Why I Could Never Be a Christian (or Muslim)

[TagliatelliMonster]

You would hate that which created you?

My parents created me. And if my dad's name were Adolf Hitler and my mom's name Eva Braun, then I'ld have absolutely no problem hating them.

And if this God did torture rebels in hell forever, you think youd know better then him, a mere ant in comparison in mind and size?

A just, benevolent and mercifull god would not engage in eternal torture - especially not as a punishment for the things as those religions claim would earn you such punishment. Like not being convinced of something due to lack of evidence. No just, benevolent being would punish people for being rational.


A being that does such a thing, is by every definition known to me a deeply evil being.

I would not, and could not, worship or love a being that strikes me as being deeply deeply evil.

If it is said of this being that it's not evil and actually benevolent, then I'ld say that such statements are obviously wrong.

If this being's moral compass says it's okay to have people eternally tortured for having the audacity of doing their best to only hold rational beliefs that have rational supporting evidence, then I can honestly tell you that my moral compass is vastly, vastly superior to the one of that being.

So is yours. Because you to, would not bestow eternal torture upon someone for something so trivial. In fact, I'm having a very hard time to come up with ANY kind of crime for which eternal torture would be appropriate.
Or even any torture at all... even if only for 15 minutes.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I could never be a Christian or a Muslim because all the core concepts make absolutely no sense ... to me. Almost every time I hear more about it, I find myself shaking my head, and asking, "Really?"

Just about every religion, triggers such a reaction in me.
From abrahamic religions all the way to scientology.

 

[Vinayaka]

Just about every religion, triggers such a reaction in me.
From abrahamic religions all the way to scientology.

Yup. Within the vast umbrella of Hinduism, I'm very selective so that doesn't happen. When it does, I'm just shaking my head for a few hours. Then my poor wife has to put up with "You wouldn't believe what I heard today," until she tells me to shut up already.

 

[1213]

Who created the "unquenchable fire"? The reading seems pretty straightforward to me - why don't you explain it from your perspective if you feel differently?

Why imagine own explanations and not take it as it is written?

 

[Rational Agnostic]

OK. It is your right as a free will spiritual agent.

If I may ask, how could you possibly love a being that is going to subject anyone who disbelieves in it to an eternity of torture? You think that God chose you personally to be "saved" and yet you believe the majority of humanity is eternally damned. Does this not unsettle you in the slightest? How could you even enjoy heaven knowing that the majority of humanity was burning? I know I couldn't.

 

[Jollybear]

There is still a huge problem with this line of thinking, which is that you expect you can know that God has "perfect knowledge and wisdom." You have absolutely no way to verify this. You must realize that there are only a couple ways you came to this opinion:

1. Someone else told you that God's knowledge and wisdom are perfect, and you accepted it.
2. You read that God's wisdom and knowledge are perfect within The Bible, and you accepted it.
3. God Himself told you that His wisdom and knowledge are perfect, and you accepted it.

Theres another one you forgot about. Reason told me Gods wisdom and knowledge is perfect.

But several things thwart all of those:

1. You aren't God, and so you can't know what it is like to possess His level of wisdom and knowledge

You dont have to be God to reason that God would have perfect knowledge.

Even then, you don't have any standard or example of perfect wisdom and knowledge in order to be able to compare

We dont have to know what the perfect standard is to reason that God would know it. And if we knew thast standard, thwn wed have perfect knowledge.

And finally, you have no way of examining God in the first place, in order to even attempt a comparison

Again, no need too. Its just reasoning.

Can we just "take God's word for it?" Can we take people's word for it that the words they are speaking/writing come "from God?" Is there any way to verify the truth of claims like these?

Its just reason and logic.

 

[Deeje]

And if god is all knowing - why provide messages that are not straightforward but can be twisted to have more than one meaning?

Because God does not communicate his precious truth to everyone, even though his word can be read by everyone.

The apostle Paul explained it like this to those who were chosen to rule with Christ in heaven....

1 Corinthians 2:6-16...

"Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing. 7 But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory. 8 It is this wisdom that none of the rulers of this system of things came to know, for if they had known it, they would not have executed the glorious Lord. 9 But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” 10 For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.

11 For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit within him? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God except the spirit of God. 12 Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit that is from God, so that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words.


14 But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ."

Need we say more...?

 

[Jollybear]

My parents created me. And if my dad's name were Adolf Hitler and my mom's name Eva Braun, then I'ld have absolutely no problem hating them.

They are humans, not God.

A just, benevolent and mercifull god would not engage in eternal torture - especially not as a punishment for the things as those religions claim would earn you such punishment. Like not being convinced of something due to lack of evidence. No just, benevolent being would punish people for being rational.


A being that does such a thing, is by every definition known to me a deeply evil being.

I would not, and could not, worship or love a being that strikes me as being deeply deeply evil.

If it is said of this being that it's not evil and actually benevolent, then I'ld say that such statements are obviously wrong.

