Why I Could Never Be a Christian (or Muslim)

[loverofhumanity]

Respect - yes

Accept - no

There is a huge difference - brush up on it if you will

Can you clarify as I’m reading different things?

Islam and Sikhism - Wikipedia

Sikhism accepts that there were divine messengers, including Krishna, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed in other religions.[5]

So kindly forgive me as I have been thinking and speaking to you according to above reference that your religion accepts past faiths but found it odd when you appeared so indifferent.

So you reject all the Prophets of God? It says you accept not just respect them???

 

[ManSinha]

Can you clarify as I’m reading different things?

Islam and Sikhism - Wikipedia

Sikhism accepts that there were divine messengers, including Krishna, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed in other religions.[5]

So kindly forgive me as I have been thinking and speaking to you according to above reference that your religion accepts past faiths but found it odd when you appeared so indifferent.

So you reject all the Prophets of God? It says you accept not just respect them???

They were the divine messengers for people of those faiths - not for the Sikh community - there is a difference again - let me explain with an example

Jesus was a prophet / messenger for the Christian community - a person that was in all probability a holy person dedicated to educating individuals about the truth and the way for a good decent life.
Same with the others you have named

Remember according to Jesus - no others are to be accepted - they are regarded as false prophets
Same with Muhammad who said he was the last prophet of Allah

Therein lies the difference - the Vedas / OT and Torah are all regarded as having elements of the truth

But the Sikh community will only bow its head to the SGGS and no other container of knowledge - that is the rule

"Sab Sikhan ko hukam hai - guru maanyio granth" - that is it

No one - not even our own 10 Masters were god - in fact the 10th Master said it explicitly - there is one Universal Truth / Light - indescribable and formless - beyond our understanding - pervading the entire universe. This entity has no sons or daughters or grandchildren and does not interact. IOW "the Lord commanded me to" - is hogwash.

Also - there is no prophecy in the core holy texts - if the ultimate truth is unknowable - it is foolish to expect to be able to predict anything out of the ordinary. There are no miracles. There is no heaven and no hell.

 

[loverofhumanity]

They were the divine messengers for people of those faiths - not for the Sikh community - there is a difference again - let me explain with an example

Jesus was a prophet / messenger for the Christian community - a person that was in all probability a holy person dedicated to educating individuals about the truth and the way for a good decent life.
Same with the others you have named

Remember according to Jesus - no others are to be accepted - they are regarded as false prophets
Same with Muhammad who said he was the last prophet of Allah

Therein lies the difference - the Vedas / OT and Torah are all regarded as having elements of the truth

But the Sikh community will only bow its head to the SGGS and no other container of knowledge - that is the rule

"Sab Sikhan ko hukam hai - guru maanyio granth" - that is it

No one - not even our own 10 Masters were god - in fact the 10th Master said it explicitly - there is one Universal Truth / Light - indescribable and formless - beyond our understanding - pervading the entire universe. This entity has no sons or daughters or grandchildren and does not interact. IOW "the Lord commanded me to" - is hogwash.

Also - there is no prophecy in the core holy texts - if the ultimate truth is unknowable - it is foolish to expect to be able to predict anything out of the ordinary. There are no miracles. There is no heaven and no hell.

I found this quote in your Holy Book

Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.

Any suggested readings?

One question. Do you believe God is free to do as He pleases or does your idea of God say that He is restricted to what you believe He can do? In other words is your belief in God conditional on God being and doing what you believe He can do or is He free to do as He pleases?

That is very important because if you say God is restricted then how can He be God as I understand God to be unrestrained?

And if God is unrestrained how can you say He can’t send Messengers and didn’t and how can you stop Him or restrain Him from sending more Messengers if it is His Wish?

So are you dictating what God can and can’t do or do you accept that God, if it be His Wish can send Baha’u’llah or any Messenger He wishes? Or is He restrained and His Hands tied from doing so even if He wishes? Is He confined to doing only what you agree He can do? Is God free to do things even against your wishes?

 

[ManSinha]

One question. Do you believe God is free to do as He pleases or does your idea of God say that He is restricted to what you believe He can do? In other words is your belief in God conditional on God being and doing what you believe He can do or is He free to do as He pleases?

