Why don’t Baha’is in forums ever talk about what their religion is really all about?

[Jim]

Seriously? What a few members of a religion do and don’t do in Internet forums, is the best reason you can think of for people to debate about that religion every day for months, and make sweeping, vilifying generalizations about millions of people, without ever trying to find out what most of them are actually doing?

And I have not made "sweeping, vilifying generalizations about millions of people"

I wasn’t talking about you when I said that. Are you disagreeing that in debating with Baha’is people sometimes make sweeping, vilifying generalizations about Baha’is in general, without doing anything to find out if what they’re saying about Baha’is in general is actually true or not?

Looking back now, I do see you making an implicit vilifying generalization about Baha’is in general. In the context of what most Baha’is are doing, you present a vilifying interpretation of a message from the the House of Justice, as a possible reason for what a few Baha’is are doing in Internet forums, as if that’s how it will be understood and applied by most Baha’is.

 

[siti]

Well, ah . . .you choose to condemn, and misrepresent the Baha'i Faith based on your personal agenda and manipulate using the misuse of the word proselytize.

Where did I say proselytizing was a bad thing? What is bad is proselytizing whilst pretending that that is not what you are doing. What is bad is deliberately attempting to convince people that what you believe is the same as what they believe when you know very well that is not true. I don't have an "agenda" - I'm just calling it as I see it...I don't see why that causes so much consternation and backlash - but don't worry, I'm neither offended nor intimidated - if you want a frank and honest discussion about the tenets of your faith, I'm still game. If anyone doesn't, I have no idea what they are doing in religious debate forum.

 

[siti]

I wasn’t talking about you when I said that. Are you disagreeing that in debating with Baha’is people sometimes make sweeping, vilifying generalizations about Baha’is in general, without doing anything to find out if what they’re saying about Baha’is in general is actually true or not?

Looking back now, I do see you making an implicit vilifying generalization about Baha’is in general. In the context of what most Baha’is are doing, you present a vilifying interpretation of a message from the the House of Justice, as a possible reason for what a few Baha’is are doing in Internet forums, as if that’s how it will be understood and applied by most Baha’is.

I wasn't taking it personally, just pointing that if some have done I have not. And I did not present a 'vilifying interpretation' of the UHJ letter, I quoted a fairly large portion of it verbatim. If that is 'vilifying' I suggest you take it up with the UHJ - they wrote it.

Anyway, all that apart, the most important part of my post was the last part:

So - right - I think the time has come for you to finally reveal all - if it is not increasing the number of converts (by whatever means) - what exactly is it that the UHJ wants you all to do?

Are you ready and willing to answer that question - or not? If not, I really don't know what you are (again) complaining about (apart from everything).

 

[Jim]

@siti I’ve always thought better of you than this. What you’re doing right now to Baha’is looks exactly to me like the tactics that campaigns against Muslims use, ripping the Quran out of its social and cultural context, and interpreting it in a way that vilifies all Muslims.

 

[sayak83]

I’m at the end of my patience about this. Can any Baha’i explain to me why no Baha’is in any Internet forums, including Baha’i Forums, ever have any interest in any discussion about what their communities are doing most of all with other people, and what their supreme world council has been promoting most of all for more than 15 years?

Achieving world peace?

 

[Aupmanyav]

My question was for Baha’is, about why all Baha’is posting in all Internet forums including Baha’i forums have zero interest in what their world council has been promoting most of all for more than 15 years, but now I’m wondering also why every single person debating against Baha’is day after day, month after month, is so willfully ignorant about it.

Are Bahais doing more than what Christians do? So, I do not understand what they are bragging about. These things are 'dharma' and every one should be doing it without any desire of return. In Hinduism, we have a saying "Gupta daana, maha daana" (What is given without advertising is the biggest giving). The left hand should not know what the right hand is doing.

 

[siti]

@Jim - I quoted a fairly long passage from a letter from the UHJ which you directed us to look at to see what it is that the UHJ is encouraging Baha'is to do - it is not out of context at all - and then I asked you a question - how on earth are you interpreting that as 'vilification'? Now how about you stop complaining and (for the third time of asking) give a straight answer to the question: what is it that the UHJ wants all Baha'is to do?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I've discussed with Baha'i now for at least 2 years, and I still have no idea what it's all about. I'd love to know.

