What Did Jesus Actually Do?

[Rival]

Did he place himself in that position? Or did people place him there? If people placed him there, what was their motive?

This is exactly what I'm driving at.

Everything was done for him.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

This is exactly what I'm driving at.

Everything was done for him.

Ok, now I see what you’re after.

Since I agree, I guess I can sign off now.

Have a good evening.

 

[David T]

From a historical standpoint, what, in his own lifetime, did Jesus of Nazareth achieve? I am having trouble figuring this out, because I can see objectively that Muhammad had a huge impact upon not only his own society but others, all within his lifetime. That the impact was either good or bad is not my point here, but that had had one. Baha'u'llah had some direct impacts, if small, upon his society. In contrast, I can't think of anything Jesus did that no-one else could have done.

He was born, he preached, he was executed.

This is probably going to turn into an 'It was all Paul not Jesus' thread, but have at it anyway.

phenomenon...

Interesting topic. Speaking of, why is parthenogenesis in his story ? That's another interesting phenomenon and topic.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Considering orthodox Judaism is somewhat exclusive anyway, in relation to that, where in biblical text does it indicate that Jesus was "racist?"

He referred to Gentiles as "dogs" and only listened to them after they groveled before him.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

He referred to Gentiles as "dogs" and only listened to them after they groveled before him.

Interesting....I'll have to look more into this.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Interesting....I'll have to look more into this.

An interesting view on it: Jesus the racist

 

[danieldemol]

From a historical standpoint, what, in his own lifetime, did Jesus of Nazareth achieve? I am having trouble figuring this out, because I can see objectively that Muhammad had a huge impact upon not only his own society but others, all within his lifetime. That the impact was either good or bad is not my point here, but that had had one. Baha'u'llah had some direct impacts, if small, upon his society. In contrast, I can't think of anything Jesus did that no-one else could have done.

He was born, he preached, he was executed.

This is probably going to turn into an 'It was all Paul not Jesus' thread, but have at it anyway.

As a liberal, I think we should start a little earlier than that.

What did Moses achieve from a historical standpoint in His own lifetime that can objectively be agreed upon by believer and non-believer alike?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I've heard several times from sources that Jesus' "The Prodigal Son" is a literary masterpiece.

Yes, a neglectful father doesn't teach his kid not to be a selfish jerk and then doesn't go looking for the little runaway. If my dog got out of the house, I'd be a complete wreck until I found her again.

and of course ….I can see myself as that wayward son
oh yeah

Sometimes I wonder if the parables are actually describing Jesus and all of his Freudian issues.

I mean, Jesus leaves his parents and goes lolly-gagging around the countryside while his siblings are irritated he's not pulling his weight in the family....

Jesus offered the idea that he could redeem their sins and they could be worthy of God. Paul exported this idea to the gentiles. It's popularity amongst the impoverist, infirm masses broke through class barriers. It gave them hope beyond their station in life.

Being poor and sick isn't a sin, though. And it's hard to say he gave them hope when he clearly doesn't do anything to change the social infrastructure to help prevent those problems in the first place. He just goes "meh, you'll always have poor people".

He renewed religion and gave it a new impetus, quickening spirit and direction which resulted in charities to help the poor, schools, orphanages, hospitals, humanitarian organisations, universities, inspired art and music for generations to come.

Most of those things were invented by pagans first.

What Jesus 'actually did' was deliver the revelation and the promise to all humanity that the spirit of God exists within all of us, and that if we will allow that divine spirit within us to guide us, and to rule us, we will be healed and saved from ourselves, and we will be able to help to heal and save others.

I think the Dharmic religions do a better job at this kind of message, though.

People should believe the Gospels.

Why? I am loyal to God, not a book.

I'm talking about Christ deniers who haven't done the proper historical research on his validity.

There are lots of problems with the evidence of Jesus. I'm not a mythicist, but we're clearly dealing with someone who got a lot of fanfics written about him.

