sooda
Veteran Member
Why do you quote from a non-JW site, when discussing JW beliefs?
If you were talking about Jesus Christ's teachings, would you go to JudasIscariot.com?
I think it is a site from former JWs.
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Why do you quote from a non-JW site, when discussing JW beliefs?
If you were talking about Jesus Christ's teachings, would you go to JudasIscariot.com?
Quick example: some believe the Planet Earth will be destroyed by fire, because of 2 Peter 3:7,10.It's only worthless, when one chooses not examine those seeming contradictions closely, and come to determine exactly what the Author meant.
Of course, that entails a lot of study....and humility, I.e., willing to change their pov when one finds their understanding to be flawed.
I agree, I was trying to make the point that the fire of the literal gehenna no longer burned, yet what it burned no longer exists. By the same token the lake of fire will burn till all is consumed, and there is no need for it to burn any longer. The RESULTS of it burning are everlasting, not the fire itself.What makes you think so?
In the Revelation, the "lake of fire" (the equivalent of Gehenna) is yet to consume the devil and his demons after the 1,000 years reign of Christ has concluded with one final test. The devil and his hordes have been imprisoned all that time and are "let loose" for a little while to test the ones who have never had their faith tested. (Revelation 20:1-3; Revelation 20:13-15) Death and the grave (hades) are also bound for this place from which nothing and no one can return. It is God's instrument for eternal destruction.
Don't you "pick and choose" what you want to believe?
How is studying 'anti-biblical' material for your opinions any different to what we do?
You reinforce your beliefs with what others have written...so do we, but we have an additional help that unbelievers do not have......since you have never experienced it
, you will never know how strongly it supplies conviction in the face of strong opposition. This has been manifest from the beginning. It's why the insults of atheists are like water off a duck's back to us.
But I am always amused at the reasons why atheists have to hang around religious forums......who are you trying to convince?
Could there be a little doubt about the existence of a Creator who might hold humanity to an account....? Or do you just like to rain on people's parade, robbing them of hope for a better future? I can't quite figure it out.....
It's only worthless, when one chooses not examine those seeming contradictions closely, and come to determine exactly what the Author meant.
Of course, that entails a lot of study....and humility, I.e., willing to change their pov when one finds their understanding to be flawed.
144,000. - Jehovah's Witnesses
thejehovahswitnesses.org/144000.php
Since Jehovah's Witnesses believe their organization is God's channel of communication, they believe they have 'the truth' about the 144,000 and the 'Great Crowd' or 'other sheep' with a 'earthly hope'. The reason why 144000 go to heaven, is to rule the emerging paradise earth with Jesus for a 1000 years after armageddon.
oh but some do read it saying its to be understood literally. beyond me whyYeah but... They don't read it literally either. They claim Russia is Gog and Magog or JFK is the anti-Christ or the EU is the new Holy Roman Empire.
I think most rational people reading a primer on astronomy, written by men will come to pretty close the same conclusions as to the meaning of the material.
On the other hand, people reading God's bible cannot agree on even the most basic aspects of its author(s) or it's content:
Who wrote the OT?
Who wrote MMLJ?
How long ago did God create the universe?
Did God make Adam & Eve, or is that just allegory?
Did God horrifically drown almost all the people in the world or is that just a morality tale?
But you will continue to refuse to see the difference because it suits your agenda.
What 'anti-biblical' material do you suppose I study? Are you referring to books on evolution, plate tectonics, astronomy? I haven't seen anything in any of those books where the authors state they are anti-biblical. In fact, the authors of most of those books are Christians. Christians who have picked and chosen to take much of the bible as allegory.
Perhaps you are referring to books by biblical scholars who, following years of research, have come to the conclusion that "Matthew, Mark, Luke & John" did not write the Gospels.
The help you are talking about is precisely why millions of Christians all have different ideas about what scripture means. There are 30,000 - 40,000 Christian denominations, all believing differently. Of all those different denominations, the vast majority would say yours is not even a Christian denomination.
