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Egyptian and Jewish exodus what proof?

sooda

Veteran Member
There is NO evidence for Sodom and Gomorrah … There is speculation that it could be Tel el Hammam, but that was destroyed hundreds of years before Abraham.

The region was occupied by humans for at least 2,500 years until around 1,700 BCE, when its farming settlements and cities were suddenly abandoned and people did not return to the region for 600 to 700 years.

Tell el-Hammam was apparently destroyed, as the remains of mud-brick walls suggest. Pieces of pottery recovered and dated to the same time of the destruction of the city show evidence of intense heat.

The outer layers of the vessels and other objects made from clay partially melted, forming a glassy coat.

Is The Biblical Destruction Of Sodom And Gomorrah Based On A Real-Life Impact Event?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year, which was the first Passover ever, was the day in which all the first born sons of Egypt were killed. Around that time the volcanic Island of Santorini or Thira as it is also known, which was situated in the Aegean-sea, on the Anatolian plate, which is subject to the forces of the over-riding African Plate that grinds against the Arabian plate in its Northern migration, exploded with many times the force of Krakatoa, which was a volcanic island that exploded in 1883, and that explosion was heard 5,000 kilometres away, and caused a tsunami that killed at least 36,000 people. It has been estimated that when the island of Santorini exploded, 35,000 kilometres of material was lifted into the stratosphere, and that the explosive force would have created tidal waves of anything up to 130 ft high which would have traveled at speeds of around 150 miles per hour.

A cloud, that turned day into night around 1,500 BC, has been recorded in Chinese history, and would have covered all of north Africa. The African and Arabian plates intersect in a line that runs through the Red Sea and up the Jordan valley through the Dead Sea which was created hundreds of years before the explosion of Santorini, when violent underground activity destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which were then situated in the Jordan valley and in the days of Lot, that area was described, as like unto the garden of the Lord, with abundant fresh water flowing through it.

Look at the strange phenomenon that was occurring at the time of the Exodus. The cloud that blanketed north Africa and most of Europe, and turned day into a night so dark that a man was not able to recognise his own brother who was standing at arms-length from him. The rain of sulfuric acid that caused so much crop failure and the death of the livestock which were forced to feed on the polluted pastures, the following series of shock waves along the great rift valley and the fractures in the Sini peninsular which is situated on the Arabian plate, the bulging of the earth’s crust beneath the Red Sea which caused a highway to rise from the waters, with its following tremor when it collapsed and tidal waves that rolled in like two walls of water on either side of where the highway had been.

Wisdom of Solomon 19: 7-8, ‘Then was beheld the cloud that shadowed the camp, and dry land rising up out of what was before water, Out of the Red sea an unhindered highway, and a grassy plain rising out of the violent surge.”

Look even where the Israelites camped on the shore of the Red sea, which was smack bang in the middle of a major coal field in Egypt.

The bulging earth rising from the surging sea before them, pressurised gas screaming from the opening fissures creating towering pillars of fire to burn behind them, a strong east wind blew all that night causing the thick smoke to blind the pursuing Egyptians while lighting up the camp of the Israelites on the eastern side of those wild fires.

All these events were caused from pressures that had been built up over tens of thousands of years and would have occurred in their proper time, irrelevant of the Israeli situation. Where the miracle lay, was in the fact that an unseen deity was able, through his prophet Moses, to organise the events leading up to and including the exodus itself at the precise time in history that this cataclysmic event occurred.

In the book “The Wisdom of Solomon, 16” Solomon has much to say about the days of Moses; he speaks of the strange hails that fell from heaven. Burning balls of frozen gases, some with the ability to burn even in water, some which burned with a heat so intense that they incinerated anything they came in contact with, while other hail, burned with a cold fire through which animals could walk unharmed.

Solomon also speaks of the cloud that covered the Israelites in the desert and of the Manna that fell from heaven during the night. According to Solomon, the heavenly covering was a cloud by day and a host of stars by night, (a night sky ablaze with falling balls of burning hail stones). Then concerning the heavenly Manna, he says, “And that which was not injured by fire, [Burning hailstones] simply warmed by a faint sun beam melted away.

Each morning the desert floor was covered with mounds of a flaky cellulose substance which looked like coriander seed, and would melt and breed worms and stink if left out in the sun, and yet could be preserved when cooked, and tasted like biscuits mixed with the purest of olive oils.

Carbohydrates are any of a group of chemical compounds, including sugars, starches, and cellulose, containing carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen only, [of which there was an ample supply in the cloud from the volcanic explosion] with the ratio of hydrogen to oxygen atoms usually 2 : 1. Perhaps, if our scientists could simulate the same conditions that occurred in the stratosphere when the island of Thira exploded, they may come up with an inexpensive and environmentally friendly source of food production to feed the starving millions on the earth.

