Are you closed minded?

[Jollybear]

Prove it-- the fact that you make this claim? Is pretty strong proof that gods do not, in fact, exist...

.... an actual god would never need such as you, to argue for it's existence...

Thats true, God dont need me to argue for his existence because design and spiritual experiences are enough to convince me hes there. I dont need anyone to argue his existence for me.

 

[Audie]

I wonder if anyone is more closed minded than
those who believe they get their info from
the infallible word of god.

 

[Jollybear]

I hope also-- because of gods do exist? They are either indifferent or malicious in their evil....

You think so? Why do you think they would be indifferent or evil?

Also is this belief influincing your view on gods not existing? Because if it is, then your view is based on emotion.

 

[Jollybear]

I wonder if anyone is more closed minded than
those who believe they get their info from
the infallible word of god.

Either we get it from the infallible word of God or we get it from the infallible word of audie.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Very certain. What caused us? God.

A long time ago, before humans knew how the sun warms the earth unevenly, causing areas of higher and lower air pressure, resulting in the movement of air from areas of high pressure to low pressure, all 100% naturally, well, people were very certain that those winds -- especially the strong ones -- needed gods to push them around. So the Greeks had Aeolus, the Japanese Fujin, Norse had Njord, Hindus at Vayu and so on.

Now we know a little better, so we no longer need god for moving the air. Not for making it rain, or to give good harvests or to aid and abet us in war, or pretty much anything else that those busy gods of long ago were charged with doing.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I have no idea if God exist or not but I suspect that he does in some form. But if that is the case he is nothing at all like any religion might suggest.
At a personal level I think the concept of the Holy Spirit is easier to understand.
Even the bible leaves the nature of God very open ended

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

So, by using the materialistic paradigm, if god(s) are possible, then God’s existence is likely. No?

No. Materialism makes no such claim. Philosophical materialism is the idea that the fundamental nature of reality is material, and that all properties of reality including consciousness are based in and derived from matter/energy. A better term is physicalism, since it doesn't prioritize matter over other aspects of physical reality including force, space, and time.

Materialism makes no comment about gods except that if they exist, like everything else that exists, they are also matter or derived from it.

Methodological materialism and science have shown us how the universe could have assembled itself and continue to run itself on a daily basis without intelligent oversight. As time marches on, there appears to be less for a god to do even if one like the deist god exists.

So rather than materialism pointing toward a god, it points the other way.

Also, there is no value except perhaps to theists who view the mind og God as the fundamental level of reality in guessing between the available options, materialism, idealism, neutral monism, and dualism. None can be ruled in or out.

Given the materialistic notion that there is no intelligence at Big Bang stage what is the likelihood of a man creating this? Very very unlikely. Almost zero probability No?

Pretty much everything that happens is extremely unlikely if you take into account how many things had to precede it or how many factors had to be just so. What are the odds that your parents would find one another, and that the exact spermatozoan with the precise DNA sequence that it contains, different from the others due to gene shuffling in meiosis, outraced millions of competitors and found your mother while ovulating the only ovum that would have produced you? Did your ovum come from her right ovary? Lucky it wasn't the left one ovulating that month.

Everything is easily depicted as unlikely. What are the odds that you would have the Social Security Number that you have? Your phone number? Your home address. Each is infinitesimal, and having them appear all together in the same person is mind-bogglingly unlikely. Then throw in your car license plate, and the serial numbers on the bills in your billfold, their orientation and order in your wallet.

What are the odds of all of that being the case, and you just as you are exist today? It depends how you frame it.

I suppose that labels me here as ‘super closed minded’ but not to worry as I would prefer this ‘super closed mindedness’ any day to the ‘open mindedness’ of an atheists ‘doubt’. Lol.

You'd be better off open-minded. It offers the only hope of correcting an error if you have made one and good evidence suggests as much. Suppose you are turning over tens of thousands of dollars to a dishonest investment advisor that you have unwisely placed your faith in. If you close your mind to the possibility that you are being lied to and cheated, you will not be warned by the evidence, and will likely be drained as dry as you allow.

And not all atheists are open-minded. Some are faith-based thinkers. They might be climate deniers, for example. Or have faith in horoscopes or the pronouncements of fortune cookies.

