Was Bahaullah a "Bahai", please?

[danieldemol]

Muhammad only faced towards Jerusalem, as a friendly gesture, cause he had great regards of many prophets/messengers buried there from the string of Isaac to link with Abraham-the father of prophets/messengers of God. But Muhammad himself was from the string of Ishmael, the elder son of Abraham. Muhammad never adopted the formal style of Jewish Prayer/Salat.
One is grossly mistaken in this connection, pleas. And one shall have to quote from Quran about Muhammad in support of one's view-point, please. Bahaullah or Abdul Baha or Shoghi Effendi and or UHJ might have given some wrong information in the matter, I am not aware of, please, never themselves having a firm understanding of Islam/Quran/Muhammad, and beating about the bush sometimes or most of the time, and not from G-d. Right, please?
My apologies for this straight talk . Peace, please!

Regards

I notice since I replied you edited your post to change the goal posts and introduce strawmen which I never said. Well played, even if a little disingenously and dishonestly so.

 

[shunyadragon]

Jesus was a follower of Moses and his teachings, and in this sense he was a Jew or a follower of Judaism, he remained as such throughout his life, though Judaism people of that time never supported him, and Paul a Jew also , was a deadly enemy of Jesus' and his followers . When Jesus migrated from Judea, and went out of it and the Roman rule, Paul could do nothing to quench his revenge from Jesus. Paul made a new plan and in the name of Jesus invented a new religion based on Pagan-Model and named it "Christianity" while it was another form of Paganism and nothing more thane that, and thus the wolf in sheep's clothing mislead the sheep, in the absence of the Shepard.
So, why should Jesus have to renounce Judaism, he never started a new religion. It is Paul/Church and their associates who founded "Christianity" unauthorized from Jesus. Jesus was never a Christian. Right, please?
Sorry my Christian friends, but it is what it is, nevertheless be firm on your faith with with reasons or without, it is a birth-right of the humans.

Regards

Your view of the history is not the issue;

He (Baha'u'llah) did not renounce Islam just as Christ and Muhammad did not renounce Judaism.

 

[paarsurrey]

Baha'u'llah is the mirror that reflects the Sun. Muhammad was a mirror that reflected the Sun, as was Christ and all the Messengers.

All the same Sun. They all stand by their Message given from Allah.



History has not really recorded what Muhammad practiced before the age of 40, this is one thought;

"There was a small group of monotheists present in Arabia on the eve of the rise of Islam. Its members did not worship idols, and they were the followers of the Prophet Abraham. The members of the families of Muhammad, the future prophet, and Ali ibn Abi Talib, the future caliph, and most members of their clan – the Banu Hashim – belonged to this group."

Most likely in tune with being a practicing Jew.



Proving a Messenger is of God, is also proving a founder of a Faith and as such, they are the first to practice that Faith.

Muhammad to me would be the first Muslim and will be the last Muslim. That to me also means Muhammad is the first of all Mesengers and will be the last of all Messengers. Thus I can say Muhammad was a follower of all Messengers.

Regards Tony

"Muhammad to me would be the first Muslim and will be the last Muslim."

There is nothing new in it, it is already mentioned in Quran:
AYAH al-An`am 6:163
Arabic

لَا شَرِيكَ لَهُ وَبِذَٰلِكَ أُمِرْتُ وَأَنَا أَوَّلُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ
Transliteration

La shareeka lahu wabithalika omirtu waana awwalu almuslimeena
Literal
(Word by Word) No partners for Him; and with that I have been commanded. And I am (the) first (of) the ones who surrender.
Sher Ali

HE * has no partner. And so I am commanded, and I am the first of those who submit.'
*God
John Medows Rodwell

He hath no associate. This am I commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims.
al-An`am 6:163

Is that sufficient or one needs more from Quran, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I notice since I replied you edited your post to change the goal posts and introduce strawmen which I never said. Well played, even if a little disingenously and dishonestly so.