It is about Bahullah being the manifestation of their one God replacing the messages of all manifestations prior to him by "progressive revelation" (alas, the One God cannot draft a message which will last for ever, he seems to need legal and secretarial assistance); and of course whatever % of income that the House of Justice desires from its adherents to the cause of Bahaullah (making more temples of worship). Islam mandated 2.5%, which Pakistan deducts from the bank accounts of people as a routine. Funny world, is not it?

 

[CG Didymus]

You're right. I actually don't want to know, as I'm totally content with my own religion. Very few people actually want to know about other people's religions. I rarely get asked any questions about my faith. I'll give you some background then so you'll have an idea why I discuss with Baha'i at all. My first post was simply a question about why Krishna was listed as a 'Manifestation' and I pointed out that it wasn't the Hindu belief. After I was told how wrong I was, it morphed into a curiousity on my part, not so much about the beliefs, but far more just about the attitude i saw in members of your faith. I had rarely encountered that sort of attitude anywhere, and was somewhat fascinated by it, sort of as an in depth case study of why people believe how they believe. One of those discussions morphed into one of the longest threads ever on RF. I can't remember even the name of it now. Mostly between myself, Adrian, Tony, and LoverofHumanity, but also Didymus, and Oldbadger.

I never did come to understand the mindset, and still don't. But it feels like it's time to withdraw from all this again. Sorry to have troubled you. It will be about my third time at withdrawing discussing with Baha'i. I guess I never learn my lesson, lol
Best wishes. Maybe in a few weeks I'll get suckered into it again.

We went so far off the topic of the OP in that thread... it was awesome. I don't even know what the point of this thread is. Siti's been asking for the answer to what Baha'i headquarters really wants them to be doing and I haven't seen a Baha'i answer yet. What's going on here?

 

[Jim]

I don't even know what the point of this thread is. Siti's been asking for the answer to what Baha'i headquarters really wants them to be doing and I haven't seen a Baha'i answer yet. What's going on here?

Sorry, I might be the one who dragged it off topic. My topic originally was why don’t Bahá’ís in Internet discussions ever talk about what Baha’i communities are doing most of all, with other people, everywhere in the world. I thought that maybe they’re ashamed of it, but now I see that it might be more that they don’t understand it. Or both. Or neither. I’m still waiting to see if there’s any better explanation.

 

[Jim]

But all you seem to do is bemoan the fact that nobody seems to recognize an obvious truth about the larger community of Baha'is in the real world ...

No, I don’t think it’s obvious at all, even to Baha’is. I’ve seen many Baha’is, including most or all the ones I’ve seen in Internet discussions, who don’t seem to me to have any clue of what it’s all about.

 

[siti]

Anyone who wants to know could easily find out in less than half an hour. I don’t think that any amount of discussion is going to penetrate the bewildering willful ignorance that I’m seeing here.

No, I don’t think it’s obvious at all, even to Baha’is. I’ve seen many Baha’is, including most or all the ones I’ve seen in Internet discussions, who don’t seem to me to have any clue of what it’s all about.

OK - and notwithstanding the apparent contradiction in these two comments - why don't you just tell us then? What IS it all about?

 

[Jim]

I’m at the end of my patience about this. Can any Baha’i explain to me why no Baha’is in any Internet forums, including Baha’i Forums, ever have any interest in any discussion about what their communities are doing most of all with other people, and what their supreme world council has been promoting most of all for more than 15 years?

Achieving world peace?

Hopefully that too, but that isn’t what I meant. Maybe it needs clarification. I’m talking about some specific activities at the heart of the community life of a growing number of Baha’i communities, activities which the House of Justice has been promoting most of all for more than 15 years; and the context in which it has been promoting them. The words I italicized are another clue to help Baha’is to guess what I’m talking about, if any of them would like to try. Adrian has named two of them.

 

[Jim]

Anyone who wants to know could easily find out in less than half an hour.

No, I don’t think it’s obvious at all, even to Baha’is. I’ve seen many Baha’is, including most or all the ones I’ve seen in Internet discussions, who don’t seem to me to have any clue of what it’s all about.

OK - and notwithstanding the apparent contradiction in these two comments ...

It’s only a contradiction if you presume that Baha’is who don’t know, really want to know.

Half an hour might be an exaggeration. It might take an hour or two, for some people. Also it only applies to people with access to the whole Internet. It might need clarification. I’m talking about some specific activities which are at the heart of the community life of a growing number of Baha’i communities, and which the House of Justice has been promoting for more than 15 years.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Let's all drop the my god is better than your god and you have to believe what I do or you are the enemy battle and come up with viable solutions to problems for all of humanity.