I believe in basic (not survival of the fittest, which I condemn for its role in Nazi theory and eugenics) evolution.

Survival of the fittest is a fact of competition and a selective process, and is not confined to biological evolution. Restaurants compete with one another for scarce resources - patrons and their dollars. Those that meet the needs of enough people to earn their business and keep their doors open will likely do so. Those that cannot compete because a perceived flaw in location, menu, ambiance, sanitation, parking, price, service - whatever - will be forced to adapt or close. That's a bad thing for the restaurateur, but a good thing for the community.

I'm not convinced atheists are anything but ppl more angry at God than the rest.

Atheists are people that have learned to navigate life without a god belief, which seems to me to be the enviable position. You mentioned that your religious beliefs might have saved you from suicide, and that's good that you found some comfort there, but wouldn't you be better off not to have that problem? It's like eyeglasses - a great invention for those with impaired vision correctable with lenses, but better to have good vision without them.

If you were actually atheist you would necessarily have to care about God not at all

I am atheist and I don't care about gods. Nor vampires, nor leprechauns. None of them play any role in my life, possibly because none of them exist.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I wonder if anyone is more closed minded than
those who believe they get their info from
the infallible word of god.

As the old saying goes, and I agree that in order for the mind to work it should be like a parachute: open.
However, some people are so very open-minded that it seems as if their brains are ready to fall out.
Since Jesus got his beliefs from the 'Word' (Scripture) of God, then one is saying that Jesus is closed minded.
I wonder what is closed minded about Jesus' Sermon on the Mount ________________

 

[URAVIP2ME]

................At a personal level I think the concept of the Holy Spirit is easier to understand.................

Since God's holy spirit is taught in Scripture, I find the Bible's concept of it is easy to understand.
I find we are told at Luke 11:13 we can pray asking for God's spirit.
At Luke 11:20 I find God's spirit is also termed as the ' finger of God '.
It was God's spirit, His finger that wrote the commandments found at Exodus 31:18.
Thus, I notice that the word ' spirit' and the word ' finger ' are one and the same.
Plus, as Numbers 11:17,25 God's spirit is used in the neuter 'it'
So, when God sends forth His spirit, then He is sending ' it ' - Psalms 104:30.
'it' being impersonal, and as demands change so does the amount of God's spirit that is measured out.
So then, God's impersonal holy spirit is like the power from a power-plant grid to bring power as needed.

 

[blü 2]

Are you absolutely certain god exists or not?

Atheists: 15 - Theists: 11
Uncertain atheists: 12 - Uncertain theists: 4
Absolutely Certain atheists: 3 - Absolutely Certain theists: 7

I have no idea what real thing the word 'God' is intended to denote. I think the expression 'real god' is incoherent.

So if we're talking about real gods, ones with objective existence, I don't know what the question means.

If we're talking about imaginary gods, yes, I'm very confident that they exist.

 

[atanu]

No. Materialism makes no such claim. Philosophical materialism is the idea that the fundamental nature of reality is material, and that all properties of reality including consciousness are based in and derived from matter/energy.

I think I said the same? Furthermore I do not know why you reversed my argument. Beethoven’s example is the first point.

 

[Jollybear]

To really have expanatory power, though, there must be a way to distinguish between the statement and its negation. In this case, that isn't possible.

I think there being the appearence of design and then explaining it as actual design, that is the negation.

It's a joke.

Oh really? I was hoping that statement was serious, that way i could have intellectually traped you. Oh well, better luck next time.

What laws do I operate under? Can I simply speak things into existence? Why is that possible? Or do I have to use some technology to put my ideas into action?

Either one would do, you would be God.

Also, if you think about it, speaking stuff into existence or using technology to put your ideas into action, either one would be made out of the substance of you. If you make technology, it would be made out of you. If you speak stuff into existence, it be spoken out of you. Either way, the "stuff" would be made out of and from you.

And why would I be interested in creating a universe anyway?

Im not sure in your case, youd have to tell me. My gauss though would be to have fun, to express yourself, to pour yourself out in love, ect. To be an artist.

If I was really interested in creating universes, I would write computer simulations of a wide variety of 'possible worlds' just to see how different variations lead to different results.

So, to have fun? After you saw the different results, what would you do with them?

