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CAUGHT UP IN THE AIR? RAPTURE OR WHAT?

Muffled

Jesus in me
In reality, that's about all any of us can do.

I believe the call goes out " with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God." So that means a response is required. Mat. 24 talks about gathering people so that could constitute instructions for gathering.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I entered Christianity in 1974, by the efforts of two American Sunday School Union Missionaries, who attended a Community Church, Pastored by a Man who was essentially a Baptist. I'd read a book called 'The Late Great Planet Earth' ostensibly by Hal Lindsey. There was a quarrel over his Authorship. That book pushed things like the Rapture and so forth.

These days, the shine if gone off all that for me, so keep my own counsel as to my worship. Sadly, as I have witnessed, doctrine is largely determined by the largest contributor. I do not know if the same occurs in Islam and other beliefs, but since there are humans present I assume so. In one place I attended the Pastor, who became my friend, said they attended classes about collections of published sermons and told which ones to use, and what subjects were likely to 'empty the Pews', and when to preach on Tithing.

Published and accepted religion seems full of Saccharine to me, so to the "Abrahamic Belief" for me at this time, though Shia Islam has my attention right now. Basically, for me, Islam would be perfect were it not for the presence of some angry and twisted humans. Lacking a basic understanding of Anthropology, and the even very basic understanding of the evolution of Languages they insist on a very narrow, and limiting interpretation of the identity of Allah SWT, and of the one called Isa PBUH (Jesus to Christians). That some Muslims would murder those who see him as the Son of God, dramatically undermines my estimation of their credibility. It seems to me that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam would be almost the same, or at least complementary if there was not this 'blown out of perspective' conflict about the identity of one man, and a silly, shameful conflict it is.

There is another system that insists that God is flesh and bone, which demonstrates to me the lack of a basic understanding of the identity of the creator. There is not Autobiography of God out there. He will more fully define himself when he wishes to do that. There are stone engravings all over the planet that depict who the ancients 'thought' God was.

Thankfully, the one I know as Allah SWT does not murder anyone for lack of understanding, and has been utterly kind to me over what at times feels like an overly long lifespan. Humans and their twisted ways have been the source of the pain I have felt in life. However those who were cruel in my life have been used by God to teach me to cry out to him, and to seek understanding of him, and to be as obedient as I know how. Alhumduallah.

I believe I have read Hal Lindsey's book and seen him on TV talking about it. I don't agree with everything but then most of it is about Revelations which is a difficult book.

I believe Islam can't save you since it requires you to save yourself and only Jesus saves.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
None of those scriptures desctibe rapture. This is another reason I did not want to join with a regular Baptist church, the bible does not teach the rapture its a fantasy that Christians use to make stupid movies with , rapture movies. I forget the name of the popular ones yall know which ones the ones that scared me when I was a kid.But its not true and infact the new testament says Jesus will come back to earth and reign 1000 years sorry.

I believe that means you are not able to read with comprehension.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
I believe the scripture speaks for itself. So the idea that it is for weak minded people is not an argument that the scripture is incorrect only an argument for a person not liking what it says.


The 7th Day Advenstists and the Primitive Baptists teach there is no sich thing as the rapture, the word is not in the bible. There are whole entire denominations which disagree and teach against it, so i am not alone.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
"...The word rapture does not actually appear in the Bible. People have pieced various passages together to come to the idea of the rapture, but Swedenborg learned that these texts were symbolic rather than literal.

It’s also worth remembering that, according to Swedenborg, the Bible was written both for people on earth and people in the world of spirits. That means that some of the things described actually refer to events that would happen in the spiritual world rather than to us on Earth."

Swedenborg and Life Recap: 10 Questions: Divine Human, Intoxication, and the Rapture – 8/28/2017 – Swedenborg Foundation

Debbie Harry aka Blondie brought rap music into the mainstream pop culture with her song "Rapture" recorded in 1980.

 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
This place in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 has been the subject of debate in eschatological circles. For futurists and dispensationalists this is one of the most relied places when it comes to the theory and teaching of the rapture.

As always context is king. Quoting scriptures is not enough to teach sound doctrine. Understanding the original audience and the context is paramount to interpreting the meaning. We have been separated from the original audience by thousands of years, by culture, history and language. By comparing Scripture with Scripture, we can get a good idea of the authors original intent which will lead us to accuracy of interpretation.

