• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Anti-Racism, Privilege and Non-Racism

Audie

Veteran Member
As do I. My life has been enriched by getting to know people from different cultures. Lately, my town has had many young people from Nepal move in to attend college here. I have learned so much about their country from them. I presently have a standing invitation to visit Nepal with one of the students. If only my job would allow the time. I would love to go hiking there.

This was "before my time" but there was a man named
Randy Weaver...Randy Weaver - Wikipedia

A very improbable thing happened, which was
that I had occasion to meet him, a few years ago.

I guess he was caught up in the govt crackdown
on like aryan nation militia, or something, and
a lot of really bad things came of it, sad and unjust.

Well, for all of that, I thought he was a very nice man,
and certainly very polite to me. For what is probably the
ten thousandth time he has found himself saying it, he
told me that he had not the least problem with someone
being of whatever race! if his daughter wanted to marry
whoever, that is her business, not his. His ONLY
"racist" idea was a lot like what I think... that it is good
to have different races! And that it would be a shame
if everyone got so mixed that there was no longer
any "japanese" or "Indonesians" or "Irish" or
or or, so that wherever you go, it is the same!
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
That woman has no idea about the many and different cultures out there today.

And to pick on and blame 'whites' should be as bad as blaming any other skin colour.

She's wrong.

Is she blaming? Or recognizing a lack of attention to certain people?

One reason why an individual in one group might ignore the problems from an individual in another group is that there are so many problems out there that one has to filter out some voices and attend to others. We naturally choose what seems the most relevant or just what we most can relate to. But sometimes without considering fully the severity of the issues those voices we choose to filter out represent we de-legitimize the shared values that are being threatened. And if we see that voice not as a <insert other group here> voice but instead of a <insert shared value violated> voice, then we might get somewhere.

We are all members of a group and must take some level of responsibility for that group even if we never "signed up" for that.

I agree that a white person shouldn't have to prove they are not racist. But they should be willing to recognize the value of understanding how "color" has played and continues to play a prominent role in society in significant sometimes life-ending ways for those in the minority of power and how we must be on-guard, all of us, to avoid the development of new means for defining and discriminating against others.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Come now, I assumed I would not need to write in
that "all other things apparently equal".

But you got the idea, we assume extreme punctuality
for japanese and the opposite for native americans.

The racial-cultural stereotypes come immediately to mind,
and you know that they would average out to being
accurate.

So you are saying that the stereotypes would be verifiable as statistically significant?
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
It is ok,you got the idea. If reservation time, and
the prevalence of alcoholism v a culture of
meticulous punctuality did not exist and were not
an issue, nobody would think about it, let alone
say it is a tough one.

Ah you raise a good point...stereotypes come from somewhere.

But...

If you systematically ignore the individual due to these even statistically verifiable realities, you effectively reinforce those statistical realities and promote the very sort of systemic discrimination that would allow those statistics to change over time.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This was "before my time" but there was a man named
Randy Weaver...Randy Weaver - Wikipedia

A very improbable thing happened, which was
that I had occasion to meet him, a few years ago.

I guess he was caught up in the govt crackdown
on like aryan nation militia, or something, and
a lot of really bad things came of it, sad and unjust.

Well, for all of that, I thought he was a very nice man,
and certainly very polite to me. For what is probably the
ten thousandth time he has found himself saying it, he
told me that he had not the least problem with someone
being of whatever race! if his daughter wanted to marry
whoever, that is her business, not his. His ONLY
"racist" idea was a lot like what I think... that it is good
to have different races! And that it would be a shame
if everyone got so mixed that there was no longer
any "japanese" or "Indonesians" or "Irish" or
or or, so that wherever you go, it is the same!

You met Randy Weaver? Wow, I'm very familiar with his story. He fell i'll with the Govt. simply for wanting to be left alone. When he refused to get involved in spying on some really bad characters up in Idaho....well, you know the story. He lost family, murdered by govt. forces. Very sad. The money he was awarded is little comfort for the deaths of his family members.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Supposing you were wanting to hire for
a position that required that the person
be utterly reliable about showing up on time.

