Any like-minded believers out there?

[Deeje]

Can't you see the contradiction in your own response?

No I don't, because in your haste to defend your position, you did not read my response correctly.

You go on saying that you hate archaic English, then you submit your JW translation which says the same thing as the KJV. The verse explain how man sinned and brought death into the world. Then you say it doesn't apply to the man Adam.

Sorry...what? I quoted from the NLT...NOT a JW translation at all. Ours is the NWT. OK?

"The verse explain how man sinned and brought death into the world. Then you say it doesn't apply to the man Adam".....when did I say that?

Please read responses more carefully....it appears that you read what you think I said rather than what I actually said. Sin entered into the world through the man.....not the woman. I think that is an interesting point. What if Adam had not accepted his wife's offer? What then?

No intelligent person would believe your contradictory nonsense.

They might if they actually read what I wrote...all backed up by scripture.

 

[LightofTruth]

BTW deeje, why do all you so-called Christians keep avoiding my question about how could God condemn sin in the flesh if there was no sin in the flesh of His son?

Can I get a straight answer without all hot air?

 

[LightofTruth]

No I don't, because in your haste to defend your position, you did not read my response correctly.



Sorry...what? I quoted from the NLT...NOT a JW translation at all. Ours is the NWT. OK?

"The verse explain how man sinned and brought death into the world. Then you say it doesn't apply to the man Adam".....when did I say that?

Please read responses more carefully....it appears that you read what you think I said rather than what I actually said. Sin entered into the world through the man.....not the woman. I think that is an interesting point. What if Adam had not accepted his wife's offer? What then?



They might if they actually read what I wrote...all backed up by scripture.

Hello?
You say that Adam didn't have a sinful inclination. First off, NO Scripture backs that up! blah, blah.

The Scripture say man sinned by being tempted by his own lust. That's a sinful inclination. You see, man has flesh that has desires/lusts and when those desires meet Gods command, those desires rule over the man rather than God.

You're in contradiction pal.

 

[Deeje]

Hello?
You say that Adam didn't have a sinful inclination. First off, NO Scripture backs that up! blah, blah.

Hmmmm...ruffled feathers....Try to get a grip.....OK?

What Adam had was free will, not sin in his physical body leading him to disobey his Sovereign Creator.
That is why there was no excuse for what they did, Sin did not come about because of the way God made them as free agents. They made choices in full knowledge of the consequences of their actions. Obedience was all God asked of them in return for all that he had given them. Not a big ask, was it?

The Scripture say man sinned by being tempted by his own lust. That's a sinful inclination. You see, man has flesh that has desires/lusts and when those desires meet Gods command, those desires rule over the man rather than God.

You keep missing the point....the sinful inclination did not manifest itself because it was not there in the beginning. Only when Adam and his wife stole God's property did sin enter into the world...it wasn't there to begin with. There was no sin until they committed it.

Within one generation a murderer was produced, such was the power of that sin. We have been victims of it ever since. But that is not the way humanity got its start. Humans were created perfect but with free will. They made bad choices and reaped the penalty. Jesus came to get us back what Adam took from us....offering his life to pay for of our sin.

Sin affected the human race straight away.....from the day they ate, they became aware of their naked state and they began to die physically, but were already dead spiritually in God's eyes. Kicked out of the garden as the ungrateful and rebellious children that they were....life was now going to be tough. But Adam's children would learn from his defection.

There is not one word of remorse expressed by either of them...just the resignation that God was no longer available to them as before. Sin created a barrier that prevented them from speaking to their God without the aid of a mediator. The Bible identifies this mediator as Jesus Christ. I believe that he has had this role from the beginning.

You're in contradiction pal.

Well, I'm not a 'pal' and there is no contradiction. You seem to be stuck in your own mindset just like a lot of other 'loners' who think they know a lot, but who actually understand very little about the big picture.

Do you understand that you cannot be a Christian in isolation.....you must have others who share what you believe. (1 Corinthians 1:10) You must also meet with them regularly to encourage one another. (Hebrews 10:24-25) Who are your brethren?
If you don't have any, then doesn't that put you out on a rather lonely limb?