It was invented by John Nelson Darby in 1830 but was made popular in America by theScofield Reference Bible and following elaborate End Time event charts published by Clarence Larkin. By the twentieth century, the “physical rapture” of the Church became a dominant eschatological view in Charismatic circles. It is barely 200 years since it has been propagated as none in the early church history taught in this direction.

Since Israel became a nation in 1948 many endtime prophecies have been built on her being the calendar for events to conclude the end of the world. As many prophets declared that the generation that saw her return to the land would be the terminal one. Edgar C. Whisenant wrote a book,88 Reasons Why the Rapture Is in 1988. After having sold Six million copies of his work he caused quite a stir in the Christian community with several having to resign their jobs and some sold their homes.

Just like many who have written books, movies and other materials we have seen a plethora of failed prophecies of Jesus returning to snatch saints from the earth physically.

We must first understand that when Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians, he was writing to Thessalonian Christians who lived in the first century. This same people where undergoing severe persecution from their Jewish brethren and the Roman community for their faith. They were expecting the return of the Lord in their time and knew that their present persecution was an indicator of his soon return in their time.

This is how Paul starts;

2 We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers; 3 constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love anda steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father, 4 knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you; 5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we c]'>[c]proved to be among you for your sake. 6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit, 7 so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia.

9 For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God,10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from THE WRATH to come. (1 Thessalonians 1)

He then in continues;

14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same SUFFERINGS at the hands of your own COUNTRYMEN, even as they did from THE JEWS, 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But WRATH has come upon them to the utmost. (1 Thessalonians 2)

He sends Timothy to them to encourage them in their trying moments;

2 and we sent Timothy, our brother and God’s fellow worker in the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and ENCOURAGE YOU AS TO YOUR FAITH,3 so that no one would be adisturbed by these AFFLICTIONS; for you yourselves know that we have been destined for this. 4 For indeed when we were with you, we kept telling you in advance that we were going to SUFFER AFFLICTION; and so it came to pass, as you know. 5 For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter might have tempted you, and our labor would be in vain.” (1 Thessalonians 3)

Jesus spoke about this in Luke 21

16 But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, 17 and you will be hated by all because of My name. 18 Yet not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your k]'>[k]lives.”

Then he proceeds to give them hope;

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep k]'>[k]in Jesus.” (1 Thessalonians 4)

So who are those who sleep in Jesus? They are those who lost their lives on earth for their faith. He describes them as asleep because he knew of the promise of resurrection at the return of the Lord Jesus when he came in judgment over that Old covenant age. They would wake up to life immortality and they would be raised incorruptible while those alive physically being changed spiritually would go from their physical body to their celestial body after death on earth and not be kept in hades.
Paul taught that the resurrection was “about to happen” in his day:
Acts 24:15 (NKJV)
“I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be (mello -about to be) a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.
The resurrection of the dead was to fulfil the promise made to their fathers which they eagerly expected. That was their hope.

Acts 26:6-8 (NKJV)
“And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7 “To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope’s sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews. 8 “Why should it be thought incredible by you that God raises the dead?


When was this expected? You can see it from the language and tenses he uses;

1 Thessalonians 2:19 (NKJV)
For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?


2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 (NKJV)
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us….


This return was to fulfil simultaneously fulfil some events that would clearly mark the end of that former age. The resurrection being made at the arrival of God’s kingdom at the expense of that former temple being burnt down.

The Thessalonians believers will be given rest from their enemies when the Lord returns in His second coming. If this did not happen in their lifetime, then Paul gave them false hope in deceit. Moreover there is no way a rapture fits in this discourse.


Now let’s consider three important Greek words in 1 Thessalonians 4:17:
1. HARPAZO – “Caught up”
2. APANTESIS – “meet”
3. AER – “air”,

The word HARPAZO does not necessarily mean physical removal. It can mean “to seize on, claim for one’s self.” The other time we see this word was by Paul himself in 2 Corinthians 12:2-6 when he tells how he caught up to the third heaven. The experience is not quite clear as it unfolded by he could only explain it as a trance and not as a physical relocation.

continued

CAUGHT UP IN THE AIR? RAPTURE OR WHAT? - Residentkingdom


What is the correct Hebrew translation for
Air.
In the Strong's concordance and the Companion bible the correct Hebrew translation for air is Ruach which means
Spirit.
Therefore 1 Thessalonians 4:17--"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"

This would actually read, meet the Lord in the Spirit.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
"...The word rapture does not actually appear in the Bible. People have pieced various passages together to come to the idea of the rapture, but Swedenborg learned that these texts were symbolic rather than literal.