So much for "help" that only believers get.
You will probably consider my comments above to be just more of an atheist's insults, but you can't dispute any of it.
Convince? Never. It takes much more than exchanges in a forum to overcome years of indoctrination.
If you consider my comments to be nothing more than my raining on your parade, why do you address comments to me and elicit my responses?
If, as you believe, I can convince no one, how am I robbing anyone of hope for a better future?
On the other hand, you make promises about eternal life when, in the final analysis, that is nothing more than your opinion.
Apparently atheists cannot see something that is in plain sight to any who have really been enlightened by the Bible's teachings...this requires something from God.....his holy spirit. The scriptures themselves are used to separate the sheep from the goats...the wheat from the weeds. This includes those who claim to be Christians but who by their conduct and accepted beliefs, belie that claim. A Christian is not identified by what they say, but according to how closely they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. He covers this in Matthew 7:21-23.....there are "many" that he has never recognized as his own. There are "many" on the road to destruction as well. (Matthew 7:13-14) Only "few" find the road to life...why? Because it is 'cramped and narrow', meaning that its got rules that some might find 'restrictive'. It is narrow because you can't bend the rules to suit yourself.
Those on the wrong path will find out only at the judgment.
Doesn't the same criteria apply to you atheists?
Who created the universe? Who wrote your science textbooks? Someone who can't be wrong?
Is it impossible for a Creator whose power is so immense to exist because science can't measure him?
Is it really impossible for the human race to descend from two humans when you guys believe that all living things descended from a single celled organism that just happened by chance to pop into existence one day and had the ability to eventually become a dinosaur? Where is the proof that this ever happened? It is taken on faith.
Could or would a God of justice perform a mass judgment on humanity as he claims he will do in the near future? Has he done it before? If the answer is "yes" then he can do it again. He is the arbiter over life and death.
We decide what to believe about those things. No one is standing there with a big stick forcing us to make our decisions...we do that all by ourselves. We are granted that freedom because it forms the basis upon which our judgment rests. I don't believe denying that or not will not alter the outcome.
Ah yes...."Christians". There are wheat and weeds...remember? We choose who to believe for our own reasons. It is those reasons which tell God who we really are. Compromise is very handy when one needs to save face.
Same as above.These are the opinions of men. Same as science. Who do we believe?
You have missed the point. Calling yourself a "Christian" is easy....living as one is not, especially in a world where ridicule is used to dissuade people from their faith....it is a favorite tactic to use a person's self worth against them.....but even then, their choices are very telling. Whose acceptance is more important to them?
I believe that every decision we make is a declaration of who we are.
Sometimes it isn't about proving or disproving anything...it is about why we hold the views we do in spite of the proof or lack of it. "Faith" is what makes the difference and what it is that forms the foundation of that faith. Atheists put faith in science, much of which is not provable, and we put faith in God whom we cannot produce as evidence either.....so the choice boils down to what suits our own worldview.
I see a lot of atheists who are refugees from Christendom. I too an a refugee but I could never deny the existence of my Creator....nature itself will not allow it. I abandoned the religious system who can't agree on anything in favor of one that actually sticks to the Bible to furnish the answers to everything, despite what others may believe. That was my choice.
You don't see that it works both ways? Are you not as indoctrinated as you think we are? How many years have you been feeding your own indoctrination?
I guess your reasons for being here are not to convince me of anything, just as I will never convince you of anything....its those 'undecided' whom I hope will consider that their indoctrination in the education system might fight with that spiritual need inside them for meaning and purpose and a reason as why we are in this mess we call life. I am a person who needs reasons and I do not take anything at face value, but prefer to look beneath the surface to ascertain what is reasonable and rational and that resonates with me as a spiritual entity.