/E: Hmmm....I guess that would be a sort of multiverse, huh?

Yes, it would. Which means a multiverse dont disprove God.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I'm not convinced atheists are anything but ppl more angry at God than the rest. If you were actually atheist you would necessarily have to care about God not at all, but very few I've encountered are like this.

I'm not convinced that theists really believe in the god they claim to believe in. If they were truly certain, they would not care at all, if nobody else believes or not. Yet-- they continue to threaten non-theists with terrible things.

If you were actually theist, you'd not be bothered.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Thats true, God dont need me to argue for his existence because design and spiritual experiences are enough to convince me hes there. I dont need anyone to argue his existence for me.

Yet... if your god was really good? And even one millionth as powerful as you claim? It would do whatever needed, to be convincing to people such as I. It would know what to do, and it would definitely not send such as you to represent it's interests.

Because you, and people like you, are excellent reasons not to believe in god.

But you won't even consider what I just said, because you are so sure you're doing the right thing... in spite of evidence to the contrary.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not convinced atheists are anything but ppl more angry at God than the rest. If you were actually atheist you would necessarily have to care about God not at all, but very few I've encountered are like this.

I think that everybody cares about God, because on a subconscious level, we all know God exists... and that is why I cannot get away from that Fella... He has infiltrated my mind!

 

[loverofhumanity]

No. Materialism makes no such claim. Philosophical materialism is the idea that the fundamental nature of reality is material, and that all properties of reality including consciousness are based in and derived from matter/energy. A better term is physicalism, since it doesn't prioritize matter over other aspects of physical reality including force, space, and time.

Materialism makes no comment about gods except that if they exist, like everything else that exists, they are also matter or derived from it.

Methodological materialism and science have shown us how the universe could have assembled itself and continue to run itself on a daily basis without intelligent oversight. As time marches on, there appears to be less for a god to do even if one like the deist god exists.

So rather than materialism pointing toward a god, it points the other way.

Also, there is no value except perhaps to theists who view the mind og God as the fundamental level of reality in guessing between the available options, materialism, idealism, neutral monism, and dualism. None can be ruled in or out.



Pretty much everything that happens is extremely unlikely if you take into account how many things had to precede it or how many factors had to be just so. What are the odds that your parents would find one another, and that the exact spermatozoan with the precise DNA sequence that it contains, different from the others due to gene shuffling in meiosis, outraced millions of competitors and found your mother while ovulating the only ovum that would have produced you? Did your ovum come from her right ovary? Lucky it wasn't the left one ovulating that month.

Everything is easily depicted as unlikely. What are the odds that you would have the Social Security Number that you have? Your phone number? Your home address. Each is infinitesimal, and having them appear all together in the same person is mind-bogglingly unlikely. Then throw in your car license plate, and the serial numbers on the bills in your billfold, their orientation and order in your wallet.

What are the odds of all of that being the case, and you just as you are exist today? It depends how you frame it.



You'd be better off open-minded. It offers the only hope of correcting an error if you have made one and good evidence suggests as much. Suppose you are turning over tens of thousands of dollars to a dishonest investment advisor that you have unwisely placed your faith in. If you close your mind to the possibility that you are being lied to and cheated, you will not be warned by the evidence, and will likely be drained as dry as you allow.

And not all atheists are open-minded. Some are faith-based thinkers. They might be climate deniers, for example. Or have faith in horoscopes or the pronouncements of fortune cookies.



Survival of the fittest is a fact of competition and a selective process, and is not confined to biological evolution. Restaurants compete with one another for scarce resources - patrons and their dollars. Those that meet the needs of enough people to earn their business and keep their doors open will likely do so. Those that cannot compete because a perceived flaw in location, menu, ambiance, sanitation, parking, price, service - whatever - will be forced to adapt or close. That's a bad thing for the restaurateur, but a good thing for the community.



Atheists are people that have learned to navigate life without a god belief, which seems to me to be the enviable position. You mentioned that your religious beliefs might have saved you from suicide, and that's good that you found some comfort there, but wouldn't you be better off not to have that problem? It's like eyeglasses - a great invention for those with impaired vision correctable with lenses, but better to have good vision without them.