For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

But if the self-righteous jerks were the problem, why did he not minister to them? They were the ones whose hearts needed changing, not their victims.

What was the appeal of Christianity? Folks must have saw something in it they didn't find in other beliefs at the time.

Some theists just wanted to change the channel and see what else was on.

The message of Jesus completely transcends Judaism, and even threatened it's foundations so fully that they killed him for it.

"They" didn't kill Jesus. Romans did. For being a terrorist when he attacked people with a whip at the Temple and inciting riots.

In my understanding, he went to the lowest parts of Hell and paid the price for humanity and resurrected.

Sun Wukong did that multiple times. He fought both heaven and hell, denouncing the corruption in each, and gained at least several methods of immortality. Sun Wukong is what Jesus would be if Jesus tried harder.

And then again, there were 500 witnesses

Many more than that witnessed Sun Wukong's epic coolness.

The receiving of those who were rejected. The uplifting of the position of women. The breaking of tradition for love's sake. The empowering of men beyond their wildest dreams. Healing of the sick with miracles. I guess, if I were to enumerate the things he did, there wouldn't be enough books to write them all?

Sun Wukong fought demons, healed people, fought some more demons, made friends with demons because of plot reasons (Jesus says to love our enemies but he doesn't), helped people and demons progress spiritually, fought some more demons, had powers that make Jesus look sadly underpowered, like putting Thanos up against Phil Coulson, brought sacred texts to China, became a Buddha ....

Considering orthodox Judaism is somewhat exclusive anyway, in relation to that, where in biblical text does it indicate that Jesus was "racist?"

Note that whenever non-Jews wanted his help, they had to guilt-trip him first. Jews just "asked, and received." He was shocked that gentiles could have faith, so there goes omniscience.

I mean, he flat out tells a non-Jewish woman, who he calls a dog, btw, that he only came here for Jews. Gentiles weren't even on his to-do list. He never goes out of his way to minister to them at all.

 

[Enoch07]

What did he do objectively?

He inspired millions of people to imitate His way of life. Which eventually lead to the liberal western world based on Judeo-Christian values. A western world where we get to have democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. He inspired the Christian abolitionist in the U.S. to end slavery here. He inspired Martin Luther King to become a leader and fight for his peoples rights and civil liberties. The list goes on and on. I think it's easy to objectively see what Jesus done.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Note that whenever non-Jews wanted his help, they had to guilt-trip him first. Jews just "asked, and received." He was shocked that gentiles could have faith, so there goes omniscience.

I mean, he flat out tells a non-Jewish woman, who he calls a dog, btw, that he only came here for Jews. Gentiles weren't even on his to-do list. He never goes out of his way to minister to them at all.

Interesting. The info @Saint Frankenstein provided will be a good read tonight...

 

[Shantanu]

The fresh capacity enables us to live our lives in "duties and righteous actions".

It is the connection to the Spirit of Christ that brings those actions from us. We may not know it by that name, we may call it by another name or think we are the source, but when we bring the good from within to become a reality into this world, this is the Spirit that comes from us.

It is not our light, we draw it as if from a well.

Regards Tony

Nice explanation Tony. Thanks for clarifying the thoughts behind the statement. I believe that is true of the Spirit of God: Christ is just a personality somehow mixed up with God. He seems to be the sadguru in this context who channels all the right thoughts, duties and righteous actions into the minds of adherents.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, a neglectful father doesn't teach his kid not to be a selfish jerk and then doesn't go looking for the little runaway. If my dog got out of the house, I'd be a complete wreck until I found her again.


Sometimes I wonder if the parables are actually describing Jesus and all of his Freudian issues.

I mean, Jesus leaves his parents and goes lolly-gagging around the countryside while his siblings are irritated he's not pulling his weight in the family....


