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Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
What do you make of Psalms 20:6?
Psalms 20:5-9 Those anointed who trust in the Salvation (H3444) that comes from God, and not in man; who call on the true essence of God when the Holy Fire comes, will be here after.

The demons (Rephaim) will fall on that day, and not rise again (Isaiah 26:14); whereas those who accept the true King can stay in reality (Isaiah 33:11-22).

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Also, instead of smothered, I was thinking of something more like a tsunami.. like a wave of destruction... what do u think?
If I'm translating, I'm generally trying to give the easiest word possible, applicable in the most applications.

I agree in some of the floods a Tsunami could be a literal definition of what took place, and thus a form of smothering with water is applied.

There was a verse i just looked at where they ransacked a wall, and it made sense they flooded it or smothered it in English; so what you're saying makes sense - thank you for the perspective.
I finished going through all 160. It was actually a fun learning exercise. I'm going to type it up. If you have time, I would appreciate your feedback.
Yes will have a look if you tag me, always willing to question.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
If Isaiah's audience is Jewish people that lived at the time when these words were spoken, then it makes sense that Isaiah is speaking about the nation of Israel.

If Isaiah's audience is future Christians, and Isaiah is speaking prophetically, then almost anything is possible. And I can imagine many messianic belief systems will find support in the book of Isaiah.

Now for answer your 2 statements about Isaiah - it may shock you.

I will show you that the prophet Isaiah and the Lord God addresses his chosen ones in the future with a specific location.

Isaiah 11:11 New International Version (NIV)
In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.

This particular verse was fulfilled after the Lord Jesus was taken up to heaven
and the apostles preached the gospel

CNM33-ApostlesFate.gif


The map clearly shows where the apostles propagated the Lord Jesus Christ church and thus was the fulfillment of Isaiah 11:11 -this is the extent of the First Century Church of Christ.

Isaiah 24:15 New International Version (NIV)
Therefore in the east give glory to the Lord;
exalt the name of the Lord, the God of Israel,
in the islands of the sea.

mapeast.jpg

The center would be Israel
The Islands west of Israel would be the Mediterranean Greek Islands, Crete and Malta
Where is the Lord God of Israel is exalted in the east islands of the sea?
It would be the Philippines!
The Philippines is being referred to in Isaiah 24:15 which Isaiah wrote in the 8th century BCE.
Amazing! Our Lord God is awesome!

Psalm 47:2 New International Version (NIV)
For the Lord Most High is awesome,
the great King over all the earth.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Now for answer your 2 statements about Isaiah - it may shock you.

I will show you that the prophet Isaiah and the Lord God addresses his chosen ones in the future with a specific location.

Isaiah 11:11 New International Version (NIV)
In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.

This particular verse was fulfilled after the Lord Jesus was taken up to heaven
and the apostles preached the gospel

CNM33-ApostlesFate.gif


The map clearly shows where the apostles propagated the Lord Jesus Christ church and thus was the fulfillment of Isaiah 11:11 -this is the extent of the First Century Church of Christ.

Isaiah 24:15 New International Version (NIV)
Therefore in the east give glory to the Lord;
exalt the name of the Lord, the God of Israel,
in the islands of the sea.

View attachment 28259
The center would be Israel
The Islands west of Israel would be the Mediterranean Greek Islands, Crete and Malta
Where is the Lord God of Israel is exalted in the east islands of the sea?
It would be the Philippines!
The Philippines is being referred to in Isaiah 24:15 which Isaiah wrote in the 8th century BCE.
Amazing! Our Lord God is awesome!

Psalm 47:2 New International Version (NIV)
For the Lord Most High is awesome,
the great King over all the earth.
Thank you for this. I will spend some time reviewing it. It is very very cool.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Whether or not Israel has a mouth, the point is that we've established it can't be Jesus since he did open his mouth.

Except that as we established just above, it can't be him, since he opened his mouth.

The Servant of Isaiah is the same as the sensible slave that Jesus speaks of in the New Testament. The servant is not Israel or Jesus. Jesus is the master of that slave or servant.

Matthew 24:45-51 Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. Truly I say to you, that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘my master is not coming for a long time,’ and shall begin to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and shall cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; weeping shall be there and the gnashing of teeth.

Jesus gives a few hints. He says that John; youngest apostle, will remain until he returns. Jesus does not say John will not die, but rather he will remain until he returns. John will go on to see Jesus coming in a Vision. John then writes his vision in Revelations.

Jesus treats John as a baby brother, telling Mary and John to accept each other as mother and son. In the Suffering Servant, the mother of the Servant is sent away. The Servant reunites with a mother, via Mary. John will come a second time, after dies. The Servant is a type of mental reincarnation of John; visionary.

One key to understanding this is to address Satan. Satan is not thrown from Heaven until the prophesy of Revelation, which were written by John, decades after the death of Jesus. This means Satan had a voice and authority in heaven up to these prophesy. In the old Testament, Satan was like a chief operating officer or CEO, for God. Satan was charge of the earth and humans up to his dismissal in Revelations.

Revelation 12:7–10 (NIV) Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

The atrocities of the old Testament, including eye for an eye, was part of Satan's authority as CEO, on behalf of God. Satan was in paradise during the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This tree symbolizes law. Satan wrote many of the laws of the Old Testament, as CEO. This is sanctioned by God, by his presence in Heaven and his access to God. This relationship between Satan and God, does not change until years after the Resurrection of Jesus. While Jesus was alive on earth, even Jesus was confronted with the sanctioned authority of Satan.

