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Many proofs for God's existence.

Jim

Nets of Wonder
@Link I can’t think of any useful definition of “exist” that would exclude me. By any useful definition of “exist “ that I can think of, I exist necessarily. If I use your definition of God, that makes me my God.

In fact, I can’t think of any useful definition of “exist,” that excludes any direct experience that is shared by most people. For example, I’m sitting here looking at some short fat posts that are there to keep cars from driving onto the sidewalk. Everyone that I see walking by, is walking around them. To be sure that they’re seeing what I’m seeing, I would need to ask everyone of them. If all of them are seeing those posts, then I don’t see how they could be excluded from any definition of “exist” that anyone would have any reason to care about. That would make those posts part of God by your definition. If you’re using some definition of “exist” that doesn’t necessarily include those posts, then why should anyone care if there’s anything that exists that way or not?

Apart from that, what does the existence of something that exists necessarily have to do with anything, and why should anyone care?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Leaps of belief can happen with respect to falsehood or conjecture or with proofs and insights. The latter is the praised "faith" in it's proper place, while the former is just drowning and destroying one's ability to see and reason.

Of course, not seeing is sometimes not proof of anything but just that, not seeing.

If the concept of Necessity in terms of existence can be grasped with respect to a thing, impossible not to exist in any possible world, the person grasping will definitely know that thing exists.

That is a simple way of putting it, the question is, do we know of anything like this? I argue, all humans, when reflect, will see God by definition is a Necessary being. In fact, God must be a necessary being if she/he exists can be proven in so many ways.

But it will follow, if then it can be see in fact possible any possible world, it exists and not only that, but that no possible world is possible without it.

Faith is not evidence.

Necessity is not grasped, it either is or isnt. The concept of god may be necessary to some individuals, it most certainly isnt necessary for anything else.

No god has ever been proven, in fact, throughout history gods must be the most disproved concept ever. There is much faith in gods but no proof, with proof faith is not required
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
@Link Have you ever seen or heard of your proofs of God’s existence helping someone come to a kind of belief in God, that does anyone any good?
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Hi! I have a question as I am unfamiliar with these arguments. Does the first (the ontological) argument assume God is necessary? Is that a very old argument?
It's an old argument, and it's not convincing. We can disprove it with simple examples. DVD players. It's possible they exist, because we have them. However, even though they can exist, there was a demonstrable period of history where they did NOT exist, even though it was possible they exist.
\
The other MAJOR point that ontological arguers are seemingly blind to (or willfully ignoring), if the ontological argument "proves" the existence of the Christian God, it must simultaneously "prove" the existence of all other religions' gods, and all other mythological figures too.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
@Link Is this supposed to have any relevance to the Gods of Christianity and Islam that people are debating about? If so, then, however you define “exists,” what needs to be proven is that the intersection between the set of things that exist, and the set of Christian and Muslim Gods, is not the empty set. Are we in this situation?

F70A9F7C-4566-4F89-B102-A9DD30F942EA.jpeg


or this one?

D5AE920A-103B-4756-A0FA-E091DC4E2F92.jpeg


Defining God as existing necessarily, however you define “necessarily,” only increases the difficulty of proving that the intersection is not the empty set, because it requires the set of Christian and Muslim Gods to intersect with a subset of “things that exist” which, as you say, is “hard to grasp.”
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
(1) If God can be grasped to be necessary, then it will be known to exist by the one grasping God is necessary.
(2) God can be grasped to be necessary.
Therefore God exists (the conclusion is more, but that can be derived from conclusion).

If i can grasp unicorns to be necessary then they will be known to exist to me.

Unicorns can be grasped to be necessary.

Therefore unicorns exist.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I will start with the ontological argument.

Something that is impossible to exist, cannot exist by definition and so doesn't exist.
Something that is possible to exist has two possibilities, it exists or doesn't exist.
Something that exists necessarily, cannot but exist by definition and so it exists.