Being poor and sick isn't a sin, though. And it's hard to say he gave them hope when he clearly doesn't do anything to change the social infrastructure to help prevent those problems in the first place. He just goes "meh, you'll always have poor people".


Most of those things were invented by pagans first.


I think the Dharmic religions do a better job at this kind of message, though.


Why? I am loyal to God, not a book.


There are lots of problems with the evidence of Jesus. I'm not a mythicist, but we're clearly dealing with someone who got a lot of fanfics written about him.


But if the self-righteous jerks were the problem, why did he not minister to them? They were the ones whose hearts needed changing, not their victims.


Some theists just wanted to change the channel and see what else was on.


"They" didn't kill Jesus. Romans did. For being a terrorist when he attacked people with a whip at the Temple and inciting riots.


Sun Wukong did that multiple times. He fought both heaven and hell, denouncing the corruption in each, and gained at least several methods of immortality. Sun Wukong is what Jesus would be if Jesus tried harder.


Many more than that witnessed Sun Wukong's epic coolness.


Sun Wukong fought demons, healed people, fought some more demons, made friends with demons because of plot reasons (Jesus says to love our enemies but he doesn't), helped people and demons progress spiritually, fought some more demons, had powers that make Jesus look sadly underpowered, like putting Thanos up against Phil Coulson, brought sacred texts to China, became a Buddha ....


Note that whenever non-Jews wanted his help, they had to guilt-trip him first. Jews just "asked, and received." He was shocked that gentiles could have faith, so there goes omniscience.

I mean, he flat out tells a non-Jewish woman, who he calls a dog, btw, that he only came here for Jews. Gentiles weren't even on his to-do list. He never goes out of his way to minister to them at all.

It was the teachings of Jesus which inspired this new civilisation even to the present day. Much of western society’s progress and advancement came out of the dark ages and the rediscovery Of Greek classics with commentaries and elucidated explanations on how to put into practice many sciences. Without both Christ and Muhammad we would be no better than cave dwellers.

 

[wizanda]

This is exactly what I'm driving at.

Everything was done for him.

The things Yeshua did whilst alive, such as speaking in parables (Psalms 78:2), healing the sick (Isaiah 35:5-6), sharing the Gospel/Testimony (Isaiah 8:16), forgiving sins (Exodus 23:20-21), raising the dead (Isaiah 26:19), etc are all to show the preemptive fulfillment of Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh...

When we understand the historicity of Moses's Curse being placed two thousand years ago (Deuteronomy 28:53-55, Zechariah 11:9), it is only a lack of study that leads people to rejecting it.

In my opinion.

 

[Shantanu]

It was the teachings of Jesus which inspired this new civilisation even to the present day. Much of western society’s progress and advancement came out of the dark ages and the rediscovery Of Greek classics with commentaries and elucidated explanations on how to put into practice many sciences. Without both Christ and Muhammad we would be no better than cave dwellers.

The point of the thread is that we have very little record of the life of Jesus Christ because the Bible (New Testament) was compiled much later. It is one thing that one justifies Christianity but quite another thing to glorify Jesus Christ as the Saviour in historical terms. There simply is not enough evidence for historical Jesus.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The point of the thread is that we have very little record of the life of Jesus Christ because the Bible (New Testament) was compiled much later. It is one thing that one justifies Christianity but quite another thing to glorify Jesus Christ as the Saviour in historical terms. There simply is not enough evidence for historical Jesus.

I see that the Catholic Church has traceable history right back to the event.

600 years after Christ Muhammad confirmed those records by acknowledging Jesus was a Mesenger from God.

It was never a debatable issue. Then we enter a time foretold by Jesus who already suggested that we would reject sound knowledge.

I am willing to bet you do not find much evidence in Persian/Iran records about the life and existence of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Thus this explains also what would have happened in the time of Jesus. They would have tried to destroy any evidence that Jesus existed, but they failed, the disciples carried the evidence in stories and then they were recorded.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

The point of the thread is that we have very little record of the life of Jesus Christ because the Bible (New Testament) was compiled much later. It is one thing that one justifies Christianity but quite another thing to glorify Jesus Christ as the Saviour in historical terms. There simply is not enough evidence for historical Jesus.