The early Egyptian magicians or scientists, were able to duplicate some of the miracles of God as performed by Moses. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if our magician/scientists of today were able to perform the more mysterious of God’s miracles as seen in the days of Moses, and provide an abundant and cheap source of food to feed the ever growing population on this earth.

As I have already said, all those things that happened in Egypt at that time, were caused from pressures that had built up over many, many, thousands of years. Where the miracle is found, is in the fact that some invisible entity from some other time dimension, was able to instigate the Exodus, at the precise time that the destructive forces beneath the island of Santorini, were beginning to awake.

And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here that Joseph the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that they departed Egypt in 1567B.C.

Although radiocarbon dating of an olive tree imbedded in lava would appear to indicate a 1600 BCE eruption of Santorini/Thera, that is, if the lava that it was imbedded in was from the actual eruption that devastated the island and its surrounding districts and not from an earlier minor lava flow, there are many archeologists who still believe that the date is contradicted by findings in Egyptian and Theran excavations.

Buried Egyptian and Cypriot pottery found on Thera were dated to a later period than the radiometric dates for the eruption, and, since the conventional Egyptian chronology has been established by numerous archaeological studies, the exact date of the eruption remains controversial.

Because of all the contradicting evidence, the exact date of the eruption has been difficult to determine. For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at approximately 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young as radiocarbon dating analysis of that 'OLIVE TREE,' which was buried beneath “A” lava flow from the volcano on Santorini, indicate that 'PARTICULAR LAVE FLOW' in which the olive tree was imbedded, occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE.

But at Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption. This matches the composition of the Thera eruption.

And you in your ignorance and rejection of biblical history, say that there is no proof or evidence of the many plagues God put on Egyptians and that Jews crossed the red sea.

Bunch of religious and apologetic claims and rationalisations that aren't in evidence at all and many of which, such as @sooda pointed out, are just plain wrong.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Bunch of religious and apologetic claims and rationalisations that aren't in evidence at all and many of which, such as @sooda pointed out, are just plain wrong.

Connecting stuff regardless of the timeline just creates more confusion. Amateur connect the dots is NOT helpful.

Best guess is that the cities of the plain did not exist in the historical record .. as in never existed or existed long before Abraham.

Arguments Against Locating Sodom at Tall el-Hammam ...
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-sites-places/...

The proposal that Tall el-Hammam is Sodom fails on at least two counts, and these are helpfully summarized by two experts in their respective subjects.

Geography Fail: Bill Schlegel, professor in Israel for 25 years and author of the Satellite Bible Atlas, explains why the biblical text does not fit the geography of Tall el-Hammam.

(Chronology Fail: Eugene Merrill, Distinguished Professor of Old Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary and author of Kingdom of Priests: A History of Old Testament Israel, shows in a recent Artifax article that for Tall el-Hammam to be Sodom one must deny all of the biblical dates before the time of the judges. )
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Connecting stuff regardless of the timeline just creates more confusion. Amateur connect the dots is NOT helpful.

Best guess is that the cities of the plain did not exist in the historical record .. as in never existed or existed long before Abraham.

Arguments Against Locating Sodom at Tall el-Hammam ...
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-sites-places/...

The proposal that Tall el-Hammam is Sodom fails on at least two counts, and these are helpfully summarized by two experts in their respective subjects.

Geography Fail: Bill Schlegel, professor in Israel for 25 years and author of the Satellite Bible Atlas, explains why the biblical text does not fit the geography of Tall el-Hammam.

(Chronology Fail: Eugene Merrill, Distinguished Professor of Old Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary and author of Kingdom of Priests: A History of Old Testament Israel, shows in a recent Artifax article that for Tall el-Hammam to be Sodom one must deny all of the biblical dates before the time of the judges. )

Another problem here, is that EVEN if we would find ruins of cities with those exact names in those exact locations.... that would in no way be evidence that some angels came down to earth and destroyed them with fire and brimstone :rolleyes:
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Another problem here, is that EVEN if we would find ruins of cities with those exact names in those exact locations.... that would in no way be evidence that some angels came down to earth and destroyed them with fire and brimstone :rolleyes:

LOL.. I know.. Its like saying Batman was real because NYC is real.

But, what a great inspiration for a morality tale.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
LOL.. I know.. Its like saying Batman was real because NYC is real.

But, what a great inspiration for a morality tale.

I fear I'll lead it into off topic ranting now....