Never-mind for the goal posts. And one can fix the goal-post where one is happy to fix them, please, feel free to reply the previous narrative of my post. Of course one has the option to feel free for a reply from my side also.
My intention was to elaborate the point for everybody. Right, please?
In case one has already replied, I will be please to attend to it. One will be happy to receive two replies.
And we are friends and no ill-will, please.

Regards

 

[loverofhumanity]

Bab was a Twelver Shia-Muslim all through his life as I understand from our friend @Komori in post #52 above , and Bab might have made some mistakes in understanding Islam, but that is just another topic. After-all he was just a human being and fallible. But don't overburden Bab with the errors, mistakes. blunders and
fallibilities of Bahaullah:
AYAH Fatir 35:18
Literal
(Word by Word) And not will bear bearer of burdens burden (of) another. And if calls a heavily laden to (carry) its load, not will be carried of it anything even if he be near of kin. Only you can warn those who fear their Lord - unseen and establish the prayer. And whoever purifies himself, then only he purifies for his own self. And to Allah (is) the destination.
Sher Ali

And no burdened soul can bear the burden of another; and if a heavily laden soul call another to bear its load, naught of it shall be carried by the other, even though he be a kinsman. Thou canst warn only those who fear their Lord in secret and observe Prayer, And whoso purifies himself, purifies himself only to his own good; and to ALLAH shall be the return.
Fatir 35:18

Sorry to the friends who follow Bahaullah , and sorry for Bahaullah as well, please. Alas! Bahaullah should have committed his mistakes within Islam as did Bab.

Regards

It is the Baha’i belief that all the Messengers Of God were Perfect Beings both physically and spiritually, infallible and all knowing and that They did not make mistakes.

This I believe apples to all the Prophets such as Jesus, Muhammad and more recently the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

Christians say Muhammad is not a true Prophet and was not mentioned in the Bible but in many passages we believe He was mentioned and the Quran says in 61:6

6 And [remember] when Jesus son of Mary said, “O Children of Israel! Truly I am the Messenger of God unto you, confirming that which came before me in the Torah and bearing glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me whose name is Aḥmad.”

So although Christians reject this verse in the Quran that the name Muhammad IS mentioned in the Bible we believe it is true. The same with the Bab and Baha’u’llah. We believe They had perfect knowledge from God and we’re like Muhammad but people will reject too just like people rejected Muhammad.

So rejection doesn’t mean it’s untrue. Rejection is a common sentiment of human beings towards new Messengers. Always new Messengers are judged as wrong. Muhammad was stoned in Ta’if caused a Him immense sorrow but He was still a Prophet.

Peace to you.

 

[shunyadragon]

First of all Bahaullah should stand on its own, he claimed to be Sun, he should not try to stand on the shoulders of Judaism. Right, please?

No, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and the Baha'i Faith would be a continuum. Muhammad acknowledged the Revelation of Abraham and Moses and the continuum His Revelation.

Secondly Muhammad never was a Jew . If yes, please quote his claim from Quran in this connection. Right, please?

I never said Muhammad was a Jew. Muhammad acknowledge Jesus Christ as a prophet. Unless you are denying he was the Christ.

Thirdly it is off-topic, please. Right, please?,but never-mind, we are in a friendly mode.

Incoherent to say the least, and you did not answer the question. Not off topic at all. Muhammad believed in the God of Judaism and the sacred scripture of the Pentateuch and His Revelation as a continuum of God's Revelation for humanity.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Muhammad to me would be the first Muslim and will be the last Muslim."