The question is irrelevant - god does not interact with the mortal world - while this entity may be free to do what it pleases - that is not my concept of god in the first place - so the question is off base -

there is one Universal Truth / Light - indescribable and formless

I found this quote in your Holy Book

Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.

You are quoting back to me what I already told you a second ago - where do you think I got it from?

Nobody is stopping anyone or anything - you are free to believe whatever you want - I have said that over and over - this is where personal judgment comes in - anyone who invokes being a re incarnation of others where those others to a single entity - do not recognize that fact is questionable at best.

Remember - none of those who you listed claimed to be XYZ returned -

So are you dictating what God can and can’t do or do you accept that God, if it be His Wish can send Baha’u’llah or any Messenger He wishes? Or is He restrained and His Hands tied from doing so even if He wishes? Is He confined to doing only what you agree He can do? Is God free to do things even against your wishes?

You are coming up with this idea that god this and god that - well my "god" does not interfere - so the question does not arise - fundamental difference in beliefs between the abrahamic god and the dharmic idea of the divine.

Get out of your abrahamic god mind set - go read up on Adwaita Vedanta and Dwaita Vedanta and Samkhya - if you have the courage and openness of mind - then come back and we can discuss and debate all you want

Until then I am done "talking" to you - we are talking at cross purposes where I feel you are trying to twist things to fit your narrow mind set - let's just leave it at that

 

[loverofhumanity]

The question is irrelevant - god does not interact with the mortal world - while this entity may be free to do what it pleases - that is not my concept of god in the first place - so the question is off base -






You are quoting back to me what I already told you a second ago - where do you think I got it from?

Nobody is stopping anyone or anything - you are free to believe whatever you want - I have said that over and over - this is where personal judgment comes in - anyone who invokes being a re incarnation of others where those others to a single entity - do not recognize that fact is questionable at best.

Remember - none of those who you listed claimed to be XYZ returned -



You are coming up with this idea that god this and god that - well my "god" does not interfere - so the question does not arise - fundamental difference in beliefs between the abrahamic god and the dharmic idea of the divine.

I’m trying to understand thanks for your explanation.

If God does not interact with the mortal world then how do you know God exists? If God allowed Himself to be known then only one could know He existed so isn’t that interaction?

Otherwise if God never interacted or made Himself to be known then you could not know He exists. So at some point God must have allowed people to know of Him. Which is interaction isn’t it?

 

[ManSinha]

I’m trying to understand thanks for your explanation.

If God does not interact with the mortal world then how do you know God exists? If God allowed Himself to be known then only one could know He existed so isn’t that interaction?

Otherwise if God never interacted or made Himself to be known then you could not know He exists. So at some point God must have allowed people to know of Him. Which is interaction isn’t it?

All this time on RF and you do not yet know the meaning of faith? I believe on faith - I do not ask for proof - like with countless people all over the world - this is a personal belief - not objective and not subject to scientific methods.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Your questions are basically, how do i know my views are true?

To be general and to the point, heres how.

1, intelligent design.
2, NDEs, aspeasally the veridical NDEs.
3, remote viewing or ESPs.
4. Apparitions
5, miracle testimony.

You deny these, but very unjustifiably.

That was not, at all, my original question(s).

You said this:

You would hate that which created you? And if this God did torture rebels in hell forever, you think youd know better then him, a mere ant in comparison in mind and size?

And I said the following (in red):

The relative size or intelligence/knowledge of a being makes no difference on its ability to discern what it believes is right from wrong. Two questions to easily put this idea into perspective:

1. Do you always make sure you are more intelligent or knowledgeable or "larger in size" than someone, or something you make a judgment about?
2. If an alien race with vastly superior technology showed up and judged humanity as unworthy of life would you accept their judgment of us, and just lay down and die before their might?

THOSE are the two questions. Labeled "1." and "2." above. Are you willing to answer them?