It is a hope based on what the Bible promises. If you have no faith in God or the Bible then the promises are empty....but for us they are filled with the hope of something better to come. I would not swap that for the finality and hopelessness of atheism if you gave me 10 million dollars. What have atheists got to look forward to? Just more of this rot....perpetuated by human greed and ineptitude.
Who do they have to trust for their future? The ones who created the present...... no thanks.
Why would God have a mass judgment against the world?
Jesus already paid the price for salvation and the apostate Jews have been punished and had their temple destroyed.
Not "completely" because there is real wisdom therein....
That's what is known as the "pick and choose" method of biblical study.
Everyone gets to pick and choose what they want to believe and what they want to reject. That makes scripture completely worthless.
i reckon they were guilty of idolatry as are those who will never enter god's kingdom for their adultery.
idolatry creates a disparity between one begotten thing and another.
christians who worship jesus above the least of these are guilty of that.
what do you reckon bout that? everybody dance now. the fall of christian idolatry is imminent.
Genesis 49:17
Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Revelation 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
but then
Revelation 12:15
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
millions of Christians all have different ideas about what scripture means. There are 30,000 - 40,000 Christian denominations, all believing differently.
Neither I nor my organization have joined in any wars, nor killed any of my brothers. Those organizations who have...well, their understanding is suspect, right from the start! Since one needs God’s blessing and spirit to understand His Word (Luke 10:21)....those who are disobedient (John 15:12-17) certainly wouldn’t have it!Following all that study and humility on the part of tens of thousands of Christians, they have all come to different understandings of The Truth.
Or do you want to say that only your study and your humility (and that of people who agree with you) came to The Right Truth?
Yes, sad. There was a post I made on this.
Why? Why does Judaism (which has been around much longer), only have 50- 70 branches, Islam only have 50-60 different sects, yet Christendom over 30,000? So many more?!
The answer lies in this question: what better way for an enemy, to hide Truth? The proverbial “needle in a haystack”....simply create a huge haystack!
With men being who they are, there will always be division. Hence, why there are quite a few branches of Islam & Judaism (still less than 100 each); and why there are 195 countries.
But over 30,000 sects of Christendom? It’s like Somebody has been monkeying with it!
Fortunately, the Bible provides the answer....God’s (and mankind’s) Enemy -1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9, whom you and others don’t even think exists! Another master stroke by the Master Manipulator!
Yes, sad. There was a post I made on this.
Why? Why does Judaism (which has been around much longer), only have 50- 70 branches, Islam only have 50-60 different sects, yet Christendom over 30,000? So many more?!
The answer lies in this question: what better way for an enemy, to hide Truth? The proverbial “needle in a haystack”....simply create a huge haystack!
With men being who they are, there will always be division. Hence, why there are quite a few branches of Islam & Judaism (still less than 100 each); and why there are 195 countries.
But over 30,000 sects of Christendom? It’s like Somebody has been monkeying with it!
Fortunately, the Bible provides the answer....God’s (and mankind’s) Enemy -1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9, whom you and others don’t even think exists! Another master stroke by the Master Manipulator!
But yet almost all 30,000 are Sola Scriptura... How does that work?
How is that "hiding a needle in a haystack" when the whole stack is needles..? All the needles are the same. IOW, the bible is the bible.
But yet almost all 30,000 are Sola Scriptura... How does that work?
How is that "hiding a needle in a haystack" when the whole stack is needles..? All the needles are the same. IOW, the bible is the bible.
This thread was started because of a conversation between @shmogie and myself on the identity of the 144,000, but others are free to join in the discussion.
Here is how JW's understand the 144,000 of Revelation.
Beginning with Revelation 14:1-5 we read...
"Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish." (NWT)
Or from the NASB.....
"Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. 4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless."
So who are these 144,000 mentioned specifically only in Revelation?
We see these 144,000 "standing on Mount Zion" with Jesus. This is a heavenly location because "New Jerusalem" is the heavenly seat of God's worship, pictured by the earthly arrangement in one geographical location concerning the fleshly nation of Israel. We are now dealing with a group of Christians who have no particular geographical location as Jesus said. (John 4:21-24) Christians are an international body. The 144,000 are seen standing with Jesus, having an identification "written on their foreheads" as belonging to Christ and his Father.
