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Was Canaan the child of Ham and Noah’s wife

sooda

Veteran Member
Canaan! The result of an incestuous relationship between Noah’s wife and Ham???? What a load of unsupported mental masterbating rubbish..

The scriptures do not reveal exactly what Canaan had done to his grandfather Noah, as he lay naked in a drunken stupor in his tent, so we can only speculate as to what occurred. My own personal opinion is that Canaan, the ancestor of today’s Palestinians, sodomised his grandfather, but like I said, that is only my personal opinion.

Shem, is the younger brother of Ham the first-born son of Noah, and Ham is the father of Canaan whom Noah cursed when he awoke from his drunken stupor and realised what his youngest descendant [Canaan] had done to him. After cursing Canaan, Shem was given the blessing of first born by Noah, which was removed from his elder brother, “Ham,” because of what his son Canaan had done to him. See Genesis 9: 24 to 27.

The scriptures tell us that Noah had begun his family when he had turned 500, If it had been after he turned 510, the bible would have stated that, if it was after Noah had turned 505, the bible would have said so, if it were after Noah turned 502, this would have been revealed in scripture, but no! The Bible tells us that it was when Noah turned 500 that he began his family.

Genesis 8: 4; On the seventeenth day of the seventh month of the six hundredth year of Noah, the boat came to rest on a mountain in the Ararat range, showing that Noah, who began his family just after he turned 500, was six hundred years old when the flood came to its finish. Then in Genesis 11: 10; we read; “These are the descendants of Shem. Two years after the flood, when Shem was 100 years old etc.” Here, the scriptures reveal to all, that Shem was born when Noah was 502.

And again, in Genesis 10: 21; we read that “Shem is the older brother of Japheth.” Knowing from the scriptures, that Japheth was the younger brother of Shem, and being assured by the scriptures that Shem was born when Noah was 502, and that Noah began his Family when he turned 500; we have deduced from all this, that Ham was the first-born son of Noah.

The reason why God sent the descendants of Shem into the land of the first born son of Noah, Ham/Egypt, was because of what Canaan the youngest descent of Noah had done to him while he lay naked in his tent in a drunken stupor; Genesis 9: 24; When Noah sobered up and learned what his youngest son/Male descendant had done to him, he cursed Canaan and blessed his second son Shem, on who he then bestowed the blessing of first born.

Jubilees 7: 13; And Ham knew that his father had cursed his younger son, and he was displeased that he had cursed his son. and he parted from his father, he and his sons with him, Cush and Mizraim and Put and Canaan. And he built for himself a city and called its name after the name of his wife Ne’elatama’uk.

The Book of Jubilees Chapter 8: When Noah divided the Land among his three sons, Shem received the middle portion, from the delta of the river of Egypt, north to Lebanon and east to India, while Ham received the land of Africa to the south, and Japheth received the land to the north of Lebanon, which according to the book of Jubilees 8: 30; It is said that the Land of Japheth included the five great islands and a great land in the north. But it is cold, and the land of Ham is Hot, and the land of Shem (The middle son) is neither hot nor cold, but it is of blended cold and heat.

The sons of Noah then divided their portion of land among their sons, and it is written in Jubilees 9: 14; “And thus the sons of Noah divided unto their sons in the presence of Noah their father, and he bound them all by an oath, imprecating a curse on everyone who sought to seize the portion that had not fallen to him by lot. And they all said, ‘So be it; so be it,’ for themselves and for their sons for ever throughout their generations til the day of judgement, etc.”

Then in chapter 10: 29; we read; “And Canaan saw the land of Lebanon to the river Egypt, that it was very good, and he went not into the land of his inheritance to the west (That is to) the sea, and he dwelt in the land of Lebanon, eastward and westward from the border of the Jordan and from the border of the sea. And Ham his father, and Cush and Mizraim, his brothers said unto him: ‘Thou hast settled in a land which is not thine, and which did not fall to us by lot: do not do so; for if thou dost do so, thou and thy sons will fall in the land and be accursed through sedition; for by sedition ye have settled; and by sedition will thy children fall, and thou shalt be rooted out forever, etc.

After Noah had transferred the blessing of firstborn to Shem, the Lord God then had to remove from Ham the spirit of Firstborn and implant it into the expanded body of Shem.