I am atheist and I don't care about gods. Nor vampires, nor leprechauns. None of them play any role in my life, possibly because none of them exist.

How true! If I closed my mind I would still be an atheist and never have discovered Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i Faith. I’m very glad I had the ability to admit it when I was wrong about my atheist beliefs otherwise I would have missed out on so much.

 

[osgart]

No one is the master of inference from evidence.

No one is the master of proof.

Nothing has to necessarily follow as being absolutely true in logic but what is experienced minus the interpretation of it.

Secular humanists of the physicalist kind have us all stubbornly reduced to being illusions caused by the brain. That is nothing but psycho babble with religious ferverence toward materialism. Its a bald assertion backed by nothing. A mere belief system. Closed mindedness at its best. It would be ok but for their passionate insistence that everybody must think like they do. Its worse than christianity. The physicalists have come to save mankind from ourselves. No Thanks!

No one has a monopoly on rightfulness in interpreting the actuality of reality.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yet... if your god was really good? And even one millionth as powerful as you claim? It would do whatever needed, to be convincing to people such as I. It would know what to do, and it would definitely not send such as you to represent it's interests.

Because you, and people like you, are excellent reasons not to believe in god.

But you won't even consider what I just said, because you are so sure you're doing the right thing... in spite of evidence to the contrary.

Hello Bob. Good to read your post.

God I believe has done what was needed by sending Baha’u’llah to guide us from a conflicting nationalistic society towards a world civilisation based on human rights, virtues, humanitarian principles, equality and inclusiveness that of course includes atheists Bob. So you don’t have to join any religion just accept all human beings as equals. Can you do that much? I’m sure you can.

The world is but one country and mankind it’s citizens (Baha’u’llah)

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Hello Bob. Good to read your post.

God I believe has done what was needed by sending Baha’u’llah to guide us from a conflicting nationalistic society towards a world civilisation based on human rights, virtues, humanitarian principles, equality and inclusiveness that of course includes atheists Bob. So you don’t have to join any religion just accept all human beings as equals. Can you do that much? I’m sure you can.

The world is but one country and mankind it’s citizens (Baha’u’llah)

I find your "messenger" to be... less than convincing. In fact? The very existence of self-aggrandizing people such as your "profit" to be high quality proof that gods cannot possibly exist.

What sort of god would stoop so low, as to send someone who is so... unbelievable?

What sort of god even needs to use an intermediary, anyway? That smacks of either laziness, or incompetence or?

Worse-- it plays Special Favorites. Playing Special Favorites is UnJust.

That's not good-- especially if you are wanting to take the moral high ground.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Concerning god, most atheists are agnostic atheists or soft atheists. Therefore, their belief has some form of uncertainty. I, and I think other soft atheists, believe god(s) are possible, but unlikely.

Contrary to this, it seems most theists are absolutely certain god(s) exist. I’ve noticed, some theists will even say it’s possible their god does not exist but immediately deny what they said with some tangent. Therefore, they’re absolutely certain.

I propose that people who are absolutely certain about a topic, especially one as controversial as this, are closed minded. People who are closed minded cannot accept new information to the contrary; they’ll dismiss it without a thought. Even Socrates understood the immense problems with certainty. Even science does not use absolutely certainty.

Are you absolutely certain god exists or not?
VS Do you believe it’s most likely god exist but possible god does not exist or it’s unlikely but possible?

Here, I’ll go first.

I think it’s possible but unlikely god(s) exist. The end.

Let’s see how open minded or closed minded you are.

As a tracker, I'm going to see how many atheists vs theists answer this question. I'll try update this as much as I can and I won't name people to respect their identity

Atheists: 15 - Theists: 11
Uncertain atheists: 12 - Uncertain theists: 4
Absolutely Certain atheists: 3 - Absolutely Certain theists: 7

Just wanted to add. There’s good closed mindedness and bad closed mindedness. Let’s call it detachment because people can be attached or detached from anything or anyone or any idea.

I’m definitely closed minded to things like hatred, prejudice, war and discrimination but open minded to what will serve and better humanity, to what will bring peace, love, unity and happiness to the world and to see the good in people.

So for me there is attachment to noble and good things while detachment from all forms of evil.

So closed mindedness if towards good things can be bad but if one is closed minded to evil then that is a good thing.