copying errors, but careful comparisons with the earliest manuscripts (some from the first century), have proved a consistent, reliable, accurate rendition of the originals.

You have no way of knowing this, because we have never seen the originals.

Also, we have no manuscripts of the NT from the first century. Second century is the earliest you'll get, and those are extremely few and far in between. The earliest we have for most of the the NT comes from the 3rd or 4th century.

The early church fathers quoted every passage in the new testament, and plenty from the old.

The ECFs quoted lots from the NT, I don't know about "every passage."

There is no substantive disagreement with our current translations. All the historical manuscripts have lots of corroboration from other documents.

I don't know what this means. Non-Christian sources quote the NT? Or non-Christian sources confirm what the NT claims? Certainly not any of the supernatural stuff.

The biblical manuscripts have a long history of scholarship and textual criticism by a continuous line of biblical scholars, translators, and historians.

Yes they do. I suspect you're not aware of a great deal of that scholarship though. The fact that the Bible contains errors and has been changed over time is well established by mainstream Biblical scholars.

You can certainly disbelieve the accounts in the biblical canon, but the accuracy, historicity, and credibility of the manuscripts are impeccable.

You would need to actually demonstrate this to change anyone's mind here.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

This is another thread, with another topic. It can be discussed, ignored, or reviled, like any thread.

The specifics of what 'inspired!' a thread are really immaterial. Each topic must stand or fall on its own merits.

It is a list of perceived 'false narratives'.. if you think some or none of these have been said, that is your prerogative. But that does not invalidate other's experiences.

Okay. I'm opting out of this debate, as I don't perceive in my human perception that we have the same understanding of things when it applies to making arguments and what to base them on and how best to approach a given subject.

I wish I had some golden advice for you. As for me, I just plan to grow from this forum's advice and my own pursuit over time, and strengthening. RF means a lot to me. I more or less hope you find exactly what you're looking for on here too.

I look forward to maybe seeing you around the forums.

I've ended up approaching this subject to the best I could, and I'll have to try and have peace about it.

I have some pictures which cover my principles in list form, I could show them for debate purposes to make sure we all agree on them and see things eye to eye, but maybe it's better I didn't and just called it a day and did something a bit more productive.

 

[usfan]

You would need to actually demonstrate this to change anyone's mind here.

I am. that is why i put it in this list. But 'changing minds!'? !! Please don't put that burden on me. I can only present my perspective.

1. There are fragments of NT manuscripts from the first century
2. Early church fathers (like Irenaeus, 2nd century), quoted from 21 of the 27 books of the NT... extensively.
3. The canon was not compiled, 'settled', or officially recognized as a Christian consensus until the Nicean Council (4th century) but the manuscripts were all in use prior to that time.

 

[usfan]

The 2 main Greek NT compilations, the Nestle-Aland text done by the German Bible Society, and The Greek New Testament done by the United Bible Societies, are the historical standards. Extant variances are noted, for the serious scholar, and comparisons can be made.

I used the Nestle-Aland, in my studies, before the internet. Now, greater tools are available for studying the most minute detail of a passage.. really only useful for nerds or bible aficionados.

But it is a false narrative, with NO HISTORICAL or scholarly basis, that the texts we have today are 'different!' than the originals. They are not. We have extant fragments from the first century, EXTENSIVE quotes from the second century, and all of them provide the basis for, and are the source of, our current bible. Nothing has changed.. not even the false accusations.

There is an unbroken line of scholarship, historical scrutiny, archaeological discovery, and continuity for the NT bible. It is essentially identical to the one we have today, and any slight variances or even typos are noted. Christian historians and scholars took their duties very seriously, and knew they were preserving the Holy Scriptures for future generations. Nobody has changed ANYTHING, for 2 thousand years. It is distortion and false propaganda from opposing, contrary ideologies that promote these narratives.

 

[Left Coast]

1. There are fragments of NT manuscripts from the first century

Source?

2. Early church fathers (like Irenaeus, 2nd century), quoted from 21 of the 27 books of the NT... extensively.

Ah, I see, so now the goalpost has moved. Originally your claim was that the ECFs quoted "every passage in the new testament." Now that's been pushed back to they "quoted from 21 of the 27 books." Not the entire books, just quoted from them. That's quite a difference.

How much did Irenaeus quote? Let me ask you this, how much of Irenaeus have you actually read yourself?

You're aware that most of the guys we call the ECFs lived in the 3rd century and beyond, yes?

3. The canon was not compiled, 'settled', or officially recognized as a Christian consensus until the Nicean Council (4th century) but the manuscripts were all in use prior to that time.

Yikes, friend. You really need to do some research outside of whatever apologetics websites you've been reading.

Go actually read the text of the Council of Nicaea. It's available to you online. They did not decide on the NT canon there. You will see the various edicts they passed on a variety of subjects referred to as "canons," but don't get confused, that's not a reference to the canon of Scripture.