This He did by sending Jacob/Israel, the chosen descendant of Shem into the land of firstborn/Egypt, where they interbred with Ham’s descendants for 215 years, before killing all the firstborn male descendants of Ham, after which, in the year of 1567 B.C., The Lord then called his Son ‘Israel’ in who had been transferred the spirit of Firstborn, out of Egypt.


Genesis 9:24
When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son (Ham) had done to him.

Genesis 10:21 indicates that Japheth was the oldest and was born when Noah was 500 years old. Ham is the youngest, as indicated in Genesis 9:24, after Ham’s inappropriate actions to his father
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
The Story in Genesis

Gen 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
Gen 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness.
Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
Gen 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
Gen 9:26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

This is a very interesting text. It brings to mind many questions. Why would Noah curse a child for the sins of his father; doesn’t the Bible condemn this (Ezekiel 18:20)? Why does Noah not curse Ham? Why is seeing your father naked a sin, after all, can a father not bathe in the same bath as his child? Why is Noah mad at this? What exactly did Ham “do to” Noah?

Before addressing the meaning of the text, it is important to understand how the Bible was written, to whom the Bible was written, and how to know the meaning of stories in the Bible.

Cultural Idioms

Throughout the Bible, Jewish cultural idioms are used. American authors do this all the time. They speak of “hitting the road”, someone “stabbing” someone in the back, or doing something “against the clock”. It would be a tragic injustice for future readers not to understand cultural idioms and, instead, interpret the words literally. Take a few Biblical examples:

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

This is a very curious passage. Taken literally, the events described would horrify any normal person. The text, however, seems to gloss over (“glossing over” is another American idiom) this statement. This statement makes very little sense unless it is realized that “lowest parts of the earth” and “womb” were idiomatically identical in Jewish culture. See King David’s Psalm on the formation of unborn children:

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
Psa 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

It is clear, from the wording of verse 13 and verse 15 that womb and lowest parts of the earth are used interchangeably.

Anachronisms

Because the Bible was written to actual human beings by actual human beings to convey actual ideas, sometimes words and concepts are used anachronistically. If someone is talking about the foundation of the city of Rome, they may say that “Romulus and Remus arrived at Rome around 750 BC”. Although the city was not yet founded, it is normal to give listeners an adequate understanding of events by anachronistically using words and concepts. The Bible does this several times:

Gen 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.



Gen 21:31 Wherefore he called that place Beersheba; because there they sware both of them.
Gen 21:32 Thus they made a covenant at Beersheba: then Abimelech rose up, and Phichol the chief captain of his host, and they returned into the land of the Philistines.

Before Beersheba is even named, Abraham is said to be wandering in the wilderness of Beersheba. Likewise, take an example from the New Testament. In Luke the story develops John the Baptist far into his ministry before it introduces the birth of Christ:

Luk 1:80 And the child [John the Baptist] grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.
[very next verse is Luk 2:1]
Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Luk 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

Someone wishing to critique the Bible might object that this was introduced anachronistically. But because human beings converse, write, and explain concepts anachronistically, these critiques should be ignored. Anachronistic use of words are normal in conversation, especially if they are used to convey meaningful concepts.

Euphemisms

The Bible loves using euphemisms (note that the “Bible loves” is another American idiom). This is especially true when talking about shameful body anatomy and shameful actions of which Paul describes as shameful “even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.” (Eph 5:12). The Bible is replete with examples of this:

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Did Adam “know” his wife? Did Adam not meet his wife until she had a baby? Or is this a euphemism for sexual relations as used also in Mat 1:25.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

What does “came together” mean? Does it mean that he had never seen or talked to Mary before this event? Or is this a euphemism for sexual relations?

Deu 25:11 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets:

Take him by his “secrets”? This is definitely a euphemism for male anatomy.

Paul uses euphemisms when talking about death:

1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Also,

1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Peter uses the same euphemism while quoting a hypothetical scoffer:

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Pretend a Biblical literalist would come along claiming each word was not to be taken figuratively. Each time a Biblical scholar would claim “falling asleep” meant death, the literalist would claim it meant “to take a nap”. How would one prove to this person that “falling asleep” meant death?

Hopefully, the literalist could be explained the concept that human beings communicate in idioms. Idioms communicate very effectively and efficiently to intended audiences. Where consistent phrases are used that make very little sense by the same author of another culture, the chance is that an idiom is at play. If an author explains an idiom, texts by that author which use the same words have a high probability of being an idiom.

