Fascinating!

[cladking]

As a responsible parent, it is my job to protect my children's minds and bodies against my own biases and beliefs. My children must be allowed to become themselves, and not another "mini-me". I want to provide them with the best tools for their survival in society. Creating the seeds for cognitive dissonance in the future, might be in your own best interest, but it is certainly not in your child's best interest. The best tools I can encourage in my own children, is their ability to reason and critically think. Our schools should provide the outlet for improving and nurturing these abilities. I certainly would not expose my children to any unfalsifiable belief system, before they are able to understand the philosophies underlying the tenets. The idea is to allow all children the chance to reach their full potential. I not only know for certain that God(s) do not exist, but that God(s) cannot exist anywhere in our Universe.

I strongly agree.

I tell children to be careful what they believe because they will become their beliefs in time.

The schools have failed and they now indoctrinate rather than teach. It's all PC nonsense and they'll flunk them if they don't parrot it back.

 

[Deeje]

Science can prove nothing. Proof is not the standard of science.

Yes, we know......so you can't claim that what you can't prove is a true fact. Suggestions are not facts....assumptions are not facts. The theory is still a theory.....no matter how you redefine the word, science can't prove their theory. That is a fact.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Yes, we know......so you can't claim that what you can't prove is a true fact. Suggestions are not facts....assumptions are not facts. The theory is still a theory.....no matter how you redefine the word, science can't prove their theory. That is a fact.

And yet, you can still use a computer to communicate with people a world away.

A theory is not a guess like you want it to be. You cannot wish it away no matter what. It is the most powerful explanation for aspects of the world around us that can be supported with evidence. It is not belief that can be anything.

Facts are facts. Theories just explain them.

 

[Deeje]

Science has greatly advanced since the age of the Bible.
Wolfgang Pali discovered a 3rd road, ie, "not right, & not even wrong"

That is called "the fence" and some people feel safe sitting on it....it can be very uncomfortable....

......but according to the Bible, the world and its attitudes might change, but the Creator never does. He didn't build a fence, he built a road.....and it's a tough one to travel because a terrorist has booby-trapped it......so most people will choose an easier path or they can sit on the imaginary fence. Either way, choices are necessary.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is called "the fence" and some people feel safe sitting on it....it can be very uncomfortable....

......but according to the Bible, the world and its attitudes might change, but the Creator never does. He didn't build a fence, he built a road.....and it's a tough one to travel because a terrorist has booby-trapped it......so most people will choose an easier path or they can sit on the imaginary fence. Either way, choices are necessary.

The analogy doesn't work on us lifelong heathens what gots no Bible learn'n.

 

[Deeje]

Tis no great length to explain the behavior of pendulums with basic physics.
And this explanation offers insight into how systems behave.

What does "behave" mean here?

In connection with humans it means..."act or conduct oneself in a specified way, especially towards others."

So if inanimate things "behave" it means that they are programmed to act or interact in a certain way because of external forces that exist for no apparent reason. Who was responsible for the forces that made inanimate things "behave" that way in the first place? Its illogical to me that laws that have no lawmaker, can have purpose and effect on the bodies around them, accidentally.

To just say "God did it." is neither interesting nor illuminating.

Oh, but if God did it, it answers all the unanswered questions....how is that not interesting or illuminating?
It boggles my brains to think that humans have only scratched the surface when it comes to scientific knowledge.
Imagine what there is still to know.....? How can that kind of discovery be boring?

But to understand system behavior & harmonics is useful...although it
requires some math. I've had to use it when designing things to avoid
harmonic interaction which can cause things to break or perform poorly.

If you had no knowledge of mechanics in the first place, then you would be hard pressed to fix anything that went wrong with human inventions.
God's inventions are not well understood yet....we have a long way to go before we rule out an Intelligent Designer. Perhaps if the same amount of effort was spent in working with the Creator instead of against him, progress would not be so harmful to our species and lots of others. How long has the planet been in existence? How long did it take scientific minds to bring all life here to the brink of extinction? I don't think science deserves the 'worship' it receives personally.