It is not about God. Bahais agree that it is the same as of anyone else's AND ONLY ONE (that, unfortunately, leaves out most of Hindus, Buddhist and Jains, who have no God). The tussle is about the messenger of this One God's message and finality. For Jews it is their prophet Moses, for Christians it is his son Jesus, for Muslims it is his messenger Mohammad, for LDS it is Saint Joseph Smith, for Ahmadiyyas it is mahdi Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and for Bahais it is manifestation Bahaullah. I wish there was any way to solve this tangle.

 

[Unguru]

It is not about God. Bahais agree that it is the same as of anyone else's AND ONLY ONE (that, unfortunately, leaves out most of Hindus, Buddhist and Jains, who have no God). The tussle is about the messenger of this One God's message and finality. For Jews it is their prophet Moses, for Christians it is his son Jesus, for Muslims it is his messenger Mohammad, for LDS it is Saint Joseph Smith, for Ahmadiyyas it is mahdi Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and for Bahais it is manifestation Bahaullah. I wish there was any way to solve this tangle.

You told me you where a Monist, yet you seem to only limit your so-called Monism to Advaita? what gives?
If all really is Brahman, then surely you would even except those all in their apparent falseness? (falseness being another wave in the sea of Brahman?)

 

[Jedster]

It is not about God. Bahais agree that it is the same as of anyone else's AND ONLY ONE (that, unfortunately, leaves out most of Hindus, Buddhist and Jains, who have no God). The tussle is about the messenger of this One God's message and finality. For Jews it is their prophet Moses, for Christians it is his son Jesus, for Muslims it is his messenger Mohammad, for LDS it is Saint Joseph Smith, for Ahmadiyyas it is mahdi Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and for Bahais it is manifestation Bahaullah. I wish there was any way to solve this tangle.

A suggestion to answer to your last sentence.

Maybe they should make some sort of challenge (non-violent) between them.
Something like the challenge between Maulvi Sanaullah & Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(Muhbala Challenge).
If everyone agreed the winner would unite the rest and there would be only one religion amongst them.

It still wouldn't help most Hindus, Buddhist, Jains and other non-theistic belief systems and may result in non-theists being more persecuted because of the unity amongst the above mentioned.


Mubahalah Challenge
Mubahalah Challenge | Claims of the Promised Messiah

 

[Aupmanyav]

You told me you where a Monist, yet you seem to only limit your so-called Monism to Advaita? what gives?
If all really is Brahman, then surely you would even except those all in their apparent falseness? (falseness being another wave in the sea of Brahman?)

I do. I accept that Hitler, Pot Pot, Stalin, Osama, Caliph Ibrahim, Jack the Ripper were/are none other than Brahman, since nothing other than Brahman exists in the world. But there are two levels of reality - The Absolute (Paramarthika Satya) and the Pragmatic (Vyavaharika Satya). I accept them at the Paramarthika level but not at the Vyavaharika level. The two levels cannot be mixed up.

On a scientific level, do I know that the 66% water in my body has a molecule of H20 which was not a part of Stalin's body at any one time? Air/water vapor do not accept the boundaries of countries. We think we are exclusive of our environment, but that is not true. The exchange of molecules is taking place with every breath. Basically we are all one, humans, animals, vegetation and non-living substances, all constituted by Brahman. The differences, name and form, Name-Roopa, etc., that you see in this illusory world are just appearances.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It still wouldn't help most Hindus, .. other non-theistic belief systems and may result in non-theists being more persecuted because of the unity amongst the above mentioned.

Oh, we are not afraid of that. As Allama Mohammad Iqbal, the National poet of Pakistan, once said:

Yūnān-o-Miṣr-o-Rūmā, sab miṭ ga'e jahāṉ se, Ab tak magar hai bāqī, nām-o-nis̱ẖaṉ hamārā;
Kuch bāt hai ki hastī, miṭ'tī nahīṉ hamārī, Ṣadiyoṉ rahā hai dus̱ẖman daur-e-zamāṉ hamārā.

In a world in which ancient Greece, Egypt and Rome have all vanished, but our own name and sign lives on even today;
there is something about our existence that it doesn't get wiped out, though the cycle of time has been our enemy for centuries.
Sare Jahan se Accha - Wikipedia

 

[paarsurrey]

I think it means you have the same free will I do and have to make your own choices.
We all, also have the choice to be nice to each other.
Regards Tony

"Nice" does not mean not to tell the truth. If the Bahaullah people are used to conceal the truth, then others must expose them. Right, please?

Regards