Back to the Story

With these concepts in mind, Genesis 9 takes on a whole new meaning:

Gen 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
Gen 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness.
Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
Gen 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
Gen 9:26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

It is curious that Ham is linked with Canaan in verse 21 and then Canaan is cursed in verse 25. Ham, after all, had multiple children (4 boys at least of which Canaan was presumably the youngest). Literalists might claim that Canaan was the most wicked child, but this is nowhere in this text. The literalist is violating his own rules of interpretation to explain Canaan’s curse. The Bible NEVER informs the reader about the individual named Canaan except the place of his decedent’s residence and his lineage.

Canaan’s curse would make sense if it was a curse to a nation. After all, like Esau being Jacob’s servant, nowhere does the Bible explain that the man Canaan was actually a servant to his brothers. God tells us that he sees children as nations (this would be true while nations are first forming):

Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

It's a national curse, the potter/clay/Jacob/Esau are national. There is no predestinarian salvation for individuals, it's all national/corportate.

We call (some of the descendants of) the Canaanites Palestinians today.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The Story in Genesis

Gen 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
Gen 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness.
Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
Gen 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
Gen 9:26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

This is a very interesting text. It brings to mind many questions. Why would Noah curse a child for the sins of his father; doesn’t the Bible condemn this (Ezekiel 18:20)? Why does Noah not curse Ham? Why is seeing your father naked a sin, after all, can a father not bathe in the same bath as his child? Why is Noah mad at this? What exactly did Ham “do to” Noah?

Before addressing the meaning of the text, it is important to understand how the Bible was written, to whom the Bible was written, and how to know the meaning of stories in the Bible.

This is interesting... But I do have a couple of questions:

1) I noticed that you take the curse of Canaan literally but you are expounding on how things should be taken literal but rather culturally, or by anachronism or by an application of euphemism. Seems contradictory on the surface although I believe that all Christians believe that some things are literal and some aren't. Why did you take this literally?
2) Could it be possible that there are other understandings because of cultural idioms as you mentioned?

John Gill has a cultural idiom understanding:

and knew what his younger son had done to him;
"either by revelation, as some, or prophecy, as Ben Gersom, or by the relation of his two sons, whom, when finding himself covered with another's garment, he might question how it came about, and they told him the whole affair: some, as Aben Ezra, Ben Gersom, and Abendana, think that this was not Ham, the younger son of Noah, and whom some also will have not to be the youngest, being always placed middlemost, but Canaan, the fourth and youngest son of Ham; and whom Noah indeed might call his younger, or "his son, the little one" F16; as it was usual for grandchildren to be called the sons of their grandfather; see ( Genesis 29:5 ) and Noah might be informed how his little son, or rather grandson Canaan, had been in his tent, and seeing him in the posture he was, went very merrily, and told his father Ham of it, who made a jest of it also; and this seems the more reasonable, since Canaan was immediately cursed by Noah, as in the following verse; (See Gill on Genesis 9:22) this affair must happen many years after Noah's coming out of the ark, since then his sons had no children; whereas Ham had at this time four sons, and Canaan was the youngest of them; and he was grown up to an age sufficient to be concerned in this matter, of treating his grandfather in an ill way, so as to bring his curse upon him: Jarchi interprets "little" by abominable and contemptible, supposing it refers not to age, but character, and which was bad both in Ham and Canaan:" (Emphasis mine)

Cultural Idioms

Throughout the Bible, Jewish cultural idioms are used. American authors do this all the time. They speak of “hitting the road”, someone “stabbing” someone in the back, or doing something “against the clock”. It would be a tragic injustice for future readers not to understand cultural idioms and, instead, interpret the words literally. Take a few Biblical examples:

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

This is a very curious passage. Taken literally, the events described would horrify any normal person. The text, however, seems to gloss over (“glossing over” is another American idiom) this statement.
I'm not sure why:
1) What is so horrific - we do come out naked and we certainly don't go to Heaven with our earthly clothes and thus "naked"
2) "the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD" is just what Job said. He also admitted later, "Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

I personally think that he didn't now what he was saying.

This statement makes very little sense unless it is realized that “lowest parts of the earth” and “womb” were idiomatically identical in Jewish culture. See King David’s Psalm on the formation of unborn children:

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
Psa 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

It is clear, from the wording of verse 13 and verse 15 that womb and lowest parts of the earth are used interchangeably.