But the sodom and gomorra tale? ANYTHING but a greatly inspiring morality tale to me!
In fact the opposite: truelly horrible in every sensible way, from all sides.

From whichever angle one wishes to approach this story, to me it reads like a horror tale without any good side.
I don't find any morals in there at all. Not one.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I fear I'll lead it into off topic ranting now....

But the sodom and gomorra tale? ANYTHING but a greatly inspiring morality tale to me!
In fact the opposite: truelly horrible in every sensible way, from all sides.

From whichever angle one wishes to approach this story, to me it reads like a horror tale without any good side.
I don't find any morals in there at all. Not one.

Actually I agree with you.. However, the reason given for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is that the cities were affluent but treated travelers badly. Reading sexual perversion into the story may have titillated some people. But considering that Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt (made barren) and he beds his daughters I don't think sexual morality is the theme of the story.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Actually I agree with you.. However, the reason given for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is that the cities were affluent but treated travelers badly. Reading sexual perversion into the story may have titillated some people. But considering that Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt (made barren) and he beds his daughters I don't think sexual morality is the theme of the story.
Considering it borderlines genocide and completely out of proportion punishment, I'ld say that justice, mercy, love, etc aren't the morality themes either.

That's my point exactly: there are no morality themes to be found in it. Only horror, injustice and just plain despicable practices from all sides.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Considering it borderlines genocide and completely out of proportion punishment, I'ld say that justice, mercy, love, etc aren't the morality themes either.

That's my point exactly: there are no morality themes to be found in it. Only horror, injustice and just plain despicable practices from all sides.

Maybe God had nothing to do with it...
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Where are the 2.5 million Jewish bodies who supposedly died in the wilderness?

Camps large enough for that many people also need latrines and forage for their animals.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
The fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year, which was the first Passover ever, was the day in which all the first-born sons of Egypt were killed. Around that time the volcanic Island of Santorini or Thira as it is also known, which was situated in the Aegean-sea, on the Anatolian plate, which is subject to the forces of the over-riding African Plate that grinds against the Arabian plate in its Northern migration, exploded with many times the force of Krakatoa, which was a volcanic island that exploded in 1883, and that explosion was heard 5,000 kilometres away, and caused a tsunami that killed at least 36,000 people. It has been estimated that when the island of Santorini exploded, 35,000 kilometres of material was lifted into the heavens, and that the explosive force would have created tidal waves of anything up to 130 ft high which would have traveled at speeds of around 150 miles per hour.

A cloud, that turned day into night around 1,500 BC, has been recorded in Chinese history, and would have covered all of north Africa. The African and Arabian plates intersect in a line that runs through the Red Sea and up the Jordan valley through the Dead Sea which was created hundreds of years before the explosion of Santorini, when violent underground activity destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which were then situated in the Jordan valley and in the days of Lot, that area was described, as like unto the garden of the Lord, with abundant fresh water flowing through it.

Look at the strange phenomenon that was occurring at the time of the Exodus. The cloud that blanketed north Africa and most of Europe, and turned day into a night so dark that a man was not able to recognise his own brother who was standing at arms-length from him. The rain of sulfuric acid that caused so much crop failure and the death of the livestock which were forced to feed on the polluted pastures, the following series of shock waves along the great rift valley and the fractures in the Sini peninsular which is situated on the Arabian plate, the bulging of the earth’s crust beneath the Red Sea which caused a highway to rise from the waters, with its following tremor when it collapsed and tidal waves that rolled in like two walls of water on either side of where the highway had been.

Wisdom of Solomon 19: 7-8, ‘Then was beheld the cloud that shadowed the camp, and dry land rising up out of what was before water, Out of the Red sea an unhindered highway, and a grassy plain rising out of the violent surge.”

Look even where the Israelites camped on the shore of the Red sea, which was smack bang in the middle of a major coal field in Egypt.

The bulging earth rising from the surging sea before them, pressurised gas screaming from the opening fissures creating towering pillars of fire to burn behind them, a strong east wind blew all that night causing the thick smoke to blind the pursuing Egyptians while lighting up the camp of the Israelites on the eastern side of those wild fires.

All these events were caused from pressures that had been built up over tens of thousands of years and would have occurred in their proper time, irrelevant of the Israeli situation. Where the miracle lay, was in the fact that an unseen deity was able, through his prophet Moses, to organise the events leading up to and including the exodus itself at the precise time in history that this cataclysmic event occurred.

In the book “The Wisdom of Solomon, 16” Solomon has much to say about the days of Moses; he speaks of the strange hails that fell from heaven. Burning balls of frozen gases, some with the ability to burn even in water, some which burned with a heat so intense that they incinerated anything they came in contact with, while other hail, burned with a cold fire through which animals could walk unharmed.