Example....
I once had a customer hire me to fix his airport runway pavement testing
machine. (It applied a cyclic force to the concrete, & measured the
response to determine its condition & of the foundation.) I discovered
that the frequency of the applied force & the natural frequency of the
control system for the hydraulics were too close, causing interaction.
The simple fix was to....hey, I'm not giving up trade secrets!
Let's just say that I altered the control system to avoid conflict.

Without the knowledge to accomplish that alteration in frequency, the machine may well have become a redundant piece of useless junk.

Who taught you that knowledge? Was it just a flash of genius on your part or was it acquired by gaining knowledge from someone who was already educated in such things themselves?

 

[Deeje]

The analogy doesn't work on us lifelong heathens what gots no Bible learn'n.

You know that's easily fixed, don't you?

 

[Revoltingest]

What does "behave" mean here?

The movement of the pendulums, & in this case the patterns they create.

Who was responsible for the forces that made inanimate things "behave" that way in the first place? Its illogical to me that laws that have no lawmaker.....

The laws of physics are.
Why they are is a question which many answer, but no one knows.

Oh, but if God did it, it answers all the unanswered questions....how is that not interesting or illuminating?

Attributing it to God doesn't predict how the laws of physics underlie all that
we observe. But analyzing things using physics allows us to predict behaviors
& design sophisticated things. I wouldn't be able to design a hydraulic control
system for a spendy testing machine with the Bible, but I can & did with an
engineering textbook. It doesn't tell me who or what created the laws.
But it tells me how to use them.

It boggles my brains to think that humans have only scratched the surface when it comes to scientific knowledge.
Imagine what there is still to know.....? How can that kind of discovery be boring?

Doesn't seem boring to me.

If you had no knowledge of mechanics in the first place, then you would be hard pressed to fix anything that went wrong with human inventions.
God's inventions are not well understood yet....we have a long way to go before we rule out an Intelligent Designer. Perhaps if the same amount of effort was spent in working with the Creator instead of against him, progress would not be so harmful to our species and lots of others. How long has the planet been in existence? How long did it take scientific minds to bring all life here to the brink of extinction? I don't think science deserves the 'worship' it receives personally.

Science is useful.
"Worship" doesn't apply.

Without the knowledge to accomplish that alteration in frequency, the machine may well have become a redundant piece of useless junk.

Who taught you that knowledge? Was it just a flash of genius on your part or was it acquired by gaining knowledge from someone who was already educated in such things themselves?

The skill required was actually quite basic.
I could explain it to anyone whose education
exceeds which end of a hammer to hold.
Oddly....the more highly educated people who
owned it couldn't solve the problem.

 

[Deeje]

Yes we all do. And quite honestly this thread smacks of proselytizing, and trying to win people over to Christian or JW beliefs, and try to disprove science.

LOL...its in the "Science and Religion" forum....so no surprises there eh? I am giving my 2 cents worth on a topic that I found "Fascinating".

Disproving some science is incredibly easy...most people have no idea how much of what science projects is actually hot air.
They rely on the true scientific discoveries to blur the line between fact and fiction......like using adaptation to suggest macro-evolution is the same thing on a grander scale. One is proven in a lab...the other is just assumption and bad guesswork.

I might ask the same questions: why it's so important to prove God does exist and is creator and ruler of the universe? Why is it so important to prove science wrong? Whom are you trying to convince? I cannot understand why it's so important to believe that the Earth was created in a literal 6 days, and all creatures created in their current forms.Why is it so difficult and disconcerting if the Bible is metaphor? If it is metaphorical and allegorical that doesn't discount truths that it contains, as do all scriptures.

Well, FYI, Jesus told us to spread the word about his Kingdom, because in the near future we may well see the death of the current world system of things and and all who support it, to make way for Earth's new rulership. (Daniel 2:44) That makes this a life and death proposition. Would you like no choice in the matter?

We are asked to make choices because our eternal future depends on it. Why do you think we care about getting the message out there. If we didn't care we would just cosy up in our favorite chair and smugly read our Bibles. You can shoot the messenger but it doesn't make the message go away.