Although I understand the necessity to have a cultural understanding, I think it would be wrong to apply Job with Psalms. Different application.

Anachronisms

Because the Bible was written to actual human beings by actual human beings to convey actual ideas, sometimes words and concepts are used anachronistically. If someone is talking about the foundation of the city of Rome, they may say that “Romulus and Remus arrived at Rome around 750 BC”. Although the city was not yet founded, it is normal to give listeners an adequate understanding of events by anachronistically using words and concepts. The Bible does this several times:

Gen 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.



Gen 21:31 Wherefore he called that place Beersheba; because there they sware both of them.
Gen 21:32 Thus they made a covenant at Beersheba: then Abimelech rose up, and Phichol the chief captain of his host, and they returned into the land of the Philistines.

Before Beersheba is even named, Abraham is said to be wandering in the wilderness of Beersheba. Likewise, take an example from the New Testament. In Luke the story develops John the Baptist far into his ministry before it introduces the birth of Christ:

Luk 1:80 And the child [John the Baptist] grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.
[very next verse is Luk 2:1]
Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Luk 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

Someone wishing to critique the Bible might object that this was introduced anachronistically. But because human beings converse, write, and explain concepts anachronistically, these critiques should be ignored. Anachronistic use of words are normal in conversation, especially if they are used to convey meaningful concepts.

OK, but perhaps your interpretation of Beersheba is wrong? Again, quoting from John Gill:

"Wherefore he called that place Beersheba
Either Abraham or Abimelech, or both, called it so; or it may be read impersonally, "therefore the place was called Beersheba" for two reasons, one implied, the other expressed; one was, because of the seven lambs before mentioned; so the Targum of Jonathan,

``and therefore he called the well the well of seven lambs;''"Beer" signifying a well, and "sheba" seven; the other, and which is more certain, being expressed, is as follows; because there they sware both of them;
by the living God, to keep the covenant inviolably they had made between them."

His understanding (as well as from the Targum of Jonathan) seems to be better applied, IMO.

Euphemisms

The Bible loves using euphemisms (note that the “Bible loves” is another American idiom). This is especially true when talking about shameful body anatomy and shameful actions of which Paul describes as shameful “even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.” (Eph 5:12). The Bible is replete with examples of this:

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Did Adam “know” his wife? Did Adam not meet his wife until she had a baby? Or is this a euphemism for sexual relations as used also in Mat 1:25.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Pretend a Biblical literalist would come along claiming each word was not to be taken figuratively. Each time a Biblical scholar would claim “falling asleep” meant death, the literalist would claim it meant “to take a nap”. How would one prove to this person that “falling asleep” meant death?

Hopefully, the literalist could be explained the concept that human beings communicate in idioms. Idioms communicate very effectively and efficiently to intended audiences. Where consistent phrases are used that make very little sense by the same author of another culture, the chance is that an idiom is at play. If an author explains an idiom, texts by that author which use the same words have a high probability of being an idiom.

Agreed.

Back to the Story

With these concepts in mind, Genesis 9 takes on a whole new meaning:

Gen 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
... ...Gen 9:26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Please refer to first comment...

Agreed that it isn't literal but actually talking about Canaan in specific.

(Deleted some of your post to keep it under 12000 words)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
This is interesting... But I do have a couple of questions:

1) I noticed that you take the curse of Canaan literally but you are expounding on how things should be taken literal but rather culturally, or by anachronism or by an application of euphemism. Seems contradictory on the surface although I believe that all Christians believe that some things are literal and some aren't. Why did you take this literally?
2) Could it be possible that there are other understandings because of cultural idioms as you mentioned?

John Gill has a cultural idiom understanding:

and knew what his younger son had done to him;
"either by revelation, as some, or prophecy, as Ben Gersom, or by the relation of his two sons, whom, when finding himself covered with another's garment, he might question how it came about, and they told him the whole affair: some, as Aben Ezra, Ben Gersom, and Abendana, think that this was not Ham, the younger son of Noah, and whom some also will have not to be the youngest, being always placed middlemost, but Canaan, the fourth and youngest son of Ham; and whom Noah indeed might call his younger, or "his son, the little one" F16; as it was usual for grandchildren to be called the sons of their grandfather; see ( Genesis 29:5 ) and Noah might be informed how his little son, or rather grandson Canaan, had been in his tent, and seeing him in the posture he was, went very merrily, and told his father Ham of it, who made a jest of it also; and this seems the more reasonable, since Canaan was immediately cursed by Noah, as in the following verse; (See Gill on Genesis 9:22) this affair must happen many years after Noah's coming out of the ark, since then his sons had no children; whereas Ham had at this time four sons, and Canaan was the youngest of them; and he was grown up to an age sufficient to be concerned in this matter, of treating his grandfather in an ill way, so as to bring his curse upon him: Jarchi interprets "little" by abominable and contemptible, supposing it refers not to age, but character, and which was bad both in Ham and Canaan:" (Emphasis mine)