Second, "the manuscripts were in use" is vague and meaningless. All NT manuscripts were not "in use" (if you mean, read during the liturgy/regarded as Scripture) in all places. Different Christian communities used different NT texts and passed them among each other. There was more consensus about some texts than others. Some texts that are now in the canon were widely disputed, other texts were widely accepted and used, and didn't make it into the canon.

 

[Left Coast]

PS - if you really want to get to brass tax, even if we had the original texts, it wouldn't demonstrate that anything in the texts was actually true. I can write something down today and people can preserve it for thousands of years - that doesn't make it any more or less true.

 

[shmogie]

As requested by a poster, i am listing a set of what i perceive to be caricatures and phony narratives about Christianity.

This assumes a specific, exact, historical definition of Christianity, as defined by the Founder.

1. Christians hate science.
2. Christianity is responsible for all wars, exploitation, and oppression.
3. Christianity is the same as islam, but not as peaceful.
4. Muslims would love us, and live in harmony, if they weren't triggered by the hateful Christians.
5. American Christians want a theocracy.
6. American Christians want to ban all books but the bible.
7. The bible is the source of all hate and oppression in the world.
8. Christians want to force everyone to believe, and go to church.
9. Christians hate atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, muslims, Hindus, and any who do not believe as they do.
10. America was founded by irreligious skeptics, who saw the evil of Christianity and tried to keep them from meddling in the lives of others.
11. Christians want to control and manipulate everyone.
12. Christians cannot reason or follow science, as they are blinded by their superstitions.
13. The bible is full of errors.
14. The bible has changed many times.
15. Hitler was a Christian.
16. Christianity is an opiate for humanity, squashing free expression.

There are more, and i am sure the helpful posters here will chime in with additional false narratives. We can debate the merits of each charge, to see if there is any validity, or if they are bigoted smears, from a competing ideology.

I look forward to a civil and informative discussion.

You have done a superb job in listing the litany of lies told to advance the anti Christian agenda.
Sadly, I suspect your civil discussion will not last long.
The anti Christian mindset gives itself permission to adopt incivility as acceptable in conversing with us.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As requested by a poster, i am listing a set of what i perceive to be caricatures and phony narratives about Christianity.

This assumes a specific, exact, historical definition of Christianity, as defined by the Founder.

1. Christians hate science.
2. Christianity is responsible for all wars, exploitation, and oppression.
3. Christianity is the same as islam, but not as peaceful.
4. Muslims would love us, and live in harmony, if they weren't triggered by the hateful Christians.
5. American Christians want a theocracy.
6. American Christians want to ban all books but the bible.
7. The bible is the source of all hate and oppression in the world.
8. Christians want to force everyone to believe, and go to church.
9. Christians hate atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, muslims, Hindus, and any who do not believe as they do.
10. America was founded by irreligious skeptics, who saw the evil of Christianity and tried to keep them from meddling in the lives of others.
11. Christians want to control and manipulate everyone.
12. Christians cannot reason or follow science, as they are blinded by their superstitions.
13. The bible is full of errors.
14. The bible has changed many times.
15. Hitler was a Christian.
16. Christianity is an opiate for humanity, squashing free expression.

There are more, and I am sure the helpful posters here will chime in with additional false narratives. We can debate the merits of each charge, to see if there is any validity, or if they are bigoted smears, from a competing ideology.

I look forward to a civil and informative discussion.

Reads more like a caricature of an atheist and the things mostly Evangelicals want to believe atheists believe and advocate for.

 

[viole]

As requested by a poster, i am listing a set of what i perceive to be caricatures and phony narratives about Christianity.

Here is my take.

1. Christians hate science.

No. But they should if they were coherent.

2. Christianity is responsible for all wars, exploitation, and oppression.

Of course not. Example: the Roman wars.

3. Christianity is the same as islam, but not as peaceful.

Not true. Anymore.

4. Muslims would love us, and live in harmony, if they weren't triggered by the hateful Christians.

Not true.

5. American Christians want a theocracy.

Maybe some.

6. American Christians want to ban all books but the bible.

Not true. Example: the books of the banana man.

7. The bible is the source of all hate and oppression in the world.

Of course not. Example Pol Pot.

8. Christians want to force everyone to believe, and go to church.

No. But they should if they really believed what they say and they were moral.

9. Christians hate atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, muslims, Hindus, and any who do not believe as they do.

Of course not. They love us.

10. America was founded by irreligious skeptics, who saw the evil of Christianity and tried to keep them from meddling in the lives of others.

Partly agree.

11. Christians want to control and manipulate everyone.

I doubt it.

12. Christians cannot reason or follow science, as they are blinded by their superstitions.

Many do. they just follow the science that does not contradict their bronze age book, for some reason.

13. The bible is full of errors.

That is quite obvious.

14. The bible has changed many times.

Unfortunately not.

15. Hitler was a Christian.

I doubt it.

16. Christianity is an opiate for humanity, squashing free expression.

The former is true, the latter less so. But not much less in some cases.

Ciao

- viole