Your two applicants are someone from a local
Indian reservation, and a Japanese.


That's an interesting question. I have to ask in return: is that a 'race' question, or a 'culture' question?

Because the two are not the same thing.

I know quite a few people who have been raised on reservations...not all of them native American. I also have relatives who live in, and have raised their children in, Japan. They are not Japanese. Both groups partake of the culture they inhabit, whatever color their skin is.

As for me personally, I wouldn't figure native American/Japanese culture in the question of being to work on time; I would simply emphasize the importance of that in the job interview and let the individual responses guide my decision.

Not all Japanese are obsessive about that sort of thing, and not all native Americans ignore it, whatever the mythology says. I WOULD, however, keep in mind the two culture's view of polite behavior, especially if both are deeply ingrained in those cultures. And I would treat them as they would expect polite people to treat them.

If, that is, I knew what that was. I might not, after all...not belonging to either culture myself.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
This is a good example of how racist people think, they don't judge people on their individual merits, they judge them based on their race.

Do not confuse 'race' (i.e., skin color/eye shape/whatever) with 'culture.'
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Where do you deduce that she doesn't? Privileges exist whether you acknowledge them or not.snip to here.....

You really need to go back and look at the definition of what racism is.

yes, they do....but those who 'acknowledge' privileges that don't exist...or who point out that they are USING such privileges in pursuit of some agenda that, in part, makes them 'look better' to their audiences, are being rather blatantly racist. If I were in her position, I would no more do what she is doing than sprout wings and fly. I would have gathered a group of people who were in my same position, without looking at what their skin color was, and start talking.

And I would get that 'global platform.' Just as she claims she has one.

And I am aware of the definition of racism.

: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2a: a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
b: a political or social system founded on racism
3: racial prejudice or discrimination
(from Miriam Webster)

I think that this woman epitomizes this definition, and did so in her first statement.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
You met Randy Weaver? Wow, I'm very familiar with his story. He fell i'll with the Govt. simply for wanting to be left alone. When he refused to get involved in spying on some really bad characters up in Idaho....well, you know the story. He lost family, murdered by govt. forces. Very sad. The money he was awarded is little comfort for the deaths of his family members.

I felt really bad for him.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Just read this thread. That is the response that some of the posters have had to the video and my support of it. I'm not sure how that would be unclear.

I just dismantled that argument though. She clearly made no relationship between arguing against white supremacy and white people. Those are false dichotomies and unless you make white supremacy with white people, then perhaps YOU suffer from cognitive dissonance.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
or who point out that they are USING such privileges in pursuit of some agenda that, in part, makes them 'look better' to their audiences, are being rather blatantly racist.

But even if the above is true, it does not fit in the current understanding of racism. When we are talking about racism we are talking about the concept of the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. In addition, prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior would constitute racism. This is a basic understanding of racism.

What is not racism

Fact: Me acknowledging certain unearned benefits I have based on my ethnic group.

Fact: Me acknowledging certain unearned benefits I have based on my gender.

Fact: Me acknowledging certain unearned benefits I have based on my economic status.

I really believe you're conflating in error the idea of acknowledging individual privilege with racism.

I would have gathered a group of people who were in my same position, without looking at what their skin color was, and start talking

How do you know she hasn't? The video we all looked at was a hearing by a committee discussing the violence of white supremacists. The political affiliates such as the likes of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez wanted her voice because she is a mother that lost her daughter due to the violence of white supremacy. I don't see how this is hard for you to not understand. It isn't like this woman Ms. Susan Bro just invited herself in to demand everyone to hear her voice. I'm quite sure she was invited to speak out to give her testimony to the direct effect white supremacy has played in her life.