I'm not sure why:
1) What is so horrific - we do come out naked and we certainly don't go to Heaven with our earthly clothes and thus "naked"
2) "the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD" is just what Job said. He also admitted later, "Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

I personally think that he didn't now what he was saying.



Although I understand the necessity to have a cultural understanding, I think it would be wrong to apply Job with Psalms. Different application.



OK, but perhaps your interpretation of Beersheba is wrong? Again, quoting from John Gill:

"Wherefore he called that place Beersheba
Either Abraham or Abimelech, or both, called it so; or it may be read impersonally, "therefore the place was called Beersheba" for two reasons, one implied, the other expressed; one was, because of the seven lambs before mentioned; so the Targum of Jonathan,

``and therefore he called the well the well of seven lambs;''"Beer" signifying a well, and "sheba" seven; the other, and which is more certain, being expressed, is as follows; because there they sware both of them;
by the living God, to keep the covenant inviolably they had made between them."

His understanding (as well as from the Targum of Jonathan) seems to be better applied, IMO.



Agreed.

Good grief.. I don't take it literally.. IMO there was no Noah and no global flood.. Just trying to understand the mindset and motives of those who wrote this myth.

Canaan was the father of Sidon his firstborn, and of the Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, Girga****es, Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, Arvadites, Zemarites and Hamathites.

Canaanites were both settled and nomadic people living west of the Jordan River, by the sea, and along by the side of the Jordan.

They were settled farmers and Bedouin and the Bedouins had symbiotic affiliations with settled members of extended families. They were NOT landless.

Is this the reason the Hebrews claimed God told them to murder the Canaanites?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Good grief.. I don't take it literally.. IMO there was no Noah and no global flood.. Just trying to understand the mindset and motives of those who wrote this myth.

Canaan was the father of Sidon his firstborn, and of the Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, Girga****es, Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, Arvadites, Zemarites and Hamathites.

Canaanites were both settled and nomadic people living west of the Jordan River, by the sea, and along by the side of the Jordan.

They were settled farmers and Bedouin and the Bedouins had symbiotic affiliations with settled members of extended families. They were NOT landless.

Is this the reason the Hebrews claimed God told them to murder the Canaanites?

WHOOOA there horsey. Just giving insight and understanding. Not accusing you of being a literalist.

As far as the extermination of Canaanites, I believe it was because of:

1) Child sacrificing including burning in fires;
2) Bestiality (rampant sickness?)
3) Incest
4) Deviant acts

I would assume that murder was also on the list of things Canaanites were used to doing.

But I'm not sure what this had to do with the original OP? Are we changing the subject now?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
:facepalm: where did that come from? Noah's wife is not mentioned. The two brothers who covered up their father's nakedness did so to restore his dignity. The account is too vague to make statements like that. :eek:

The readers are looking for an excuse for the fictional Noah to curse his grandson... So much for "Holy" Bible.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
WHOOOA there horsey. Just giving insight and understanding. Not accusing you of being a literalist.

As far as the extermination of Canaanites, I believe it was because of:

1) Child sacrificing including burning in fires;
2) Bestiality (rampant sickness?)
3) Incest
4) Deviant acts

I would assume that murder was also on the list of things Canaanites were used to doing.

But I'm not sure what this had to do with the original OP? Are we changing the subject now?

The Hebrews had the same problems with incest and child sacrifice.. We know a lot more about the Canaanite religion since 1930 when they found the clay tablets at Ras Shamra.. The Jews were Canaanites and worshipped the same pantheon of gods.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The Hebrews had the same problems with incest and child sacrifice.. We know a lot more about the Canaanite religion since 1930 when they found the clay tablets at Ras Shamra.. The Jews were Canaanites and worshipped the same pantheon of gods.
Yes, some Jews also did not follow Yahweh, but there was always consequences followed by repentance. Thus the Diaspora,.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Yes, some Jews also did not follow Yahweh, but there was always consequences followed by repentance. Thus the Diaspora,.