There are a great many theists who have no problem reconciling science, be it evolution, theoretical physics, paleontology or any other science, wit the existence of God. I myself have no problem with it, and I am certainly no atheist. The Roman Catholic Church has no problem with the model of the Big Bang. Did you know that? Pope John Paul II said it's perfectly fine to study it up to the time it happened, But to probe beyond it, to try to tease out what happened before, where it came from, is venturing into God's territory and shouldn't be pursued.

I have no interest in what other "Christians" believe. (Matthew 7:21-23) That is their problem....real Christians do not throw God and his Christ (both of whom the Bible says brought all things into existence in the first place) under the bus because they don't want to lose face with the academics......who wants to look like an uneducated dummy...right?

This issue 'separates the sheep from the goats'. Either God is the Creator of all things as he claims....or science is correct and we all just mindlessly evolved from an amoeba in some organic soup millions of years ago.

I have made my decision and I don't care what anyone thinks of me.....I will stand up and be counted as one who appreciates everything God has purposefully created. And I will wait patiently for the day when his promise to rectify all that has transpired here, by means of his Kingdom to come....only then can his will "be done on earth as it is in heaven". In the meantime I will carry the message to whomever wants to hear it.

Because that is what I believe....

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I certainly agree with "polymath257". If a grown adult wants to believe in Jediism, Jainism, or the flying spaghetti monster, it is none of my business. But to indoctrinate the minds of the most vulnerable and helpless members of our society, with unfalsifiable religious beliefs, is tantamount to mental child abuse. To stifle the child's inquisitive mind with ignorance and superstition, is irresponsible and selfish. If you think that your beliefs are correct, then provide the objective evidence to support them. Of course you can't, so you simply blame it on the stubbornness of those that disagree with you. Since you can't convince any skeptic, realists, or rational thinker, you spread your nonsense to kids that can't rationally or logically defend themselves. What are you afraid of? That they might grow up and choose facts over fantasy? That their facts don't agree with your beliefs? You want our schools to teach our kids that fantasies, superstitions, creationism, and God(s), are real and not beliefs? How much more "dumbing down" of America can we endure? I think it is a sad and preventable tragedy, that kids wind up like these kids, because of their parent's delusions, insecurities, and ignorance.

As a responsible parent, it is my job to protect my children's minds and bodies against my own biases and beliefs. My children must be allowed to become themselves, and not another "mini-me". I want to provide them with the best tools for their survival in society. Creating the seeds for cognitive dissonance in the future, might be in your own best interest, but it is certainly not in your child's best interest. The best tools I can encourage in my own children, is their ability to reason and critically think. Our schools should provide the outlet for improving and nurturing these abilities. I certainly would not expose my children to any unfalsifiable belief system, before they are able to understand the philosophies underlying the tenets. The idea is to allow all children the chance to reach their full potential. I not only know for certain that God(s) do not exist, but that God(s) cannot exist anywhere in our Universe.

If you are teaching your children that Evolution is a supposition or a belief, then you are telling your children lies and half-truths. If you are teaching your children to be skeptical of science, and gullible to the existence of a non-physical reality, a devil, and a God, then you are doing your child an intellectual disservice. Teaching your child that they are sinful in the eyes of God, and should be fearful of His wrath of going to hell, unless they obey His commandments, is just ignorance and child abuse. The rest of your post is just sheer proselytizing and sermonizing. There is no such thing as "eyes of faith", or special glasses for "spiritual vision". You are just another person of faith, that wants to believe in something that cannot exist outside of the mind. At least Atheists will gladly change their lack of belief, if they are presented with any objective falsifiable evidence. But no amount of evidence can change the mind of the truly faithful. Not even God Himself.

Good to see you. Been wondering where you were at. Maybe I have just been missing you when you are posting. Still thinking about those ribs.

 

[Deeje]

The movement of the pendulums, & in this case the patterns they create.

The laws of physics are.
Why they are is a question which many answer, but no one knows.

See...its the questions that have no answers that frustrate the daylights out of me.
I want to make sense of this life with all its idiosyncrasies, triumphs and tragedies. I want to know why and how such complex creatures could have accidentally produced themselves by "natural" means? How did the planet just happen to have all their food sources and habitats ready and waiting for them? If there is a law, I want to know why the law was made...what are its benefits compared to its detriments? I have a need to know and and a shovel that never gets put down. I will keep digging until I get a satisfying answer.