You people forget this is the same woman, a white woman mind you that received death threats from white supremacists for speaking out against racism. This is also the same woman that had to hide the burial location of her daughter for fear that her grave sight would be vandalized. The problem is not with Susan Bro, but its with people like you. As a black man I highly doubt you and I can sit at a table and come to an understanding of the personal experience that I've faced as a black man because just going by what I'm reading here like most conversations with unsympathetic white folks I've encountered the conversation typically shifts back to "well what about me?" This time you have a white woman like Susan Bro that is standing up there explaining how white supremacy and its effects have taken her daughter. The man, Mr. Fields meant to kill black people. His intent was to kill blacks (and frankly anyone who supported BLM) but instead he killed her daughter.

I find her testimony powerful to say the least.

I think that this woman epitomizes this definition, and did so in her first statement.

That is your opinion which is a category fallacy on your part, and no matter how much logic I can display here to show that you're wrong, your brain is wrapped tight on this false notion of racism, creating false dichotomies. Your argument has failed because using your own arguments I've demonstrated that it doesn't align to reason. I firmly believe you're playing words games by changing the definition of racism, typical of people who cannot correctly associate behavior with true terms. I believe the following CNN article has a great explanation on this:

"But some scholars who study language and race say there's another reason to avoid using those words:
Most people use them in the wrong way. They think racism is about bad people who are intentionally mean to people of other races. That's all. But some who study racism say it's more like an iceberg -- 90% of it is submerged. They say it's not just about white hoods and racial slurs. Racism is a system of advantage that's based on race. It does most of its damage below the waterline: a criminal justice system that disproportionately targets people of color; students of color who are punished at a higher rate than their white peers; mortgage lenders that discriminate against Latino and black borrowers; job-seekers with "white-sounding" names who get more callbacks than those with "black-sounding" names.

The iceberg metaphor is what Jennifer Roth-Gordon invokes when talking about racism. She's a linguistic and cultural anthropologist at the University of Arizona who teaches students about race. She tries to avoid using terms like "racist" or "racism."
She says they shift the conversation back to people obsessing over individual behavior -- whether some person said or did something racist. "When people are protesting racism with signs about love, they're playing into the game of people who want to define racism as hate," she says. "It sets this incredibly high bar for what it means to be racist: It has to be intentional. That's the top of the iceberg."

Roth-Gordon prefers using more nuanced terms, like "racial anxiety" or "racial bias." It makes people less defensive and broadens the meaning of racist It also avoids what she calls the racist "guessing game," says Roth-Gordon, who explores racism and language in her book, "Race and the Brazilian Body: Blackness, Whiteness, and Everyday Language in Rio de Janeiro." That's the game where the public obsesses over some individual getting caught committing some crude racial offense. Focus on that type of racism and you don't have to talk about the racism below the surface that many whites benefit from, she says.

"It's safe for white people to play this racist guessing game," she says. "They like the idea that there is some kind of meter or test and some kind of measure that once they start pulling up some of these other examples, they can safely say, 'I would never do that.'-CNN

Source:The polite way to call someone a racist - CNN
 

Shad

Veteran Member
How do you know she hasn't? The video we all looked at was a hearing by a committee discussing the violence of white supremacists. The political affiliates such as the likes of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez wanted her voice because she is a mother that lost her daughter due to the violence of white supremacy. I don't see how this is hard for you to not understand. It isn't like this woman Ms. Susan Bro just invited herself in to demand everyone to hear her voice. I'm quite sure she was invited to speak out to give her testimony to the direct effect white supremacy has played in her life.

This undermines the claim she has a platform because she is white as she was invited
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
This undermines the claim she has a platform because she is white as she was invited

The privilege in this context is the idea that no other mothers of color who have been through the same tragedy (or similar) has had the same opportunities as her on speaking out against white supremacy. I rarely see any Palestinian Muslim woman who has had to endure racism, to have been given a platform to speak out on her experiences not only as a Palestinian Arab, but as a Muslim at least here in the United States.

BTW she was not invited because she was white, but because she is the mother of Heather Heyer, and because Ms. Heyer is dead and cannot speak for herself, her mother is speaking on her behalf. Ms. Bro also stated that she is speaking out globally, a privilege very rarely given especially to mothers of color who lost sons and daughters to racial violence.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Come now, I assumed I would not need to write in
that "all other things apparently equal".