There is nothing new in it, it is already mentioned in Quran:
AYAH al-An`am 6:163
Arabic

لَا شَرِيكَ لَهُ وَبِذَٰلِكَ أُمِرْتُ وَأَنَا أَوَّلُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ
Transliteration

La shareeka lahu wabithalika omirtu waana awwalu almuslimeena
Literal
(Word by Word) No partners for Him; and with that I have been commanded. And I am (the) first (of) the ones who surrender.
Sher Ali

HE * has no partner. And so I am commanded, and I am the first of those who submit.'
*God
John Medows Rodwell

He hath no associate. This am I commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims.
al-An`am 6:163

Is that sufficient or one needs more from Quran, please?

Regards

I have no issue with this, I see it is also applicable to the Bab and Baha'u'llah, so the question is, is that sufficient for your needs?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, why should Jesus have to renounce Judaism, he never started a new religion. It is Paul/Church and their associates who founded "Christianity" unauthorized from Jesus. Jesus was never a Christian. Right, please?

Jesus was a fulfillment of past scriptures. Jesus Christ offered further guidance and promised to return. Jesus Christ did say that it was upon the rock of Peters Faith that the Church will be built upon. Thus the Catholic Church can with some authority, albeit not fully clear, state they have attempted to follow Jesus Christs Covenant. Jesus was the first example of a perfect Christian.

Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

Do Christians have monopoly on loving Jesus? If yes who issued a license to it, please?

Regards

No

 

[paarsurrey]

Was Bahaullah a "Bahai", please?

danieldemol said: ↑
Do you deny that Muhammad used to pray with the Jews facing Jerusalem before the changing of the Quiblah?

Friend @danieldemol , please!

Does one mean the above post one complained about the goal-posted widened, please?

I one wants a shorter reply it is here:

Muhammad never, emphasize never, prayed the Formal/Salat with the Jews. Is that OK, please?
If he did, as one thinks, then kindly quote from Quran, please.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Never-mind for the goal posts. And one can fix the goal-post where one is happy to fix them, please, feel free to reply the previous narrative of my post. Of course one has the option to feel free for a reply from my side also.
My intention was to elaborate the point for everybody. Right, please?
In case one has already replied, I will be please to attend to it. One will be happy to receive two replies.
And we are friends and no ill-will, please.

Regards

Friend @Tony Bristow-Stagg! Thanks for rating my above post as "friendly".

Regards

 

[shunyadragon]

Was Bahaullah a "Bahai", please?

danieldemol said: ↑
Do you deny that Muhammad used to pray with the Jews facing Jerusalem before the changing of the Quiblah?

Friend @danieldemol , please!

Does one mean the above post one complained about the goal-posted widened, please?

I one wants a shorter reply it is here:

Muhammad never, emphasize never, prayed the Formal/Salat with the Jews. Is that OK, please?
If he did, as one thinks, then kindly quote from Quran, please.

Regards

The question was never whether Muhammad prayed with the Jews. Who said that? Muhammad acknowledged The Torah including the Pentateuch, and the Psalms as the word of God, yet prescribed different Obligatory Prayers than Jewish scripture.

The goal posts have widened and danced around the playing field on your part.

 

[danieldemol]

The question was never whether Muhammad prayed with the Jews. Who said that? Muhammad acknowledged The Pentateuch and Jewish scripture as the word of God, yet prescribed different Obligatory Prayers than Jewish scripture.

The goal posts have widened and danced around the playing field on your part.

Actually an apology is due on my part, I said that Muhammad prayed with the Jews

 

[shunyadragon]

Actually an apology is due on my part, I said that Muhammad prayed with the Jews

He may have, but there is no record of this.

 

[paarsurrey]

danieldemol said: ↑
Actually an apology is due on my part, I said that Muhammad prayed with the Jews

He may have, but there is no record of this.

No, Muhammad never prayed/Salat as do the Jews . Please accept what is true, but there is no compulsion whatsoever.
Never-mind, I understand it is against the norms of a follower of Bahaullah, normally.
Our friend @danieldemol is different, he is liberal, whatever it means.