Do you know how many members there are here on RF who think they have the answers because they have read scripture and think it means this or that? But since they are the only ones who believe those things....they try hard to gain acceptance of their beliefs with others, but end up as isolated as they came. True Christians are never isolated from other Christians....we need fellow believers, otherwise all we have is our very own religion. Is that what Jesus taught?

 

[Thief]

No, there is not.

there are two forms of life....

body

spirit

two forms of death

 

[LightofTruth]

Hmmmm...ruffled feathers....Try to get a grip.....OK?

What Adam had was free will, not sin in his physical body leading him to disobey his Sovereign Creator.
That is why there was no excuse for what they did, Sin did not come about because of the way God made them as free agents. They made choices in full knowledge of the consequences of their actions. Obedience was all God asked of them in return for all that he had given them. Not a big ask, was it?



You keep missing the point....the sinful inclination did not manifest itself because it was not there in the beginning. Only when Adam and his wife stole God's property did sin enter into the world...it wasn't there to begin with. There was no sin until they committed it.

Within one generation a murderer was produced, such was the power of that sin. We have been victims of it ever since. But that is not the way humanity got its start. Humans were created perfect but with free will. They made bad choices and reaped the penalty. Jesus came to get us back what Adam took from us....offering his life to pay for of our sin.

Sin affected the human race straight away.....from the day they ate, they became aware of their naked state and they began to die physically, but were already dead spiritually in God's eyes. Kicked out of the garden as the ungrateful and rebellious children that they were....life was now going to be tough. But Adam's children would learn from his defection.

There is not one word of remorse expressed by either of them...just the resignation that God was no longer available to them as before. Sin created a barrier that prevented them from speaking to their God without the aid of a mediator. The Bible identifies this mediator as Jesus Christ. I believe that he has had this role from the beginning.



Well, I'm not a 'pal' and there is no contradiction. You seem to be stuck in your own mindset just like a lot of other 'loners' who think they know a lot, but who actually understand very little about the big picture.

Do you understand that you cannot be a Christian in isolation.....you must have others who share what you believe. (1 Corinthians 1:10) You must also meet with them regularly to encourage one another. (Hebrews 10:24-25) Who are your brethren?
If you don't have any, then doesn't that put you out on a rather lonely limb?

Do you know how many members there are here on RF who think they have the answers because they have read scripture and think it means this or that? But since they are the only ones who believe those things....they try hard to gain acceptance of their beliefs with others, but end up as isolated as they came. True Christians are never isolated from other Christians....we need fellow believers, otherwise all we have is our very own religion. Is that what Jesus taught?

You pretend that you speak as God does but you don't. That's why your religion fails. Why not try speaking as God does?
Why put your own ideas into Scripture? Like, "free will" and "sinful inclination". And then you somehow think you are backed up by Scripture? Come on now, who do you think you're fooling? The only ones you fool are those ignorant of Scripture. Like the great majority of so-called Christianity and the JW's, and Mormons.

Adam sinned because Adam is the natural man made from dust who has flesh and blood and whose flesh is sinful. Eve desired the fruit because it was pleasant to her eyes, good for food, and desired to make her wise. That clearly shows that it was her FLESH that was made from Adam's FLESH that was enticed to take of the fruit.
Now, that is perfectly consistent with Scripture and NOT in contradiction (as you are) with what Scripture says leads man to sin and death.

 

[LightofTruth]

there are two forms of life....

body

spirit

two forms of death

The word spirit means breath, wind, mind. When the breath leaves the body the body dies and the breath which is supplied by God returns to God. The man or woman no longer exists.

 

[Deeje]

You pretend that you speak as God does but you don't. That's why your religion fails. Why not try speaking as God does?
Why put your own ideas into Scripture? Like, "free will" and "sinful inclination". And then you somehow think you are backed up by Scripture? Come on now, who do you think you're fooling? The only ones you fool are those ignorant of Scripture. Like the great majority of so-called Christianity and the JW's, and Mormons.