Attributing it to God doesn't predict how the laws of physics underlie all that
we observe. But analyzing things using physics allows us to predict behaviors
& design sophisticated things. I wouldn't be able to design a hydraulic control
system for a spendy testing machine with the Bible, but I can & did with an
engineering textbook. It doesn't tell me who or what created the laws.
But it tells me how to use them.

You miss the point....without the super computer in your head, no one would be able to do anything beyond animals instinct. Animals do not destroy their own habitat unless humans have intervened in their lives and territory. Humans are the only beings on this planet capable of so much good and yet they are destroying the only home they have......so much for human intelligence.

Science is useful.
"Worship" doesn't apply.

I'm afraid it does. Some treat science as a 'religion'.....they have their 'gods'....their 'scripture'....their temples....and their devotees. They have their belief system too.....everything that they assume but cannot verify with actual proof, is a belief commonly masquerading as a "theory". (The truth you have when you have no truth So "worship" definitely applies as I see it.

The skill required was actually quite basic.
I could explain it to anyone whose education
exceeds which end of a hammer to hold.
Oddly....the more highly educated people who
owned it couldn't solve the problem.

Its the bacon obviously.....it promotes some sort of genius in some people apparently....

And I agree....education is often highly overrated.

 

[Deeje]

And yet, you can still use a computer to communicate with people a world away.

Oh good grief! What has that got to do with anything?

My computer is not the product of evolution...is it?
It is the product of intelligent minds designing components which, when they are integrated into one unit, function to make the said communication available. Each component is individually designed and assembled by other intelligent minds to make one functioning piece of equipment that facilitates an amazing variety of functions. But unless there was a power source, (an independently designed system) the computer would not even be a useful ornament. Add to that its internet connectivity and here is yet another completely independent system that makes communication possible. Are any of these flukes of nature?

No one is disagreeing with what science knows....OK? It what science pretends to know that creates the problem. It is the certainty with which its projects its theory to convince people that it has the goods.....when it doesn't have anything of substance to offer. No facts, just assertions, suggestions and assumptions. That is not real science.....that is academic sleight of hand.

A theory is not a guess like you want it to be. You cannot wish it away no matter what. It is the most powerful explanation for aspects of the world around us that can be supported with evidence. It is not belief that can be anything.

The theory of evolution will always be a theory because science can never make it a fact.
Take germ theory for example......"Germ theory states that many diseases are caused by the presence and actions of specific micro-organisms within the body. The theory was developed and gained gradual acceptance in Europe and the United States from the middle 1800s. It eventually superseded existing miasma and contagion theories of disease and in so doing radically changed the practice of medicine. It remains a guiding theory that underlies contemporary biomedicine."

Germ Theory

Who can argue that germ theory is still a theory....? It is now established fact. They can identify specific bacteria and viruses that cause disease. But the fact remains that macro-evolution is not provable in the same way. The "evidence" they have requires interpretation by those who already believe that the theory is true. It is always going to be biased in its findings. The peer pressure in the scientific community pretty much guarantees it.

Facts are facts. Theories just explain them.

Theories CAN explain some of them....but evolution will never explain the complexity of life on this planet....the Eco-systems....or the symbiotic relationships.....or even the existence of the planet itself....its distance from the sun...its atmosphere...the mixture of gases...the angle of its axis and spin rate.....the presence of huge quantities of water, which in the oceans is not fit for consumption by land dwelling animals....so precipitation was necessary to convert sea water to fresh water so that land creatures, including man, could live. Are these all just fortunate flukes? They seem well designed to me.

 

[Revoltingest]

See...its the questions that have no answers that frustrate the daylights out of me.
I want to make sense of this life with all its idiosyncrasies, triumphs and tragedies. I want to know why and how such complex creatures could have accidentally produced themselves by "natural" means? How did the planet just happen to have all their food sources and habitats ready and waiting for them? If there is a law, I want to know why the law was made...what are its benefits compared to its detriments? I have a need to know and and a shovel that never gets put down. I will keep digging until I get a satisfying answer.