 

[Muffled]

I am technically agnostic about the claims of Christianity and Islam. I don't know if they are true or not, but of course I think they are highly unlikely to be true. But even if someone could convince me that one of these religions were true, I still would not convert to either of them. For instance, even if I were convinced with 100% certainty that Jesus died and rose from the dead, I still could not be a Christian. Similarly, even if I were convinced with 100% certainty that Mohammed was a prophet of God, I could not be a Muslim. Here is why:

In order to be a Christian or Muslim, it is not only belief that is necessary. It is also required that the adherents genuinely love the god of the religion. And given that the Christian and Muslim gods are said to send non-adherents to hell, where they are tortured for eternity, I could never love the god of Christianity, or the god of Islam. Now it is quite easy to pretend to love a god out of fear of the god. For instance, if the Christian or Muslim god was not all-knowing and could not see my motives, it is possible that I would worship and obey it out of fear for my own well-being, while deep down I would hate it, in much the same way as a prisoner of war or slave would worship and obey its captor while still hating him deep down. However, these acts of worship would be entirely fake, and an all-knowing god could see right through them. There is absolutely no amount of mental gymnastics, or BS rationalizing about "justice" and "sins against a perfect god" that I could ever do to get myself to love a god that tortures people forever. If such a being existed, I would hate it deeply, passionately, and with every fiber of my being, and that being would see right through my actions and know that I hate it. So, even if a case could be made that the claims of Christianity or Islam were true, I could never be a Christian or Muslim, because I would hate the god.

How would you feel about a policeman who kept you from being killed by killing the person trying to kill you? You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want a world without evil then those who love evil can't be in it. If you are ok with evil then you must be prepared to suffer at the hands of those who do evil.

 

[Muffled]

@Hubert Farnsworth

I do not know where you are headed with this thread - but your beliefs would be supported by the Yoga philosophy of Samkhya. it is based mainly off of reasoning and inference and does not find a place for a god figure

Samkhya deals with consciousness and matter and beautifully (in my opinion) explains a significant part of how we live and interact in this world

I believe that sounds pretty useless to me.

 

[Muffled]

Where does the Bible state that humans get tortured forever?

Not that I am advocating Christianity, but some Christians tell me that eternal torture for humans is not in the Bible. I mean if that is the only thing keeping you from being a Christian.

Revelations does state something about the truly wicked, that refuse to repent from their evil way being burnt away to ash. Maybe that's instant, just poof out of existence. I assume that's after given every possible chance to repent.

I believe that is incorrect. However eternal can simply mean timeless despite my pastors opinion to the contrary.

 

[1213]

Mark 9:43

2 Peter 2:4

Mark 9:45

Matthew 18:9...

Ok, thanks. Interesting thing is, none of them says “God tortures people”. Makes me wonder what are you doing in your mind.


If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having your two hands to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:43

For if God didn't spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved to judgment;
2 Peter 2:4

If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame, rather than having your two feet to be cast into Gehenna, into the fire that will never be quenched-
Mark 9:45

If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire.
Matthew 18:9

 

[ManSinha]

rather than having your two hands to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:43

For if God didn't spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved to judgment;
2 Peter 2:4

Who created the "unquenchable fire"? The reading seems pretty straightforward to me - why don't you explain it from your perspective if you feel differently?

 

[Rational Agnostic]

How would you feel about a policeman who kept you from being killed by killing the person trying to kill you?

I'm not even going to explain why this analogy fails, because it is so obvious. Try to figure it out.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

And your point was?

Essentially, my point is that I couldn't love the God of traditional Christianity, even if it existed, which it almost certainly does not.

 

[Jollybear]

That was not, at all, my original question(s).

You said this:



And I said the following (in red):

The relative size or intelligence/knowledge of a being makes no difference on its ability to discern what it believes is right from wrong. Two questions to easily put this idea into perspective:

1. Do you always make sure you are more intelligent or knowledgeable or "larger in size" than someone, or something you make a judgment about?

Gods size is not what makes him right. Its his perfect knowledge and wisdom that does

If an alien race with vastly superior technology showed up and judged humanity as unworthy of life would you accept their judgment of us, and just lay down and die before their might?
THOSE are the two questions. Labeled "1." and "2." above. Are you willing to answer them?