The Diaspora began long before the birth of Christ.. There were Jewish communities in Alexandria, Aleppo, Persia, Damascus, all around the Med and in Anatolia, Elephantine Island and Rome.

I don't make that connection.. I just think the religion evolved.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The Diaspora began long before the birth of Christ.. There were Jewish communities in Alexandria, Aleppo, Persia, Damascus, all around the Med and in Anatolia, Elephantine Island and Rome.

I don't make that connection.. I just think the religion evolved.
OK...

Don't agree...

But that is a matter of viewpoints.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The readers are looking for an excuse for the fictional Noah to curse his grandson... So much for "Holy" Bible.

What readers? Why does Noah have to be a fictional character? Who said?
Jesus spoke of him as a real person and the conditions that caused God to eliminate wicked men and demons from existence back then have arrived upon us again, just as he said. (Matthew 24:37-39)

Whatever was done to Noah was serious enough to merit God's extreme displeasure with the perpetrators. The Bible provides no details of the offense, so running away with guesswork accomplishes what?
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The Hebrews had the same problems with incest and child sacrifice.. We know a lot more about the Canaanite religion since 1930 when they found the clay tablets at Ras Shamra.. The Jews were Canaanites and worshipped the same pantheon of gods.

:facepalm: The Jews were told NOT to adopt the ways of the Canaanites.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12...
"When you have entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations. 10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, 11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you."

The very things that God warned them about is what they practiced....the very things that were "detestable" to God is what they did. Any wonder he punished them!
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Genesis 9:24
When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son (Ham) had done to him.

Genesis 10:21 indicates that Japheth was the oldest and was born when Noah was 500 years old. Ham is the youngest, as indicated in Genesis 9:24, after Ham’s inappropriate actions to his father

Good News Bible Catholic Study Edition, Genesis 9: 24;When Noah sobered up and learned what his youngest Son-ben-descendant had done to him, he said; "A curse on Canaan, etc"

Good News Bible Catholic Study Edition, Genesis 10: 21; Shem the older brother of Japheth, was the ancestor of all the Hebrews.

Noah began his family with the birth of Ham, when he was 500. Shem was 100, two years after the flood which ended when Noah was 600: Shem the older brother of Japheth was born when Noah was 502.

Because of what Ham's son 'Canaan' had done to Noah while he lay naked in his tent in a drunken stupor, Ham lost the blessing of first-born, which was then given to Shem the second born. .

Jubilees 7: 13; And Ham knew that his father had cursed his younger son, and he was displeased that he had cursed his son. and he parted from his father, he and his sons with him, Cush and Mizraim and Put and Canaan. And he built for himself a city and called its name after the name of his wife Ne’elatama’uk.

The Book of Jubilees Chapter 8: When Noah divided the Land among his three sons, Shem received the middle portion, from the delta of the river of Egypt, north to Lebanon and east to India, while Ham received the land of Africa to the south, and Japheth received the land to the north of Lebanon, which according to the book of Jubilees 8: 30; It is said that the Land of Japheth included the five great islands and a great land in the north. But it is cold, and the land of Ham is Hot, and the land of Shem (The middle son) is neither hot nor cold, but it is of blended cold and heat.

The sons of Noah then divided their portion of land among their sons, and it is written in Jubilees 9: 14; “And thus the sons of Noah divided unto their sons in the presence of Noah their father, and he bound them all by an oath, imprecating a curse on everyone who sought to seize the portion that had not fallen to him by lot. And they all said, ‘So be it; so be it,’ for themselves and for their sons for ever throughout their generations til the day of judgement, etc.”

Then in chapter 10: 29; we read; “And Canaan saw the land of Lebanon to the river Egypt, that it was very good, and he went not into the land of his inheritance to the west (That is to) the sea, and he dwelt in the land of Lebanon, eastward and westward from the border of the Jordan and from the border of the sea. And Ham his father, and Cush and Mizraim, his brothers said unto him: ‘Thou hast settled in a land which is not thine, and which did not fall to us by lot: do not do so; for if thou dost do so, thou and thy sons will fall in the land and be accursed through sedition; for by sedition ye have settled; and by sedition will thy children fall, and thou shalt be rooted out forever, etc.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Good News Bible Catholic Study Edition, Genesis 9: 24;When Noah sobered up and learned what his youngest Son-ben-descendant had done to him, he said; "A curse on Canaan, etc"

Good News Bible Catholic Study Edition, Genesis 10: 21; Shem the older brother of Japheth, was the ancestor of all the Hebrews.