I am comfortable with my ignorance of such things.

You miss the point....without the super computer in your head, no one would be able to do anything beyond animals instinct. Animals do not destroy their own habitat unless humans have intervened in their lives and territory. Humans are the only beings on this planet capable of so much good and yet they are destroying the only home they have......so much for human intelligence.

I thought that point was just a minor one made in passing.
But I saw it....just not the need to address it.
I agree.
Humans foul their own nest.
They're not always rational animals.

I'm afraid it does. Some treat science as a 'religion'.....they have their 'gods'....their 'scripture'....their temples....and their devotees. They have their belief system too.....everything that they assume but cannot verify with actual proof, is a belief commonly masquerading as a "theory". (The truth you have when you have no truth So "worship" definitely applies as I see it.

I cannot speak to such people unless they post here,
& I learn exactly what they believe.

Its the bacon obviously.....it promotes some sort of genius in some people apparently....

Bacon is brain food.

And I agree....education is often highly overrated.

I & the owners had different experience & motivations regarding things technical.
I don't claim superiority...just different skill & orientation.
It seems I was caught unjustly bragging in that earlier post.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Oh good grief! What has that got to do with anything?

My computer is not the product of evolution...is it?
It is the product of intelligent minds designing components which, when they are integrated into one unit, function to make the said communication available. Each component is individually designed and assembled by other intelligent minds to make one functioning piece of equipment that facilitates an amazing variety of functions. But unless there was a power source, (an independently designed system) the computer would not even be a useful ornament. Add to that its internet connectivity and here is yet another completely independent system that makes communication possible. Are any of these flukes of nature?

No one is disagreeing with what science knows....OK? It what science pretends to know that creates the problem. It is the certainty with which its projects its theory to convince people that it has the goods.....when it doesn't have anything of substance to offer. No facts, just assertions, suggestions and assumptions. That is not real science.....that is academic sleight of hand.



The theory of evolution will always be a theory because science can never make it a fact.
Take germ theory for example......"Germ theory states that many diseases are caused by the presence and actions of specific micro-organisms within the body. The theory was developed and gained gradual acceptance in Europe and the United States from the middle 1800s. It eventually superseded existing miasma and contagion theories of disease and in so doing radically changed the practice of medicine. It remains a guiding theory that underlies contemporary biomedicine."

Germ Theory

Who can argue that germ theory is still a theory....? It is now established fact. They can identify specific bacteria and viruses that cause disease. But the fact remains that macro-evolution is not provable in the same way. The "evidence" they have requires interpretation by those who already believe that the theory is true. It is always going to be biased in its findings. The peer pressure in the scientific community pretty much guarantees it.



Theories CAN explain some of them....but evolution will never explain the complexity of life on this planet....the Eco-systems....or the symbiotic relationships.....or even the existence of the planet itself....its distance from the sun...its atmosphere...the mixture of gases...the angle of its axis and spin rate.....the presence of huge quantities of water, which in the oceans is not fit for consumption by land dwelling animals....so precipitation was necessary to convert sea water to fresh water so that land creatures, including man, could live. Are these all just fortunate flukes? They seem well designed to me.

Oh good grief. I was responding to your post about science and theories. You did not say evolution and I did not say evolution. Where do you come up with stuff?

Is it getting on sundown where you are?

 

[Revoltingest]

Who can argue that germ theory is still a theory....? It is now established fact.

I take the somewhat novel view that it's both theory and fact.
The existence of germs & that they cause disease is indeed factual
at this time. It is also a theory in that it is testable, ie, falsifiable.
But it is also a work in progress because things about germs &
disease are still being learned. Remember how ulcers were
discovered to be caused by germs? There are many more such
interesting relationships to discover & learn to use.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Oh good grief! What has that got to do with anything?

My computer is not the product of evolution...is it?
It is the product of intelligent minds designing components which, when they are integrated into one unit, function to make the said communication available. Each component is individually designed and assembled by other intelligent minds to make one functioning piece of equipment that facilitates an amazing variety of functions. But unless there was a power source, (an independently designed system) the computer would not even be a useful ornament. Add to that its internet connectivity and here is yet another completely independent system that makes communication possible. Are any of these flukes of nature?

