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Identifying the 144,000

cataway

Well-Known Member
LOL, the Catholics have written their own personal scriptures, called tradition.

Who are these mainline Protestant churches you talk about ?

The largest group of Protestants in America are Evangelicals, and I assure you, Revelation is studied and is part of our belief structure.
yes many people do read the book . they fail when they try to make it literal
 

sooda

Veteran Member
LOL, the Catholics have written their own personal scriptures, called tradition.

Who are these mainline Protestant churches you talk about ?

The largest group of Protestants in America are Evangelicals, and I assure you, Revelation is studied and is part of our belief structure.

You think Revelation is all in the future?

Premillennial dispensationalists such as Scofield forecast a period of tribulation and a millennium when Jesus Christ returned to earth before the final judgment.

A dispensation is “a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God,” he said.

Of seven dispensations in the biblical construct, the sixth outlined Jews’ return to Israel.

The seventh and final dispensation governed the unfolding of the millennium and the end of time. Scofield also highlighted the concept of the Rapture, the ascent to heaven by Christian believers, in his notes about Thessalonians 4:17.

continued
https://www.historynet.com/c-i-scofield-true-believer.htm
 

sooda

Veteran Member
yes many people do read the book . they fail when they try to make it literal

Yeah but... They don't read it literally either. They claim Russia is Gog and Magog or JFK is the anti-Christ or the EU is the new Holy Roman Empire.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I understand that this is what a lot of people believe...but this is spiritual Israel, not literal Israel.

Please refer to the OP where this is explained.
I don't believe the Bible would go to such great detail as to delineate the exact number from each tribe of Israel if the intention was not meant to be literal Israel. I wonder why the Watchtower would practice such inconsistent interpretation within ONE verse. How can the number 144,000 be interpreted literally and then in the same sentence a switch is made with regard to Israel...which is then interpreted spiritually? That is not the way to read the scriptures from my perspective.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I don't believe the Bible would go to such great detail as to delineate the exact number from each tribe of Israel if the intention was not meant to be literal Israel. I wonder why the Watchtower would practice such inconsistent interpretation within ONE verse. How can the number 144,000 be interpreted literally and then in the same sentence a switch is made with regard to Israel...which is then interpreted spiritually? That is not the way to read the scriptures from my perspective.

This may help.

Revelation 7 and 14, On the 144,000
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
You think Revelation is all in the future?

Premillennial dispensationalists such as Scofield forecast a period of tribulation and a millennium when Jesus Christ returned to earth before the final judgment.

A dispensation is “a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God,” he said.

Of seven dispensations in the biblical construct, the sixth outlined Jews’ return to Israel.

The seventh and final dispensation governed the unfolding of the millennium and the end of time. Scofield also highlighted the concept of the Rapture, the ascent to heaven by Christian believers, in his notes about Thessalonians 4:17.

continued
https://www.historynet.com/c-i-scofield-true-believer.htm
Did I say Revelation is all in the future ? no. I have a Scofield study Bible. Many Christians are not dispesationalists.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I don't believe the Bible would go to such great detail as to delineate the exact number from each tribe of Israel if the intention was not meant to be literal Israel. I wonder why the Watchtower would practice such inconsistent interpretation within ONE verse. How can the number 144,000 be interpreted literally and then in the same sentence a switch is made with regard to Israel...which is then interpreted spiritually? That is not the way to read the scriptures from my perspective.

Scripture and its interpretation is largely a matter of opinion. One 'scholar' differs from another in how they understand the application of the verses. For us, the "Israel of God" that Paul describes in Galatians 6:16, is not literal Israel as other scriptures indicate quite clearly. Scripture interprets scripture for us.

Because that literal nation, with a long history of rebellion and punishment, failed to live up to their willing acceptance of God's law and were clearly complicit in the death of their Messiah, there was a clear statement from Jesus that because of their serial refusal to be corrected, once God had fulfilled his obligation to them by producing their Messiah, he "abandoned" them as his people and chose a new nation under the leadership of His son. (Matthew 23:37-39) A new 'nation', under a new covenant, which Israel rejected and still do.

As we understand Revelation, the delineation of the "tribes" is simply an indication of the order for which God is renowned. The 144,000 are all bound for heaven with positions in a governmental arrangement that would reflect the order that ruling the whole world would require. The order seen in literal Israel shows how important order is to God.

The reason why we believe it is a literal number is because it is contrasted with an infinite number in Revelation 7, where 144,000 are seen in heaven with the Lamb, but an unnumbered "great crowd" are seen 'coming out of the great tribulation, which occurs on earth. (Revelation 7:13-14; Matthew 24:21)

The way all we see scripture, is largely a matter of how we want to see it, to fit in with our chosen religious worldview. We are free to see it as we wish....that is how God determines where we stand on the issue of his worship in this time of the end, and what is in our heart.