Descartes argument from what I understand unlike what is taught in Academia goes something like:

There are levels of existence.
The highest level type is necessary.
God is defined to be so great or perfect and so as far as this issue goes, it would be a necessary being.
If God is properly defined to be necessary, it follows it exists in the real world.
That is we can see by merely remembering God is necessary by the concept of necessary, that it exists.

Some proofs to the above.

God is life to the absolute to the extent there can't be more possible life/existence then it (by definition).
If any life/existence is possible without God (any independent aside from God is possible) in any possible world, then God (not a Creator or lesser god is meant here, but the big absolute being) is not possible.
God is possible.
Therefore any life/existence is impossible without God.
It follows then God exists.

In fact, it's easy to see:

If God exists, he would be a necessary being.
If a necessary being exists, it would be possible for us to recognize that as an aspect or trait of it.

The predicate contention doesn't make sense:

(1) It's a red herring if true since those categories exist anyway.
(2) A dependent existence is lower then an independent or necessary existence as far existence attribute goes.

The bold is purposeful and self-explanatory.

(3) It would make necessary existence incoherent but then the same can be said about impossible to exist, and both are coherent and are directly related to the issue of existence.

If a necessary being can be conceived, it definitely has to exist.

When we think of God not only is it a candidate for necessity in definition, but it's in fact impossible any other thing exists by necessity but it.

At the end, the only faith premise is: "God is possibly conceived to be possible". If this is true, then he will be proven to exist by reflecting over what absolute existence implies.

I will be discussing more proofs.

Can't we reduce this to...if there is something then something is possible. To ask the question necessitates there is something so we substantiate through a tight circular argument that whatsoever we might choose to understand the existence of is thereby, through logic, identified as a valid question.

The problem is is that this is a form of thinking that focuses on word meaning and assumes that knowledge arises in a single mind. This assumption has the flaw that although we experience knowledge in our own minds as a private conscious act it is never true that that private conscious act occurs independently of the social development of language in that mind as a cooperative training up of vocal utterances (words) to correlate with experience-able realities (meanings, facts) in all their various sensory, intuitive and evaluative richness.

It is the same issue whenever we try to deal with "whole terms" or words which stand in for the set of all things. God, being, consciousness, universe...these words beg for circular meaning when used in logical expressions because they take on a magical quality of getting to escape, ironically, any physical, real-world consequences. They are like words that turn arguments into mobius strips where both sides are the same side and, in the end, all rational argument is equivocated.

Now I believe that rationality is useful to the extent that we can come up with reproducible understandings of finite events. Equivocation of the opposites is a mystical truth that is useful in allowing us to recognize the boundaries of our knowledge and seeing through excessive claims of rationality. Mystical truth shows us the sphexishness of rationality.

The inscrutably ordered chaos of the natural world is all around us. Our patterned simplification of this chaotic order creates the sense of a persistent being as a reality. That something more permanent than our attention span, our lives exists gives us the confidence that there is a thing we can call being that is reliable and dependent. Look at that featureless wall...surely it speaks to our immortality!

This is the basis of truth in the human mind in terms of metaphors. Meaning arises from patterned similarities derived from our experiences in our bodies of the physical world. These patterns in turn give us in the human brain to meta patterns to which we can attach words as labels. Meta-patterns loose their physicality-ness as they become more and more internal, brain patterns of recognition. Abstracted mental experience attached to a word gives us a sense of non-physical reality even as that sense is still built up upon a mountain of metaphors that all run back to our bodily, physical experience. So long as a community of "languagers" exists that will support such an abstract, linguistic reference we can individually contemplate that which seems non-physical due to the remoteness of a word's reference to that which we experience as a finite physicality.

God is a featureless wall is an apt metaphor here as is being is a featureless wall and God is being (I am).