No one is disagreeing with what science knows....OK? It what science pretends to know that creates the problem. It is the certainty with which its projects its theory to convince people that it has the goods.....when it doesn't have anything of substance to offer. No facts, just assertions, suggestions and assumptions. That is not real science.....that is academic sleight of hand.



The theory of evolution will always be a theory because science can never make it a fact.
Take germ theory for example......"Germ theory states that many diseases are caused by the presence and actions of specific micro-organisms within the body. The theory was developed and gained gradual acceptance in Europe and the United States from the middle 1800s. It eventually superseded existing miasma and contagion theories of disease and in so doing radically changed the practice of medicine. It remains a guiding theory that underlies contemporary biomedicine."

Germ Theory

Who can argue that germ theory is still a theory....? It is now established fact. They can identify specific bacteria and viruses that cause disease. But the fact remains that macro-evolution is not provable in the same way. The "evidence" they have requires interpretation by those who already believe that the theory is true. It is always going to be biased in its findings. The peer pressure in the scientific community pretty much guarantees it.



Theories CAN explain some of them....but evolution will never explain the complexity of life on this planet....the Eco-systems....or the symbiotic relationships.....or even the existence of the planet itself....its distance from the sun...its atmosphere...the mixture of gases...the angle of its axis and spin rate.....the presence of huge quantities of water, which in the oceans is not fit for consumption by land dwelling animals....so precipitation was necessary to convert sea water to fresh water so that land creatures, including man, could live. Are these all just fortunate flukes? They seem well designed to me.

You wouldn't happen to know anyone that goes by the name of Maz or Maz Here would you?

 

[Polymath257]

Yes, we know......so you can't claim that what you can't prove is a true fact. Suggestions are not facts....assumptions are not facts. The theory is still a theory.....no matter how you redefine the word, science can't prove their theory. That is a fact.

The only place where you find proof is in math or liquor. It isn't even possible to *prove* that there is a chair in my room as opposed to it being an illusion. If you are looking for that level of proof, you are left with solipsism as the only option.

 

[Deeje]

I certainly agree with "polymath257". If a grown adult wants to believe in Jediism, Jainism, or the flying spaghetti monster, it is none of my business. But to indoctrinate the minds of the most vulnerable and helpless members of our society, with unfalsifiable religious beliefs, is tantamount to mental child abuse. To stifle the child's inquisitive mind with ignorance and superstition, is irresponsible and selfish. If you think that your beliefs are correct, then provide the objective evidence to support them.

How much do you think young minds are indoctrinated by the entertainment industry these days? Religion is the least of your worries. What video games are your kids playing? What are they watching on YouTube? What influences are they getting from their peers at school? What are they accessing on the internet in the wee small hours of the morning, while their parents are asleep?

A little reality check is in order here, I think.....believing in God is nothing compared to those influences.

Since you can't convince any skeptic, realists, or rational thinker, you spread your nonsense to kids that can't rationally or logically defend themselves. What are you afraid of? That they might grow up and choose facts over fantasy? That their facts don't agree with your beliefs? You want our schools to teach our kids that fantasies, superstitions, creationism, and God(s), are real and not beliefs? How much more "dumbing down" of America can we endure? I think it is a sad and preventable tragedy, that kids wind up like these kids, because of their parent's delusions, insecurities, and ignorance.

Firstly it is not my job to convince anyone of anything. It is my job to expose what I see as one of the greatest con-jobs in the history of man. It is my job to make sure that 'adults' have both sides of the story because its the parent's job to instruct their children. No one has a right to tell parents what to teach their children unless it is against the law. Can you assure anyone that what they learn in science is fact and not fantasy? Beliefs exist on both sides of this issue, so can you identify scientific fact from fiction yourself? Or do you just swallow everything they tell you?

It has never been on the agenda of JW's to have religion taught in school, ever. We teach our own children at home and at our Christian meetings, so don't put the blame for that on us. We don't agree with Christendom's teachings anyway. There was no 6 literal days of creation....and the earth, like the universe, is very ancient....that is all in Genesis.