Noah began his family with the birth of Ham, when he was 500. Shem was 100, two years after the flood which ended when Noah was 600: Shem the older brother of Japheth was born when Noah was 502.

Because of what Ham's son 'Canaan' had done to Noah while he lay naked in his tent in a drunken stupor, Ham lost the blessing of first-born, which was then given to Shem the second born. .

Jubilees 7: 13; And Ham knew that his father had cursed his younger son, and he was displeased that he had cursed his son. and he parted from his father, he and his sons with him, Cush and Mizraim and Put and Canaan. And he built for himself a city and called its name after the name of his wife Ne’elatama’uk.

The Book of Jubilees Chapter 8: When Noah divided the Land among his three sons, Shem received the middle portion, from the delta of the river of Egypt, north to Lebanon and east to India, while Ham received the land of Africa to the south, and Japheth received the land to the north of Lebanon, which according to the book of Jubilees 8: 30; It is said that the Land of Japheth included the five great islands and a great land in the north. But it is cold, and the land of Ham is Hot, and the land of Shem (The middle son) is neither hot nor cold, but it is of blended cold and heat.

The sons of Noah then divided their portion of land among their sons, and it is written in Jubilees 9: 14; “And thus the sons of Noah divided unto their sons in the presence of Noah their father, and he bound them all by an oath, imprecating a curse on everyone who sought to seize the portion that had not fallen to him by lot. And they all said, ‘So be it; so be it,’ for themselves and for their sons for ever throughout their generations til the day of judgement, etc.”

Then in chapter 10: 29; we read; “And Canaan saw the land of Lebanon to the river Egypt, that it was very good, and he went not into the land of his inheritance to the west (That is to) the sea, and he dwelt in the land of Lebanon, eastward and westward from the border of the Jordan and from the border of the sea. And Ham his father, and Cush and Mizraim, his brothers said unto him: ‘Thou hast settled in a land which is not thine, and which did not fall to us by lot: do not do so; for if thou dost do so, thou and thy sons will fall in the land and be accursed through sedition; for by sedition ye have settled; and by sedition will thy children fall, and thou shalt be rooted out forever, etc.

I take it you follow the Book of Jubilees instead of the Bible.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
I take it you follow the Book of Jubilees instead of the Bible.

The book of Jubilees, the books of Enoch etc, may not belong to few limited scriptures compiled by the Roman church of Emperor Constantine as their canon.

And all her denominational daughters, who were spawned from her spirit/teachings before breaking away from their mother body in order to establish families of their own, are too afraid to eat from any table that was not prepared by her, they are afraid that any other spiritual food, that has not been prepared by SHE who sits on the seven hills of Rome and is the mother of harlots, would be poison to them.

But I eat whatever is set before me. That which is needed for the continued growth of the mind/spirit that is me, is retained, the rubbish is rejected

Yes I believe Luke who says that Cainam is the father of Shelah, and reject the parts in the Roman and Jewish bible, which state that Shelah is the son of Arpachshad, and why? because Luke's statement is verified in the book of Jubilees and the Septuagint.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
The book of Jubilees, the books of Enoch etc, may not belong to few limited scriptures compiled by the Roman church of Emperor Constantine as their canon.

And all her denominational daughters, who were spawned from her spirit/teachings before breaking away from their mother body in order to establish families of their own, are too afraid to eat from any table that was not prepared by her, they are afraid that any other spiritual food, that has not been prepared by SHE who sits on the seven hills of Rome and is the mother of harlots, would be poison to them.

But I eat whatever is set before me. That which is needed for the continued growth of the mind/spirit that is me, is retained, the rubbish is rejected

Yes I believe Luke who says that Cainam is the father of Shelah, and reject the parts in the Roman and Jewish bible, which state that Shelah is the son of Arpachshad, and why? because Luke's statement is verified in the book of Jubilees and the Septuagint.
The book of Jubilees, the books of Enoch etc, may not belong to few limited scriptures compiled by the Roman church of Emperor Constantine as their canon.