Adam sinned because Adam is the natural man made from dust who has flesh and blood and whose flesh is sinful. Eve desired the fruit because it was pleasant to her eyes, good for food, and desired to make her wise. That clearly shows that it was her FLESH that was made from Adam's FLESH that was enticed to take of the fruit.
Now, that is perfectly consistent with Scripture and NOT in contradiction (as you are) with what Scripture says leads man to sin and death.

If you are convinced of all of that.....then please show us all the other footstep followers of Christ who believe as you do. Where are those who speak in agreement with you? (1 Corinthians 1:10) I have eight and a half million with whom I share my beliefs and we meet regularly every week to build one another up in love (Hebrews 10:24-25) We were commanded by Jesus to "preach the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth" and make disciples (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)...which we do like no others.....so are you going to do all that single-handedly?

I don't think we are ignorant of scripture just because we disagree with your take on it.....everyone has the choice of what to believe.....but those drawn by God will never be on their own. We come to the son only if the Father invites us. (John 6:44; John 6:65)

 

[LightofTruth]

If you are convinced of all of that.....then please show us all the other footstep followers of Christ who believe as you do. Where are those who speak in agreement with you? (1 Corinthians 1:10) I have eight and a half million with whom I share my beliefs and we meet regularly every week to build one another up in love (Hebrews 10:24-25) We were commanded by Jesus to "preach the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth" and make disciples (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)...which we do like no others.....so are you going to do all that single-handedly?

I don't think we are ignorant of scripture just because we disagree with your take on it.....everyone has the choice of what to believe.....but those drawn by God will never be on their own. We come to the son only if the Father invites us. (John 6:44; John 6:65)

Why do you throw out the word "Flesh" from your teaching? That's what i'd like to know.

 

[Deeje]

Why do you throw out the word "Flesh" from your teaching? That's what i'd like to know.

I don't know why you think we did...?

Romans 7:14-25 from the NWT....please note the word "flesh".

"For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand what I am doing. For I do not practice what I wish, but I do what I hate. 16 However, if I do what I do not wish, I agree that the Law is fine. 17 But now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that resides in me. 18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells nothing good; for I have the desire to do what is fine but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good that I wish, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice. 20 If, then, I do what I do not wish, I am no longer the one carrying it out, but it is the sin dwelling in me.

21 I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law." (NWT)

Now can you tell me where you got the idea that we throw out the word "flesh"?

 

[LightofTruth]

I don't know why you think we did...?

Romans 7:14-25 from the NWT....please note the word "flesh".

"For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand what I am doing. For I do not practice what I wish, but I do what I hate. 16 However, if I do what I do not wish, I agree that the Law is fine. 17 But now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that resides in me. 18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells nothing good; for I have the desire to do what is fine but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good that I wish, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice. 20 If, then, I do what I do not wish, I am no longer the one carrying it out, but it is the sin dwelling in me.

21 I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law." (NWT)

Now can you tell me where you got the idea that we throw out the word "flesh"?

You throw out the word flesh when you speak of Adam and Jesus. Instead of saying Adam/man {same thing} had sinful flesh you say he had "free will" and not a "sinful inclination". But the fact remains, Adam/man is made of flesh, and that flesh is sinful flesh. And man sins by being drawn away and enticed by his own desires of the flesh he is made of. Your stumbling block is that you can't admit that God would create man with sinful flesh. But Paul explains that the natural man/Adam is the man who must have a change of nature in order to inherit the kingdom of God because the natural/earthy flesh is sinful. And the reason God sent his son in that same nature is so that the sin in the flesh could be condemned on the cross by the man who overcame the world and it's lust and was tempted in all points as we are yet without sin. Adam was commanded of God and he let his flesh rule over him. Jesus was commanded of God to lay down his life and did not let his flesh rule over him even though his flesh sweated blood.

 

[Thief]

The word spirit means breath, wind, mind. When the breath leaves the body the body dies and the breath which is supplied by God returns to God. The man or woman no longer exists.

I believe the condition you describe belonged to Man
BEFORE the garden event

Man was a species on Day Six
and death yielded no viable spirit

the garden event changed all of that

 

[sooda]

Can't you see the contradiction in your own response?