Regards

 

[shunyadragon]

danieldemol said: ↑
Actually an apology is due on my part, I said that Muhammad prayed with the Jews



No, Muhammad never prayed/Salat as do the Jews . Please accept what is true, but there is no compulsion whatsoever.
Never-mind, I understand it is against the norms of a follower of Bahaullah, normally.
Our friend @danieldemol is different, he is liberal, whatever it means.

Regards

I never said that Muhammad ever prayed as do the Jews. Reread my posts and respond correctly if you have the reading comprehension.

 

[paarsurrey]

I have no issue with this, I see it is also applicable to the Bab and Baha'u'llah, so the question is, is that sufficient for your needs?

Regards Tony

Bahaullah never said that he was a "First Bahai". Did he, please?
If yes, please quote from him from Iqan, his concepts book.
I understand that perhaps followers of Bahaullah are ahead or stronger followers of Bahaism than Bahaullah was himself. Bahaullah never claimed that he was "First Bahai", yet his followers here say he was a "First Bahai", it suggests that now Bahaullah is to follow the Bahaism people and likewise, perhaps, the UHJ also instead of they following Bahaullah.
Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I never said that Muhammad ever prayed as do the Jews. Reread my posts and respond correctly if you have the reading comprehension.

If one never said, then it is OK, my apologies man.

Regards

 

[shunyadragon]

If one never said, then it is OK, my apologies man.

Regards

You still need to answer and address the questions I presented.

 

[paarsurrey]

142. The fools among the people will say: "What hath turned them from the Qiblah to which they were used?" Say: to Allah belong both East and West; He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.

143. Thus have We made of you an Ummah justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qiblah to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (from the faith). Indeed it was (a change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.

144. We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens; now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction.
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali translation), Surah 2:142-144)

Notice that the people said when Muhammad turned mid-prayer from facing Jerusalem, "What hath turned them from the Qiblah to which they were used?" They were used to facing Jerusalem. Of course this is a historical fact independant of the Quran.

From Qibla - Wikipedia

According to the traditional Muslim view, the Qiblah in the Islamic prophet Muhammad's time was originally the Noble Sanctuary in the city of Jerusalem, similar to Judaism.[1][4] This Qiblah was used for over 13 years, from 610 CE until 623 CE. Seventeen months after Muhammad's 622 CE arrival in Medina – the date is given as 11 February 624 – the Qiblah became oriented towards the Kaaba in Mecca.[5][6] According to traditional accounts from Muhammad's companions, the change happened very suddenly during the noon prayer in Medina, in a mosque now known as Masjid al-Qiblaṫayn (Arabic: مَـسْـجِـد الْـقِـبْـلَـتَـيْـن‎, "Mosque of the Two Qiblahs").[6] Muhammad was leading the prayer when he received revelations from God instructing him to take the Kaaba as the Qiblah (literally, "Turn then Thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque.").[6][7] According to the traditional accounts contained in the hadith and sira, Muhammad, who had been facing Jerusalem, upon receiving this revelation, immediately turned around to face Mecca, and those praying behind him also did so.[6]

1 Hartsock, Ralph (2014-08-27). "The temple of Jerusalem: past, present, and future". Jewish Culture and History. 16 (2): 199–201. doi:10.1080/1462169X.2014.953832.
4 Mustafa Abu Sway, The Holy Land, Jerusalem and Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Qur’an, Sunnah and other Islamic Literary Source (PDF), Central Conference of American Rabbis, archived from the original (PDF) on 2011-07-28
5 In the Lands of the Prophet, Time-Life, p. 29
6 William Montgomery Watt (7 February 1974). Muhammad: prophet and statesman. Oxford University Press. pp. 112–113. ISBN 978-0-19-881078-0. Retrieved 29 December 2011.
7 Sura 2 (Al-Baqara), ayah 144, Quran 2:144

The above write-up does not state that Muhammad was praying/Salat as the Judaism people did. Perhaps I missed something, if so please highlight it. Right, please?

Regards