And all her denominational daughters, who were spawned from her spirit/teachings before breaking away from their mother body in order to establish families of their own, are too afraid to eat from any table that was not prepared by her, they are afraid that any other spiritual food, that has not been prepared by SHE who sits on the seven hills of Rome and is the mother of harlots, would be poison to them.

But I eat whatever is set before me. That which is needed for the continued growth of the mind/spirit that is me, is retained, the rubbish is rejected

Yes I believe Luke who says that Cainam is the father of Shelah, and reject the parts in the Roman and Jewish bible, which state that Shelah is the son of Arpachshad, and why? because Luke's statement is verified in the book of Jubilees and the Septuagint.


The Book Of Jubilees Chapter 1 - Yahweh's Scriptures
11 And they will make to themselves high places and groves and graven images, and they will worship, each his own (graven image), so as to go astray, and they will sacrifice their children to demons, and to all the works of the error of their hearts.

12 And I will send witnesses unto them, that I may witness against them, but they will not hear, and will slay the witnesses also, and they will persecute those who seek the torah, and they will abrogate and change everything so as to work evil before My eyes.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
The Book Of Jubilees Chapter 1 - Yahweh's Scriptures
11 And they will make to themselves high places and groves and graven images, and they will worship, each his own (graven image), so as to go astray, and they will sacrifice their children to demons, and to all the works of the error of their hearts.

12 And I will send witnesses unto them, that I may witness against them, but they will not hear, and will slay the witnesses also, and they will persecute those who seek the torah, and they will abrogate and change everything so as to work evil before My eyes.

And they will make to themselves high places and groves and graven images, and they will worship, each his own (graven image), so as to go astray, and they 12 will sacrifice their children to demons, and to all the works of the error of their hearts. And I will

send witnesses unto them, that I may witness against them, but they will not hear, and will slay the witnesses also, and they will persecute those who seek the law, and they will abrogate and change 13 everything so as to work evil before My eyes. And I will hide My face from them, and I will deliver them into the hand of the Gentiles for captivity, and for a prey, and for devouring, and I will remove them from the midst of the land, and I will scatter them amongst the Gentiles.

14 And they will forget all My law and all My commandments and all My judgments, and will go 15 astray as to new moons, and sabbaths, and festivals, and jubilees, and ordinances. And after this they will turn to Me from amongst the Gentiles with all their heart and with all their soul and with all their strength, and I will gather them from amongst all the Gentiles, and they will seek me, so 16 that I shall be found of them, when they seek me with all their heart and with all their soul.

And I will disclose to them abounding peace with righteousness, and I will remove them the plant of uprightness, with all My heart and with all My soul, and they shall be for a blessing and not for 17 a curse, and they shall be the head and not the tail. And I will build My sanctuary in their midst, and I will dwell with them, and I will be their God and they shall be My people in truth and 18, 19 righteousness. And I will not forsake them nor fail them; for I am the Lord their God.’

What a loving forgiving God they have. What do you reckon Grandma?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
And they will make to themselves high places and groves and graven images, and they will worship, each his own (graven image), so as to go astray, and they 12 will sacrifice their children to demons, and to all the works of the error of their hearts. And I will

send witnesses unto them, that I may witness against them, but they will not hear, and will slay the witnesses also, and they will persecute those who seek the law, and they will abrogate and change 13 everything so as to work evil before My eyes. And I will hide My face from them, and I will deliver them into the hand of the Gentiles for captivity, and for a prey, and for devouring, and I will remove them from the midst of the land, and I will scatter them amongst the Gentiles.

14 And they will forget all My law and all My commandments and all My judgments, and will go 15 astray as to new moons, and sabbaths, and festivals, and jubilees, and ordinances. And after this they will turn to Me from amongst the Gentiles with all their heart and with all their soul and with all their strength, and I will gather them from amongst all the Gentiles, and they will seek me, so 16 that I shall be found of them, when they seek me with all their heart and with all their soul.

And I will disclose to them abounding peace with righteousness, and I will remove them the plant of uprightness, with all My heart and with all My soul, and they shall be for a blessing and not for 17 a curse, and they shall be the head and not the tail. And I will build My sanctuary in their midst, and I will dwell with them, and I will be their God and they shall be My people in truth and 18, 19 righteousness. And I will not forsake them nor fail them; for I am the Lord their God.’

What a loving forgiving God they have. What do you reckon Grandma?

God's Revelation to Moses on Mount Sinai
(i. 1-26: cf. Ex. xxiv. 15-18).
 
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