The "dumbing down of America" is very evident in so many ways....none more so than in the blind acceptance of a scientific theory that has no actual foundation in fact. Kids need exposure to all manner of beliefs and with the right guidance, can sift the facts from the fantasy....they are smarter than we give them credit for. Adults not so much it seems.

If you are teaching your children that Evolution is a supposition or a belief, then you are telling your children lies and half-truths. If you are teaching your children to be skeptical of science, and gullible to the existence of a non-physical reality, a devil, and a God, then you are doing your child an intellectual disservice.

Exposing our children to all of the story allows them to make up their own minds. No one is born a JW....it is our personal choice when we come of age to choose it. Some choose not to, as is their right. When you really examine the "evidence" you realize how much of what is accepted as fact, is nothing of the sort.

"Believing" that life 'poofed' itself into existence one day for no apparent reason, and then had the ability to morph itself into all the lifeforms we see both past and present on this earth, is not based on facts, but on assumptions......Identify the real fantasy. It takes as much 'faith' to believe what cannot be verified.

Teaching your child that they are sinful in the eyes of God, and should be fearful of His wrath of going to hell, unless they obey His commandments, is just ignorance and child abuse.

I agree...that is why we don't teach those things. We all have a propensity to do wrong...some more than others....it helps to know why we have that handicap and how to deal with it. Obeying God's laws is just common sense....the laws of the land were all based on them, in case you didn't know. But in our modern times, some of those laws have been let go. Have these changes made life any better? I can't see how. There is still a lot of hate in the world and it is passed down from parent to child...this is the education that needs modifying IMO. If we could teach our children to love half as well as we teach them to hate...we would all be better off.

The rest of your post is just sheer proselytizing and sermonizing. There is no such thing as "eyes of faith", or special glasses for "spiritual vision". You are just another person of faith, that wants to believe in something that cannot exist outside of the mind. At least Atheists will gladly change their lack of belief, if they are presented with any objective falsifiable evidence. But no amount of evidence can change the mind of the truly faithful. Not even God Himself.

Give me the definition of "truly faithful". I am happy to be in those ranks.

You can choose whatever belief system you like. Like it or not, theoretical science is a belief system. They have no "objective evidence" and "falsifiable" is just a word used to prop up the fact that they can prove nothing about macro-evolution. They can't even prove that it ever happened.

God is not falsifiable.....you cannot prove that he doesn't exist by any existing method of testing.

 

[Deeje]

The only place where you find proof is in math or liquor. It isn't even possible to *prove* that there is a chair in my room as opposed to it being an illusion.

Your chair can be proven to exist if others can see it and sit on it. My friend's husband had lewy body dementia and had great difficulty differentiating reality from delusion. The test he was told, to ascertain what was real, was to walk over and touch the thing or person, and if he could feel them, it wasn't a delusion. He could see all manner of things and people that no one else could....he could have conversations with people and hear them talking.....it took him quite some time to be convinced that his mind was playing tricks on him. The level of reality was mind blowing.

If you are looking for that level of proof, you are left with solipsism as the only option.

There is another option....the Creator exists with as much actual "proof" as macro-evolution.....choose your own option for your own reasons....isn't that what we do anyway?

 

[Deeje]

I take the somewhat novel view that it's both theory and fact.
The existence of germs & that they cause disease is indeed factual
at this time. It is also a theory in that it is testable, ie, falsifiable.
But it is also a work in progress because things about germs &
disease are still being learned. Remember how ulcers were
discovered to be caused by germs? There are many more such
interesting relationships to discover & learn to use.

Yes indeed, and I have no problem with any of that. Its wonderful that doctors are willing to go out on a limb to prove their cases. That doctor was an Aussie if I remember correctly, and he was given a hard time by the orthodox system before he was able to get through the wall of objection to prove the existence of Helicobacter as the culprit in stomach ulcers. My daughter-in-laws father suffered for years and when they gave him the antibiotic to kill the bacteria in his gut, he got well for the first time in over 20 years!

Where do people get the idea that I am anti-science?
I am an anti-evolutionist.....not the same thing at all.