If this being's moral compass says it's okay to have people eternally tortured for having the audacity of doing their best to only hold rational beliefs that have rational supporting evidence, then I can honestly tell you that my moral compass is vastly, vastly superior to the one of that being.

So is yours. Because you to, would not bestow eternal torture upon someone for something so trivial. In fact, I'm having a very hard time to come up with ANY kind of crime for which eternal torture would be appropriate.
Or even any torture at all... even if only for 15 minutes.

I agree God would not torture someone forever.

But, hypothetically, IF im wrong perse and he would, i would then not reason as you do by saying hes evil. Id reason that this person he is torturing forever truely must be evil enough to deserve this and this God must be hurt enough by it to warrent this torture.

Now that said, again, i dont believe God tortures anyone forever.

Now you ask me, would i torture anyone for 15 minutes? YES, depending on what they did.

 

[Deeje]

Mark 9:43

2 Peter 2:4

Mark 9:45

Matthew 18:9

/E Surah 18:29

Surah 25:12-14

Poor Bible translation and misinterpretation are demonstrated here. What is translated "hell" in these verses is "gehenna", which like the "lake of fire" (Revelation) is a receptacle for the "trash" of the earth. "Gehenna" was Jerusalem's rubbish dump where the city's trash was consumed by literal fire to completely destroy anything that was thrown in there. The bodies of criminals as well as the carcasses of dead animals were also thrown into gehenna for disposal. It is a metaphor for complete and eternal destruction. Nothing alive was ever thrown into gehenna. It has nothing to do with "hell" or "hades" which are simply terms for the common grave of mankind.

The scripture in 2 Peter is an exception.....this is not "hell" either, but a word that appears only once in the Bible...."Tartarus", which is used to describe a place where God consigned the demons after the flood of Noah's day. It is not a literal place but a condition of restraint. The demons would not be allowed to materialize again and would not receive any spiritual enlightenment. This was the "prison" where Jesus went to pass judgment upon them after his resurrection.

 

[Kenny]

If I may ask, how could you possibly love a being that is going to subject anyone who disbelieves in it to an eternity of torture? You think that God chose you personally to be "saved" and yet you believe the majority of humanity is eternally damned. Does this not unsettle you in the slightest? How could you even enjoy heaven knowing that the majority of humanity was burning? I know I couldn't.

That is so subject to interpretation and viewpoints...

If I may ask you, how could you not love a being that left his position when He had every right to stay there and pay for all that one has done wrong, forgave all that one has done wrong, went to Hell and took one's place for what one has done wrong and invites one to live with Him just because of love?

 

[Rational Agnostic]

That is so subject to interpretation and viewpoints...

If I may ask you, how could you not love a being that left his position when He had every right to stay there and pay for all that one has done wrong, forgave all that one has done wrong, went to Hell and took one's place for what one has done wrong and invites one to live with Him just because of love?

You didn't answer the question. Would you still enjoy heaven knowing many of your family and friends are roasting for eternity? I sure wouldn't, and I sure wouldn't worship a god who did such a horrendous thing to my loved ones. In any case, it doesn't matter, because Christianity is a fable.

 

[Kenny]

You didn't answer the question. Would you still enjoy heaven knowing many of your family and friends are roasting for eternity? I sure wouldn't, and I sure wouldn't worship a god who did such a horrendous thing to my loved ones. In any case, it doesn't matter, because Christianity is a fable.

And you didn't answer mine...

I have led all my friends and family into the love of God and I spread it to those I don't know. Are you saying you don't want the love of God?

 

[Rational Agnostic]

And you didn't answer mine...

I have led all my friends and family into the love of God and I spread it to those I don't know. Are you saying you don't want the love of God?

OK, then. Would you still enjoy heaven knowing that most of humanity was roasting in hell? I would not. And no, I wouldn't want to spend eternity with a being that tortures the majority of humanity forever.

 

[Kenny]

OK, then. Would you still enjoy heaven knowing that most of humanity was roasting in hell? I would not. And no, I wouldn't want to spend eternity with a being that tortures the majority of humanity forever.

Whether it is eternity, it is up for interpretation and certainly "a being that tortures the majority of humanity" is definitely a misinterpretation ... however

He will submit to your decision as a free will spiritual agent that you are. The door is still open for His love for you is unending but He can't force you to come on into The House.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

They are humans, not God.

That doesn't seem to matter at all to the logical reasoning that states that just because someone created me, that someone is somehow deserving of blind worship, no matter what that entity does or doesn't do.

I don't swing that way.
I can't respect, let alone worship, someone that engages in barbaric evil.

I agree God would not torture someone forever.

A benevolent and just god wouldn't.
A douche god would. Or might.

But, hypothetically, IF im wrong perse and he would, i would then not reason as you do by saying hes evil

Then you are morally bankrupt.

Now you ask me, would i torture anyone for 15 minutes? YES, depending on what they did.

Wow, owkay then....

 

[Jollybear]

That doesn't seem to matter at all to the logical reasoning that states that just because someone created me, that someone is somehow deserving of blind worship, no matter what that entity does or doesn't do.