Solomon also speaks of the cloud that covered the Israelites in the desert and of the Manna that fell from heaven during the night. According to Solomon, the heavenly covering was a cloud by day and a host of stars by night, (a night sky ablaze with falling balls of burning hail stones). Then concerning the heavenly Manna, he says, “And that which was not injured by fire, [Burning hailstones] simply warmed by a faint sun beam melted away.

Each morning the desert floor was covered with a film of a flaky cellulose substance which looked like coriander seed, and would melt and breed worms and stink if left out in the sun, and yet could be preserved when cooked, and tasted like biscuits mixed with the purest of olive oils.

Carbohydrates are any of a group of chemical compounds, including sugars, starches, and cellulose, containing carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen only, [of which there was an ample supply in the cloud from the volcanic explosion] with the ratio of hydrogen to oxygen atoms usually 2 : 1. Perhaps, if our scientists could simulate the same conditions that occurred in the stratosphere when the island of Thira exploded, they may come up with an inexpensive and environmentally friendly source of food production to feed the starving millions on the earth.

The early Egyptian magicians or scientists, were able to duplicate some of the miracles of God as performed by Moses. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if our magician/scientists of today were able to perform the more mysterious of God’s miracles as seen in the days of Moses, and provide an abundant and cheap source of food to feed the ever growing population on this earth.

As I have already said, all those things that happened in Egypt at that time, were caused from pressures that had built up over many, many, thousands of years. Where the miracle is found, is in the fact that some invisible entity from some other time dimension, was able to instigate the Exodus, at the precise time that the destructive forces beneath the island of Santorini, were beginning to awake.

And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here that Joseph the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567B.C.

Although radiocarbon dating of an olive tree imbedded in lava would appear to indicate a 1600 BCE eruption of Santorini/Thera, that is, if the lava that it was imbedded in was from the actual eruption that devastated the island and its surrounding districts and not from an earlier minor lava flow, there are many archeologists who still believe that the date is contradicted by findings in Egyptian and Theran excavations.

Buried Egyptian and Cypriot pottery found on Thera were dated to a later period than the radiometric dates for the eruption, and, since the conventional Egyptian chronology has been established by numerous archaeological studies, the exact date of the eruption remains controversial.

Because of all the contradicting evidence, the exact date of the eruption has been difficult to determine. For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at approximately 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young as radiocarbon dating analysis of that olive tree which was buried beneath “A” lava flow from the volcano on Santorini, indicate that the particular lava flow in which the olive tree was imbedded, occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE.

But at Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption. This matches the composition of the Thera eruption.

1540 B.C., is also closer to The date given by Josephus the Historian for the expulsion of the Israeli shepherds in 1567B.C.


Well I saw a tv special claiming also that there were some uh natural desasters which could have caused some of the plagues in the bible including frogs and river drying up and water turning red, infact theres a sickness in Egypt now that can still cause that river to turn red and spurn deseases in it .But just because a few natural desasters could have explained some of the plagues does not mean God is behind it nor Moses, nor the Exodus of Israelites who had become slaves and escaped the Egyptians so on and so forth.....
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Well I saw a tv special claiming also that there were some uh natural desasters which could have caused some of the plagues in the bible including frogs and river drying up and water turning red, infact theres a sickness in Egypt now that can still cause that river to turn red and spurn deseases in it .But just because a few natural desasters could have explained some of the plagues does not mean God is behind it nor Moses, nor the Exodus of Israelites who had become slaves and escaped the Egyptians so on and so forth.....

Red Algae bloom will turn water red and suffocate the fish. The Santorini eruption was hundreds of years too early for Exodus and had been debunked as bad science.

They want to claim a volcanic eruption in the Med could cause the parting of the Red Sea.

Silly and stupid.. They should start with a map.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
Red Algae bloom will turn water red and suffocate the fish. The Santorini eruption was hundreds of years too early for Exodus and had been debunked as bad science.

They want to claim a volcanic eruption in the Med could cause the parting of the Red Sea.

Silly and stupid.. They should start with a map.
Yea right that could not have caused the parting of the red sea. Ive heard some say the red sea was really shallow sea of reeds........
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
Yea right that could not have caused the parting of the red sea. Ive heard some say the red sea was really shallow sea of reeds........


The deseases that get into the red river can cause frogs sickness and the bugs come locusts they can still get some of that today .
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Yea right that could not have caused the parting of the red sea. Ive heard some say the red sea was really shallow sea of reeds........

Its a myth.. never happened. The Red Sea is 7,000 feet deep.

Sinai-Sat-text-9.jpg
 
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