It’s also worth remembering that, according to Swedenborg, the Bible was written both for people on earth and people in the world of spirits. That means that some of the things described actually refer to events that would happen in the spiritual world rather than to us on Earth."

Swedenborg and Life Recap: 10 Questions: Divine Human, Intoxication, and the Rapture – 8/28/2017 – Swedenborg Foundation

Debbie Harry aka Blondie brought rap music into the mainstream pop culture with her song "Rapture" recorded in 1980.


LOVE THE SONG! I love Blondie!
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Exactly.. the Rapture teaches Christians will escape the tribulation by being caught up to heaven. But Jesus said flee to the mountains to avoid the tribulation.

You do know that there are two tribulations.
And that Christ Jesus gave the last Prophecy in his book of Revelation, That before Christ Jesus can return this last prophecy has to happen first

And when this last prophecy happens the tribulation is over and then Christ Jesus returns.
And not before this last prophecy happens that Christ Jesus gave in his book of Revelation happens first.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Exactly.. the Rapture teaches Christians will escape the tribulation by being caught up to heaven. But Jesus said flee to the mountains to avoid the tribulation.

Not all Christians believe in the Rapture, only the false Christians believe in the Rapture.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
But wait: those days are cut short, so flesh will be saved....get it?

Did you know that Christ Jesus foretold in his book of Revelation by how much the days of the Tribulation would be cut to
5 Months.
Did you also know that Christ Jesus gave in his book of Revelation the last Prophecy that is to happen, That Christ Jesus can not return until the last Prophecy happens first.
That when the last Prophecy happens the tribulation is over and then Christ Jesus returns.
But not until the last Prophecy happens first.

So what good is the Rapture going to do, seeing when the last Prophecy happens the tribulation is over and then Christ Jesus returns.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Not all Christians believe in the Rapture, only the false Christians believe in the Rapture.

LOLOL

The Rapture: A Popular but False Doctrine | United Church ...
www.ucg.orgWorld News and Prophecy

There were also amillennialists in Darby’s day. He labored to correct both false teachings. Darby believed, rightly, that Jesus Christ would return to earth to establish and rule over the Kingdom of God. Darby was a premillennialist. But in his zeal for countering error, he added another—the rapture

The rapture, often called "the blessed hope," is sadly more hoax than hope, even though the man who started it had no intention of deceiving anyone. You need to know what the Bible actually says!

The rapture was popularized in the 1970s by Hal Lindsey’s writings ( The Late Great Planet Earth, etc.) and more recently by Jim Jenkins and Tim LaHaye in their Left Behind fictional books and films. But where did the idea of the rapture originate?

The origin of the rapture theory
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
LOLOL

The Rapture: A Popular but False Doctrine | United Church ...
www.ucg.orgWorld News and Prophecy

There were also amillennialists in Darby’s day. He labored to correct both false teachings. Darby believed, rightly, that Jesus Christ would return to earth to establish and rule over the Kingdom of God. Darby was a premillennialist. But in his zeal for countering error, he added another—the rapture

The rapture, often called "the blessed hope," is sadly more hoax than hope, even though the man who started it had no intention of deceiving anyone. You need to know what the Bible actually says!

The rapture was popularized in the 1970s by Hal Lindsey’s writings ( The Late Great Planet Earth, etc.) and more recently by Jim Jenkins and Tim LaHaye in their Left Behind fictional books and films. But where did the idea of the rapture originate?

The origin of the rapture theory

It's like I said, not all Christians believe in the Rapture the false teachings of man's.

As there is no where in the Bible/scriptures that supports man's teachings of the Rapture.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
As there is no where in the Bible/scriptures that supports man's teachings of the Rapture.
And the early Church did not accept the "millennial reign" as found in Revelation literally as they believed the likely reference was to Jesus' establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth with his presence and his crucifixion.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
You do know that there are two tribulations.
And that Christ Jesus gave the last Prophecy in his book of Revelation, That before Christ Jesus can return this last prophecy has to happen first

And when this last prophecy happens the tribulation is over and then Christ Jesus returns.
And not before this last prophecy happens that Christ Jesus gave in his book of Revelation happens first.

Where is it written that there are two tribulations?
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Where is it written that there are two tribulations?

In the book of Revelation, What you have is the tribulation of the AntiChrist and then the tribulation of Christ Jesus.
Where people are caught in the worshipping the AntiChrist. When Christ Jesus catch them in worshipping the AntiChrist.
 
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