These are singing a song that only they know, and it says that they have been "purchased from the earth" being bought by the blood of Christ. They are chaste, or spiritually undefiled. They follow the Lamb in whatever direction he leads them.
They are said to be "firstfruits" meaning that these are selected first from among mankind as those who will occupy positions in heaven as 'kings and priests' to rule over redeemed mankind on earth. (Revelation 20:6; Revelation 21:2-4) "Firstfruits" are the pick of the crop, with the secondary fruits to follow.....who are still perfectly acceptable, but not counted as favorably as the firstfruits.
These are resurrected "first" so that the Kingdom arrangement can begin ruling mankind as soon as God, by his Christ, cleanses the earth of all wickedness and those who practice it. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 25:31-33)
Now let's go to Revelation 7 and see who make up this exclusive group of Christ's followers.
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:. . . . .After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” (NWT)
Or NASB
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:. . . . After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
Is this literal Israel? Does literal Israel attribute salvation to Jesus Christ? Do they recognize Jesus as the one seated on the throne with his Father?
At Galatians 6:16 we will see whom the apostle Paul called "the Israel of God"......it was not just the Jews but those of any nation who came to accept Christ as Messiah and savior. This included Jews who saw Jesus as the one sent by God....the one heralded by John the Baptist....and who were the first to be taken into the Christian arrangement. A Fine Shepherd had led them out of a spiritually contaminated pen and into a new one...clean of all spiritual defilements and without the stain of blood on their hands. Later, Gentiles were added as those offered salvation as well, fulfilling God's promise to Abraham that "all nations would bless themselves" by means of the seed that he would send in his lineage. (Genesis 22:18)
By saying that these ones would "bless themselves" he was indicating that they had to take action in order to receive that blessing, just as the first Christians did.
Now notice that there is another group identified as a "great crowd" or "multitude". The first group is numbered but the second group cannot be counted. These are the ones who attribute salvation to God and his son who are seen in heaven surrounded by the 144,000.
Revelation 7:13-15...
"In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne+ will spread his tent over them." (NWT)
Or the NASB...
"Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them."
This second group are said to "come out of the great tribulation" which is to occur at the very end of this present system of things. It is included as part of the "sign" that Jesus gave to indicate that he was ruling in his Kingdom. (Matthew 24:3; Matthew 24:21) This meant that Christ's rulership was not to bring peace immediately....rather the opposite, as the Psalmist indicated in Psalm 110:1-2. Messiah was to "rule in the midst of his enemies".
So we see the 144,000 as "spiritual" Israelites, not fleshly Israelites unless they individually come to Christ and acknowledge him as Messiah. (Acts 10:34-35; Romans 2:28-29)
Those waiting for literal Israel to be converted to Christianity at the last moment, will be disappointed I believe.
They have had almost 2,000 years to think it over and to this day as a nation, they have not acknowledged 'the one who came in Jehovah's name'. (Matthew 23:37-39) They have found countless reasons to keep denying him.
So what do others believe with regard to the identity of the 144,000?
Yes, sad. There was a post I made on this.
Why? Why does Judaism (which has been around much longer), only have 50- 70 branches, Islam only have 50-60 different sects, yet Christendom over 30,000? So many more?!
The answer lies in this question: what better way for an enemy, to hide Truth? The proverbial “needle in a haystack”....simply create a huge haystack!
With men being who they are, there will always be division. Hence, why there are quite a few branches of Islam & Judaism (still less than 100 each); and why there are 195 countries.
But over 30,000 sects of Christendom? It’s like Somebody has been monkeying with it!
Fortunately, the Bible provides the answer....God’s (and mankind’s) Enemy -1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9, whom you and others don’t even think exists! Another master stroke by the Master Manipulator!