That is how we see it.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
144,000. - Jehovah's Witnesses
thejehovahswitnesses.org/144000.php
Since Jehovah's Witnesses believe their organization is God's channel of communication, they believe they have 'the truth' about the 144,000 and the 'Great Crowd' or 'other sheep' with a 'earthly hope'. The reason why 144000 go to heaven, is to rule the emerging paradise earth with Jesus for a 1000 years after armageddon.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
...
The way we see scripture, is largely a matter of how we want to see it, to fit in with our chosen religious worldview. We are free to see it as we wish....that is how God determines where we stand on the issue of his worship in this time of the end, and what is in our heart.

That is how we see it.

That's what is known as the "pick and choose" method of biblical study.

Everyone gets to pick and choose what they want to believe and what they want to reject. That makes scripture completely worthless.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
...


That's what is known as the "pick and choose" method of biblical study.

Everyone gets to pick and choose what they want to believe and what they want to reject. That makes scripture completely worthless.
The truth is there in the Bible, it is very simple.

Those who choose poorly will live to regret it.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
...

That's what is known as the "pick and choose" method of biblical study.

Don't you "pick and choose" what you want to believe? How is studying 'anti-biblical' material for your opinions any different to what we do? You reinforce your beliefs with what others have written...so do we, but we have an additional help that unbelievers do not have......since you have never experienced it, you will never know how strongly it supplies conviction in the face of strong opposition. This has been manifest from the beginning. It's why the insults of atheists are like water off a duck's back to us.

Everyone gets to pick and choose what they want to believe and what they want to reject. That makes scripture completely worthless.

Ah, but that is where you are mistaken....scripture becomes the catalyst for belief or lack of it. It provides the basis for what we believe, just as the writings of scientists provide the basis for what you want to believe. It also provides the fuel for opposition, just as the reverse is true for us. We all choose...for our own reasons.

But I am always amused at the reasons why atheists have to hang around religious forums......who are you trying to convince?

Could there be a little doubt about the existence of a Creator who might hold humanity to an account....? Or do you just like to rain on people's parade, robbing them of hope for a better future? I can't quite figure it out.....:shrug:
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
144,000. - Jehovah's Witnesses
thejehovahswitnesses.org/144000.php
Since Jehovah's Witnesses believe their organization is God's channel of communication, they believe they have 'the truth' about the 144,000 and the 'Great Crowd' or 'other sheep' with a 'earthly hope'. The reason why 144000 go to heaven, is to rule the emerging paradise earth with Jesus for a 1000 years after armageddon.
Why do you quote from a non-JW site, when discussing JW beliefs?

If you were talking about Jesus Christ's teachings, would you go to JudasIscariot.com?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
...


That's what is known as the "pick and choose" method of biblical study.

Everyone gets to pick and choose what they want to believe and what they want to reject. That makes scripture completely worthless.
It's only worthless, when one chooses not to examine those seeming contradictions closely, and come to determine exactly what the Author meant.

Of course, that entails a lot of study....and humility, I.e., willing to change their pov when one finds their understanding to be flawed.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
That's what is known as the "pick and choose" method of biblical study.

Everyone gets to pick and choose what they want to believe and what they want to reject. That makes scripture completely worthless.

The truth is there in the Bible, it is very simple.

Which Truth?

Whose Truth?

Your Truth?

Your Truth is different from the Truth of Millions of others who find Their Truth in the same scripture.

Those who choose poorly will live to regret it.

I will live to regret it? Does that mean I will see HELL before I die?
Cool! I'll report back and let you know what I find.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Which Truth?

Whose Truth?

Your Truth?

Your Truth is different from the Truth of Millions of others who find Their Truth in the same scripture.



I will live to regret it? Does that mean I will see HELL before I die?
Cool! I'll report back and let you know what I find.
No, there is only one truth, ¨ I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father, but by me ¨
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Scripture and its interpretation is largely a matter of opinion. One 'scholar' differs from another in how they understand the application of the verses. For us, the "Israel of God" that Paul describes in Galatians 6:16, is not literal Israel as other scriptures indicate quite clearly. Scripture interprets scripture for us.

.
I believe scripture interprets scripture. Galatians 6:16 is the only place in Paul's letters or the NT where that phrase the "Israel of God" is used, where he was talking about circumcision of the flesh as opposed to circumcision of the heart through faith in Christ. The first Christians who believed the gospel by faith were Jewish believers...in other words the Israel of God - real, actual Jews who truly believed and followed God's revealed gospel message by faith.

I don't see that what the Watchtower does by claiming Jehovah's Witnesses to be spiritual Israel is any different from the Catholic church or other replacement theology denominations do by claiming to be the "Israel of God" having replaced the literal real Israel.
 
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