But on a much longer scale we know that things are always in motion, always changing. There is a mystery as to where things ultimately come from, how they manage to persist and how they are finally destroyed. This is another way of approaching the mystery of being. From this view there is an infinity of action, of cause and effect, moving forward and backward in time from where we stand which seems to form up a layered reality where we see things arising out of a supportive, creative background. One can, from this perspective, argue that there are layers both above and below those that we are aware of and call our own. "What layer does God exist in?" becomes the natural question.
 
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sealchan

Well-Known Member
It's actually very simple. God unlike everything else, is a necessary being. If you can grasp that, you will automatically know it exists because it's impossible for it to not.

There is no smoke or mirrors. To some, it's very simple. To others, very complicated. It's a matter of who wants to see God and who wishes to blind themselves to the ocean of light around them.

But what are you saying God is? God is necessary. So does God exist? Or does necessity exist?
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I’m guessing that it’s a moving tautology. The definitions of all the words are dynamically customized to make all the statements true.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
@Link Did you have any aim or purpose in mind, when you started this thread? Was it to see if anyone could disprove what you’re saying? Was it just for information? Was it to try to learn something? I see from one of your posts that maybe you think that it might be a way for some people to know that God exists, if some other ways don’t work for them. Did it do that for you? Have you seen it do that for anyone else?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I will start with the ontological argument.

Something that is impossible to exist, cannot exist by definition and so doesn't exist.
Something that is possible to exist has two possibilities, it exists or doesn't exist.
Something that exists necessarily, cannot but exist by definition and so it exists.

Descartes argument from what I understand unlike what is taught in Academia goes something like:

There are levels of existence.
The highest level type is necessary.
God is defined to be so great or perfect and so as far as this issue goes, it would be a necessary being.
If God is properly defined to be necessary, it follows it exists in the real world.
That is we can see by merely remembering God is necessary by the concept of necessary, that it exists.

Some proofs to the above.

God is life to the absolute to the extent there can't be more possible life/existence then it (by definition).
If any life/existence is possible without God (any independent aside from God is possible) in any possible world, then God (not a Creator or lesser god is meant here, but the big absolute being) is not possible.
God is possible.
Therefore any life/existence is impossible without God.
It follows then God exists.

In fact, it's easy to see:

If God exists, he would be a necessary being.
If a necessary being exists, it would be possible for us to recognize that as an aspect or trait of it.

The predicate contention doesn't make sense:

(1) It's a red herring if true since those categories exist anyway.
(2) A dependent existence is lower then an independent or necessary existence as far existence attribute goes.

The bold is purposeful and self-explanatory.

(3) It would make necessary existence incoherent but then the same can be said about impossible to exist, and both are coherent and are directly related to the issue of existence.

If a necessary being can be conceived, it definitely has to exist.

When we think of God not only is it a candidate for necessity in definition, but it's in fact impossible any other thing exists by necessity but it.

At the end, the only faith premise is: "God is possibly conceived to be possible". If this is true, then he will be proven to exist by reflecting over what absolute existence implies.

I will be discussing more proofs.
This, and all your other arguments, are obviously wrong. How do I know? Because if there were any proof that God exists, everyone would believe in God. This question is one of the oldest in philosophy, has been argued ad nauseam, over the millennia, by people a lot cleverer and better informed than you and I, and has never yielded a positive answer.

Belief in God is said to require faith, precisely because it cannot be proved.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
@Link I can see that proceeding as if there such a thing as objective truth or reality, might be equivalent to proceeding as if there is a being that perfectly perceives that reality or existence, so why not think of that being as existing also?

Now it looks to me even more than before like you’re customizing the definitions of words to make your conclusions true, but that might not be possible without defining them in different ways in different arguments and conclusions.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Because if there were any proof that God exists, everyone would believe in God.

I don't believe that. I will give an example of why I don't. If Quran proved the Twelve Successors of the Prophet Authority, then all Muslims would believe in them. Yet I know 100% for certain Quran designates the Twelve Successors of the Prophet and appoints them as authorities and guides for humans.