A alien race with vast technology would still not have perfect knowledge and wisdom as a eternal, supreme source of the universe type being would.

That said, i dont believe hell is eternal torture. I do believe in hell though.

 

[Kenny]

Essentially, my point is that I couldn't love the God of traditional Christianity, even if it existed, which it almost certainly does not.

OK. It is your right as a free will spiritual agent.

 

[Vinayaka]

I’m trying to understand thanks for your explanation.

If God does not interact with the mortal world then how do you know God exists? If God allowed Himself to be known then only one could know He existed so isn’t that interaction?

Otherwise if God never interacted or made Himself to be known then you could not know He exists. So at some point God must have allowed people to know of Him. Which is interaction isn’t it?

My God doesn't interact with me either. I have an atheist friend who came to the temple a long time ago. His first question the next day, or maybe there, was, "Does your religion believe in or bring out some kind of energy?" I just smiled. What he called 'energy' I call God.

 

[Enoch07]

I am technically agnostic about the claims of Christianity and Islam. I don't know if they are true or not, but of course I think they are highly unlikely to be true. But even if someone could convince me that one of these religions were true, I still would not convert to either of them. For instance, even if I were convinced with 100% certainty that Jesus died and rose from the dead, I still could not be a Christian. Similarly, even if I were convinced with 100% certainty that Mohammed was a prophet of God, I could not be a Muslim. Here is why:

In order to be a Christian or Muslim, it is not only belief that is necessary. It is also required that the adherents genuinely love the god of the religion. And given that the Christian and Muslim gods are said to send non-adherents to hell, where they are tortured for eternity, I could never love the god of Christianity, or the god of Islam. Now it is quite easy to pretend to love a god out of fear of the god. For instance, if the Christian or Muslim god was not all-knowing and could not see my motives, it is possible that I would worship and obey it out of fear for my own well-being, while deep down I would hate it, in much the same way as a prisoner of war or slave would worship and obey its captor while still hating him deep down. However, these acts of worship would be entirely fake, and an all-knowing god could see right through them. There is absolutely no amount of mental gymnastics, or BS rationalizing about "justice" and "sins against a perfect god" that I could ever do to get myself to love a god that tortures people forever. If such a being existed, I would hate it deeply, passionately, and with every fiber of my being, and that being would see right through my actions and know that I hate it. So, even if a case could be made that the claims of Christianity or Islam were true, I could never be a Christian or Muslim, because I would hate the god.

You probably resent your parents for punishing you as a child and not giving you everything you ever wanted as well?

That's an exaggeration of course. But that's how your argument come off.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Gods size is not what makes him right. Its his perfect knowledge and wisdom that does.

A alien race with vast technology would still not have perfect knowledge and wisdom as a eternal, supreme source of the universe type being would.

There is still a huge problem with this line of thinking, which is that you expect you can know that God has "perfect knowledge and wisdom." You have absolutely no way to verify this. You must realize that there are only a couple ways you came to this opinion:

1. Someone else told you that God's knowledge and wisdom are perfect, and you accepted it.
2. You read that God's wisdom and knowledge are perfect within The Bible, and you accepted it.
3. God Himself told you that His wisdom and knowledge are perfect, and you accepted it.

But several things thwart all of those:

1. You aren't God, and so you can't know what it is like to possess His level of wisdom and knowledge
2. Even then, you don't have any standard or example of perfect wisdom and knowledge in order to be able to compare
3. And finally, you have no way of examining God in the first place, in order to even attempt a comparison

Can we just "take God's word for it?" Can we take people's word for it that the words they are speaking/writing come "from God?" Is there any way to verify the truth of claims like these?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

In Christian theology, if the demons know that Jesus is saviour &c. then yes, they believe it, they just don't care. If it's their lack of so-called Christian qualities that makes them non-Christians then that's up to an individual I suppose, but these demons supposedly still know the truth and are, for whatever reason, only acting contrary to it, not disbelieving it. Just as you could say, I hate the Moon, or, The Moon has no significance to my life, but the Moon will still be there.

The difference being that the moon demonstrably is there. Which can't be said for any god, demon or other supernatural supposedly existing entity.