But you got the idea, we assume extreme punctuality
for japanese and the opposite for native americans.

The racial-cultural stereotypes come immediately to mind,
and you know that they would average out to being
accurate.

I'm not sure how accurate they are, although it's probably more a matter of individual traits. But if there is any accuracy at all to them, it may be more due to cultural conditioning and upbringing than anything biological or genetic.

As for stereotypes, at least in America, people have assumed a lot of things about the Japanese - along with other nationalities and races.

A lot of it is probably so much ignorant BS - like how some say that black people love watermelon and ribs. But a lot of white people love watermelon and ribs. I never could quite understand those kinds of stereotypes, as they never made much sense.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, certainly we see a lot of differentiation among whites regarding their European ethnicity but there is still something to be said for the existence of a more or less melted down white culture in the U.S. and maybe also in Europe (wouldn't know personally). White supremicist and nationalist groups are those who probably are most concerned with defining that. We can see how predominantly European American groups dominated politics and how Native Americans and African Americans (once they became actual citizens and other ethic groups were differentiated with respect to opportunity and social inclusivity beyond simple differences in cultural practices. It was not individual merit based discrimination but group identity based discrimination.

I have many instances to consider how "oversimplification" is a necessary evil when discussing almost any topic. It can be used as a rationalization for distancing one's self from any difficult topic. But it is also a good line of discussion (to explore the oversimplifications) for most topics.

There is an extensive wikipedia article on it...

Color terminology for race - Wikipedia

Wouldn't hurt me to read it...

I think the term "American culture" might also be applicable, since that's really what we're talking about here. Within that might be various regional and ethnic sub-cultures with varying shades of difference.

However, my impression as to how the term "white culture" relates to the OP is that we're also talking about elements of our political culture - at least inasmuch as it's relevant to this country's history of racism and white supremacy. The country and our political system were set up and structured by those who wanted to expand and grab as much land as they could - so they could develop it and make as much money as they could.

Without going into all the gory details, and even though we've reformed quite a bit politically since earlier times, the basic structure still remains, and it still has a lingering effect on the political culture. There's a certain historical legacy, and that may be what is identified when some people refer to "white privilege." I'm not sure if the verbiage used is entirely accurate in describing whatever phenomenon is at work, but it's been ingrained into the fabric of this country for hundreds of years and many generations.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I think the term "American culture" might also be applicable, since that's really what we're talking about here. Within that might be various regional and ethnic sub-cultures with varying shades of difference.

However, my impression as to how the term "white culture" relates to the OP is that we're also talking about elements of our political culture - at least inasmuch as it's relevant to this country's history of racism and white supremacy. The country and our political system were set up and structured by those who wanted to expand and grab as much land as they could - so they could develop it and make as much money as they could.

Without going into all the gory details, and even though we've reformed quite a bit politically since earlier times, the basic structure still remains, and it still has a lingering effect on the political culture. There's a certain historical legacy, and that may be what is identified when some people refer to "white privilege." I'm not sure if the verbiage used is entirely accurate in describing whatever phenomenon is at work, but it's been ingrained into the fabric of this country for hundreds of years and many generations.

Isnt that pretty much the histoty and culture of every
countty?
Nobody inhabits a land not taken by force from
those who came before, and ruled by force for
the benefit of those in control.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
The privilege in this context is the idea that no other mothers of color who have been through the same tragedy (or similar) has had the same opportunities as her on speaking out against white supremacy.

Which is pure nonsense due to the invitation.

I rarely see any Palestinian Muslim woman who has had to endure racism, to have been given a platform to speak out on her experiences not only as a Palestinian Arab, but as a Muslim at least here in the United States.

Linda Sarsour has had plenty of platforms. You are not aware or not looking.

BTW she was not invited because she was white, but because she is the mother of Heather Heyer, and because Ms. Heyer is dead and cannot speak for herself, her mother is speaking on her behalf.

Ergo she refuted herself.


Ms. Bro also stated that she is speaking out globally, a privilege very rarely given especially to mothers of color who lost sons and daughters to racial violence.

Babble as she was invited.
 
Top