To me God is eternal, All Knowing and timeless so God has knowledge of all things past, present and future.

In that context 3 Manifestations of God have appeared since the time of Jesus all confirming the historical Jesus existed and His teachings and His Life.

So we have Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah all testify to Jesus as a Manifestation of God that historically existed.

If one does not accept the Word of the All Knowing God then he will accept nothing.

Of course if one omits God and His Messengers as Witnesses then confusion not certainty will abound.

 

[Shantanu]

I see that the Catholic Church has traceable history right back to the event.

600 years after Christ Muhammad confirmed those records by acknowledging Jesus was a Mesenger from God.

It was never a debatable issue. Then we enter a time foretold by Jesus who already suggested that we would reject sound knowledge.

I am willing to bet you do not find much evidence in Persian/Iran records about the life and existence of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Thus this explains also what would have happened in the time of Jesus. They would have tried to destroy any evidence that Jesus existed, but they failed, the disciples carried the evidence in stories and then they were recorded.

Regards Tony

In order to prove historical Jesus according to faith, one has to assess the miracles that Jesus Christ is supposed to have performed: ''The miracles of Jesus are the supernatural deeds attributed to Jesus in Christian and Islamic texts. The majority are faith healings, exorcisms, resurrection, control over nature and forgiveness of sins.
In the Synoptic Gospels (Mark, Matthew, and Luke), Jesus refuses to give a miraculous sign to prove his authority. In the Gospel of John, Jesus is said to have performed seven miraculous signs that characterize his ministry, from changing water into wine at the start of his ministry to raising Lazarus from the dead at the end.'' Miracles of Jesus - Wikipedia.
Do you believe that these miracles were genuine human generations or accepted in faith of the validity of Christianity.

 

[Shantanu]

To me God is eternal, All Knowing and timeless so God has knowledge of all things past, present and future.

In that context 3 Manifestations of God have appeared since the time of Jesus all confirming the historical Jesus existed and His teachings and His Life.

So we have Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah all testify to Jesus as a Manifestation of God that historically existed.

If one does not accept the Word of the All Knowing God then he will accept nothing.

Of course if one omits God and His Messengers as Witnesses then confusion not certainty will abound.

I have had consistent communications with God over 20 years and have no evidence that there have ever been any Messengers of God: God just exists for individual consultations and from these individual consultations religions are created. These are genuinely felt religions no doubt but one does not have to take anything of the past literally. One should endeavour to create one's own religion based on consultations with God with the modern gadgets and amenities that are at our disposal. Unless one does this one lives in the past glorifying the unjustifiable according to modern standards of assessing truth.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I have had consistent communications with God over 20 years and have no evidence that there have ever been any Messengers of God: God just exists for individual consultations and from these individual consultations religions are created. These are genuinely felt religions no doubt but one does not have to take anything of the past literally. One should endeavour to create one's own religion based on consultations with God with the modern gadgets and amenities that are at our disposal. Unless one does this one lives in the past glorifying the unjustifiable according to modern standards of assessing truth.

Follow your heart and whatever works best for you. If you are happy with your belief in the last 20 years then I am happy for you.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you believe that these miracles were genuine human generations or accepted in faith of the validity of Christianity.

I see the miracles mainly as Metephor. I see Jesus the Christ could do anything he wished to, but Christ did not come for a magic show. Christ came to show us how to be born again in the spirit. How to bring our potential our from our innermost selves. Everything he did was to show us that power of mind exists within us by our choice.

Christ is in my heart now and has been in hearts from the beginning that has no beginning and will to the end that has no end, Christ is more real than this world we live in, this world is our illusion.

Regards Tony