Ill explain why it being God, vs, human matters. A human is born in space/time, has limited knowledge. Even a lesser god, small g is born in space/time and has limited knowledge. But, the big G God, THEE source God, he is not born in space/time and his knowledge is not limited and is perfect.

Therefore, this being is not as simple as you may think. Hes not limited and his insight is fare deeper and greater then you can possibly imagine or fathom.

In my case, if this being wer to torture a soul for a crime, instead of just disagreeing with this being, id seek to understand why the need to torture forever. What kind of insight is this, you know? Again, wer talking about a being with perfect knowledge, not born in space/time.

I don't swing that way.
I can't respect, let alone worship, someone that engages in barbaric evil.

And again, i dont believe God engages in eternal torture.

A benevolent and just god wouldn't.
A douche god would. Or might.

Sure.

Then you are morally bankrupt.

No, you misunderstand because your looking at this too simple and with too much emotion.

I dont believe God would torture someone forever. BUT IF(IF, IF) im wrong and he does. My response would not be "how dare you God!". It would be "wow, i was wrong? How can this be possible? God, tell me why, make me see what you see in this?"

Wow, owkay then....

Yes, if say someone kidnapped my wife, tortured and killed her and stole her wallet.

If i found that person, i would torture them longer then 15 minutes. Id remind them every second of what they did.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Its just reason and logic.

No. It isn't.

See... if you can assert it without providing any actual justification, then I can shut it down in the exact same way. Except that I have the added "bonus" of being able to point out the fact that you have provided no sufficient justification for believing and making a positive claim about the existence of this thing you call "God", while I hold no such unsupported position.

I don't know whether God exists or not. I'm not going to "believe" it until I have sufficient, sound, rational justification. Otherwise it is just an unsupported possibility. There are plenty of those - many of which you, yourself don't believe in.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Ill explain why it being God, vs, human matters. A human is born in space/time, has limited knowledge. Even a lesser god, small g is born in space/time and has limited knowledge. But, the big G God, THEE source God, he is not born in space/time and his knowledge is not limited and is perfect.

2 questions

1. why would being inside our outside of space-time matter at all to overall IQ and level of knowledge?
2. what does it even mean, to exist "outside" of space-time? To exist furthermore, is a temporal state. So to "exist" outside of space-time, would be something like living "north" of the north pole. Or a married bachelor. It doesn't make sense.

Therefore, this being is not as simple as you may think. Hes not limited and his insight is fare deeper and greater then you can possibly imagine or fathom.

In my case, if this being wer to torture a soul for a crime, instead of just disagreeing with this being, id seek to understand why the need to torture forever. What kind of insight is this, you know? Again, wer talking about a being with perfect knowledge, not born in space/time.

So I'm just supposed to ignore my moral compass as well as my rationality, and just assume that this entity is "good" with the best intentions, eventhough all the evidence suggests the exact opposite?

Why would I do that?

And again, i dont believe God engages in eternal torture.

I don't even believe in God.
But it doesn't stop my to discuss it as a hypothetical.

Sure.

Cool.

So how do you differentiate between a douche god who just claims to be the very embodiment of everything that is good on the one hand, and an actual benevolent god on the other - if not by evaluating its behaviour in moral terms?

Because above, you seem to be saying that eventhough I recognise the stuff it does as being deeply immoral, I should simply "trust" that it's good and that I simply don't understand it or something....

No, you misunderstand because your looking at this too simple and with too much emotion.

No, I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone with a moral compass and some basic empathy.
When your point is that we should ignore our moral compass and just believe that this entity knows what is best, then that is LITERALLY sacrificing your moral compass by assertion of authority, which results in moral bankrupcy.

I dont believe God would torture someone forever. BUT IF(IF, IF) im wrong and he does. My response would not be "how dare you God!". It would be "wow, i was wrong? How can this be possible? God, tell me why, make me see what you see in this?"

Right. You would simply assume that you are wrong.
This is the problem.

Yes, if say someone kidnapped my wife, tortured and killed her and stole her wallet.
If i found that person, i would torture them longer then 15 minutes. Id remind them every second of what they did.

Which would be immoral.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I don't know whether God exists or not. I'm not going to "believe" it until I have sufficient, sound, rational justification. Otherwise it is just an unsupported possibility. There are plenty of those - many of which you, yourself don't believe in.

There's even a potentially infinite amount of those... Only really limited by people's imagination.

"There's an undetectable dragon following you around everywhere"

Making unverifiable, unfalsifiable claims is ridiculously easy.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

There's even a potentially infinite amount of those... Only really limited by people's imagination.

"There's an undetectable dragon following you around everywhere"

Making unverifiable, unfalsifiable claims is ridiculously easy.

You're absolutely correct, of course. My mind was just thinking more along the lines of ones that exist in practice already and have people who propagate them. Like "Bigfoot" or the "Loch Ness Monster" or various conspiracy theories or any other religious claim from the religions the poster doesn't believe are true.