Not only is it the case that majority don't see, but even Most Shiites are unaware of these proofs. What you said is of course true in an ideal society. A society that is sincere to the truth, researches, and acknowledges the truth and proofs when known.

That s not the state of humans however.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@Link I can see that proceeding as if there such a thing as objective truth or reality, might be equivalent to proceeding as if there is a being that perfectly perceives that reality or existence, so why not think of that being as existing also?

Now it looks to me even more than before like you’re customizing the definitions of words to make your conclusions true, but that might not be possible without defining them in different ways in different arguments and conclusions.

If a Necessary Living God exists, it exists whether we realize or not.

And it can't not exist and it's necessary whether we define to be or not.

All I've done is reminded that we can in fact remember God is Necessary. It's not about cheating him to existence, just remembering and seeing.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
ARGUMENT FROM INFINITE REGRESS
a.k.a. FIRST CAUSE ARGUMENT (II)
(1) Ask atheists what caused the Big Bang.
(2) Regardless of their answer, ask how they know this.
(3) Continue process until the atheist admits he doesn't know the answer to one of your questions.
(4) You win!
(5) Therefore, God exists.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Something that is impossible to exist, cannot exist by definition and so doesn't exist.
Something that is possible to exist has two possibilities, it exists or doesn't exist.
Something that exists necessarily, cannot but exist by definition and so it exists.


Keeping in mind that restating someone else’s stuff is risky business, I first change the order of your initial statements, as follows:
  • Something that exists necessarily, cannot but exist by definition and so it exists.
  • Something that is impossible to exist, cannot exist by definition and so doesn't exist.
  • Something that is possible to exist has two possibilities, it exists or doesn't exist.
Then I restate those statements as:
  1. The Necessary exists. (By Definition)
  2. The Impossible does not exist. (By Definition)
  3. Either The Possible exists OR does not exist, but not both.
(To be continued)
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Another way to phrase the ontological argument, it's impossible to grasp why God must be ONE (why there can't be multiple gods) and not see it exists. The reason is because the oneness itself is a necessity that not only do other gods not exist, but it's impossible other gods exist by virtue that it's impossible the Necessary being to have an equal or something on par of it either in reality or possibility. If you see that, this grand absolute oneness will encompass the real word as well and so the world has to be dependent on it. Another way phrase this, it's just another god is not possible with God, so then the world independency is impossible. And in fact, God as in the grand G O D, is only possible if oneness of God is provable otherwise, multiple gods become possible, and the grand God is not possible in this scenario. So through possibility of Oneness of God it is known in fact he is One and Exists and is in fact Necessary.

Another way to phrase it's impossible to know why God must be one/unique IF he exists, without knowing that he actually does exist.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Descartes argument from what I understand unlike what is taught in Academia goes something like:

There are levels of existence.
The highest level type is necessary.
God is defined to be so great or perfect and so as far as this issue goes, it would be a necessary being.
If God is properly defined to be necessary, it follows it exists in the real world.
That is we can see by merely remembering God is necessary by the concept of necessary, that it exists.

(a) My question: Do you have a citation for Descartes' argument that you are restating?

(b) My restatement of "your" restatement of Descartes' argument:
  • There are levels of existence.
  • The highest level of existence is The Necessary.
  • God is perfect and, therefore, Necessary.
  • God is Necessary. therefore God exists.
What did I miss?

(To be continued)
 
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tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
God is life to the absolute to the extent there can't be more possible life/existence then it (by definition).
If any life/existence is possible without God (any independent aside from God is possible) in any possible world, then God (not a Creator or lesser god is meant here, but the big absolute being) is not possible.
God is possible.
Therefore any life/existence is impossible without God.
It follows then God exists.
This proof hinges on the possibility of God's existence. But this possibility is merely one of logic. Referring to the rules of logic doesn't prove something like the possibility of God's existence.
 
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