You go on saying that you hate archaic English, then you submit your JW translation which says the same thing as the KJV. The verse explains how man sinned and brought death into the world. Then you say it doesn't apply to the man Adam. The one who sinned and brought death into the world.
No intelligent person would believe your contradictory nonsense.

“He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.” (Lev 16:21-22)

Vocation of Forgiveness

 

[Deeje]

You throw out the word flesh when you speak of Adam and Jesus. Instead of saying Adam/man {same thing} had sinful flesh you say he had "free will" and not a "sinful inclination".

Show me where Adam is said to have had sinful inclinations before he accepted the fruit from his wife's hand?
There was no sin in humans before their disobedience. How can you not see this. Being human doesn't mean being sinful. Being a descendant of a sinful man means that we inherited his sinful condition. (Romans 5:12)

But the fact remains, Adam/man is made of flesh, and that flesh is sinful flesh. And man sins by being drawn away and enticed by his own desires of the flesh he is made of. Your stumbling block is that you can't admit that God would create man with sinful flesh.

Use your reasoning skills.....why would God make man sinful and then punish them for it? Your stumbling block is that you can't see past your own ideas. God did not make humans sinful...they did that by disobeying God's command. Sin is the cause of death.....if man had not sinned, they would never have been evicted from Eden and they never would have died. (Genesis 3:22-24) The tree of life would have kept them young and healthy and living forever in their mortal flesh.

But Paul explains that the natural man/Adam is the man who must have a change of nature in order to inherit the kingdom of God because the natural/earthy flesh is sinful.

Paul explains what humans experience post fall.....before the fall is an entirely different story. You are getting them confused.

And the reason God sent his son in that same nature is so that the sin in the flesh could be condemned on the cross by the man who overcame the world and it's lust and was tempted in all points as we are yet without sin.

Jesus had to come from heaven to pay a price to redeem the human race who were sold under sin through no fault on their part. If a sinful life could pay for a sinless one, then how does that fulfill the law. It had to be an equivalent 'life for a life'. Adam was sinless when God created him and he lost his own life because of his disobedience....but he passed sin onto his children, robbing them of a sinless life. To balance the scales, a sinless life was offered for the sinless life that we lost. One sacrifice paid the price for all of us. I have explained all this in detail already. (Matthew 20:28)

Adam was commanded of God and he let his flesh rule over him. Jesus was commanded of God to lay down his life and did not let his flesh rule over him even though his flesh sweated blood.

What? Adam was commanded NOT to eat from only one tree of the garden. To take the fruit of this tree meant certain death....he chose it of his own free will. He did not let his 'flesh' rule over him...he let his emotional attachment to his wife interfere with his choice. Satan had deliberately divided Adam's loyalties.....he made him choose between siding with his God or siding with his wife. We know it wasn't lust that caused his dilemma because they had no idea that their naked state could be sinful up to that time. The devil set him up.....just like he does with us.

Jesus had no sin to fight but because he was in every way a perfect human, but he still experienced the pain and suffering that any human would with such a cruel death. He did not waver in his mission.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You throw out the word flesh when you speak of Adam and Jesus. Instead of saying Adam/man {same thing} had sinful flesh you say he had "free will" and not a "sinful inclination". But the fact remains, Adam/man is made of flesh, and that flesh is sinful flesh. And man sins by being drawn away and enticed by his own desires of the flesh he is made of. Your stumbling block is that you can't admit that God would create man with sinful flesh. But Paul explains that the natural man/Adam is the man who must have a change of nature in order to inherit the kingdom of God because the natural/earthy flesh is sinful. And the reason God sent his son in that same nature is so that the sin in the flesh could be condemned on the cross by the man who overcame the world and it's lust and was tempted in all points as we are yet without sin. Adam was commanded of God and he let his flesh rule over him. Jesus was commanded of God to lay down his life and did not let his flesh rule over him even though his flesh sweated blood.

What do you think the "Fall of man" means? What was Adam and Eve's condition, before their fall?

They would only die, if they broke God's Law. Of course we know they did....but what if they had always been faithful to their Life-giver? They never would have died!

• Look at Revelation 21:3-4, foretelling the future: "the tent of God is with mankind, and death will be no more".

Thats the future for mankind! - Psalms 115:16