During the temptation of Jesus, by Satan in the wilderness, Satan offers Jesus all the wealth and power of the nations if he would bow down and serve Satan. Satan was in charge of all the earthy things like power and wealth at that time. Jesus never denies Satan has this authority. If Jesus had accepted the offer, he would have become the Messiah expected in the old Testament; powerful, rich and able to conquer all the enemies of Israel. Satan offers him that.

However, Jesus refuses the offer. Jesus was not accepted by Israel as the Messiah, because he refused all the expected flash and bling; authority under the CEO Satan. Jesus chooses a different path which would supersede Satan. Not too long later, Satan's power is cut off in heaven and Satan is cast to the earth. The power of Satan remains, but he is no longer sanctioned by heaven. This transition of Satan, from the seat of heavenly power, will become the suffering for the suffering servant.

When Satan was allowed in Heaven; old testament, his influence, such as the violence, in ancient times, was allowable. He was like a natural impulse, similar to natural instinct; sanctioned by Heaven. Nobody get upset if the lion kills to eat. This was treated the same way.

But when Satan is dispatched from Heaven, the same actions, are no longer the same in terms of being sanctioned as natural instinct; survival of the fittest. The suffering Servant sees this, but it is not clear how one is to proceed from there, since traditions once sanctioned by Heaven, no longer works for God.

The analogy is say a you work for a large corporation. The CEO is well liked and personable. You like your job and believe the company is at its prime; Rome. The board of directors fires the CEO and replaces him with a new person. The old CEO is still the same person, with the same ideas, but he is no longer sanctioned by the board as the CEO.

Mixed loyalties will result, with many employees refusing to cooperate with the new CEO. They want things to stay the same, as when Satan was sanctioned by God. This was the glory days. The sensible slave will follow the new decision of the board; heaven, but this creates problem for him at work. His station as a slave; low level employee, requires he go along with the employee strike. Yet he sees the future and has to convince all, of the benefits of a future, that is not yet visible.

The servant will bear their iniquities, since their heart is right with respect to a once optimized known; past and present, but are blindly opposed to the better future they cannot yet see. The branch and root of Jesse has to grow and evolve to be able to give them their food at the proper time. But this path is without rewards, thanks and even direction, so he is often tempted to stop and become one of the guys who lives in the moment. But he heeds the warning.

When Satan is thrown from heaven, he pursues the Divine woman who gives birth to a son who is caught up to the throne of God. Mary's new son, as sanctioned by Jesus, is John; spirit of John. The Divine woman is the soul of the Servant; his patience and wisdom. His soul is stuck in a state of suspension, pursed by Satan; old ways, until one day he finds his place. He is eventually lifted up, and made to stand on two feet as a man, with a human mind; White Horseman.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
It is the Jewish position that it is Israel
It it the Christian position that it is Jesus
It is the Atheist position that it is not Israel not Jesus because what is the Bible to them anyway?
Well, the OP here is a Christian whose position it is that it's Israel. And I think you will find more than just that one. As well as a startling number of atheists who believe it to be Israel.

Israel doesn't have a mouth
Did violence
Hence Isaiah 53 disqualifies Israel twice as the suffering servant.
Jesus had a mouth
opened it.
Hence Isaiah 53 disqualifies Jesus twice from being the suffering servant.

Is that how Jews interpret their Tanakh?
No, that's how you interpret our Tanach. I'm just applying your method to the verse.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
If we read Psalms 89:19-21 the Lord chooses from among men someone to be his 'Arm'; so that God can 'exalt' that person, and has chosen David...

In Isaiah 52:13-14 my servant is chosen from among men, and anointed to be above others.

The 'person' is anointed by God (chosen to be the Messiah); which makes them then glorified (visage) more than any of the sons of Adam.

Understand the confusion is as some are so busy putting themselves in the text, they've rejected David as the Messiah, and now don't want to accept everyone could be wrong...

Yet literally WW3 is soon, and after mankind is destroyed, only the Godly will remain or we could question the text properly between us, and bring mankind to know God?

Continuing the song of Moses in Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118 paraphrases it using the term Yeshua (Salvation), specifically to express that the Salvation of the Lord becomes the Chief Corner Stone...

Thus to even state could we remove Yeshua (Salvation) from Psalm 118, is missing the point of the Tanakh.

Psalms 118:14-15 Yah is my strength and song. He has become my salvation. (H3444) (15) The voice of rejoicing and salvation (H3444) is in the tents of the righteous. “The right hand of Yahweh does valiantly.

Psalms 118:21-22 I will give thanks to you, for you have answered me, and have become my salvation. (H3444) (22) The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.


Here is a list of reasons that Israel doesn't qualify as the identity of Isaiah 53:
  • 1: They did not fulfill Isaiah 53:1 which links with Isaiah 28:9-19 (rumor to rumor), and the 'arm of the lord' in Isaiah 52:10 (Yeshuat Eloeinhu) + Psalms 98
  • 2: They were seen as a majestic nation, which was desired by many; they still are presented as a chosen people, which is desired by many.
  • 3: They are not in a depressed state, and not disliked by people; that is a self loathing statement, people like the Jews.
  • 4: They have not carried anyone's suffering or sins; they have been cursed, yet not that anyone acknowledges that, and sees them as accursed.
  • 5: They have not been pierced for anyone's sins, they've not been crushed/put to death/tortured as a sin offering for anyone else.
  • 6: They have not had everyone's sins put on them; tho they might have helped confuse all the sheep, yet they're not directly responsible.
  • 7: They have not been silent as they were slaughtered, neither was it done in the form of a sin offering.
  • 8: The disobedience of the 'people' is the Hebrew people; yet then they can't be the person who is cut off from the land of the living for their sins.
  • 9: They were not put to death with the wicked or rich, and are clearly not free of violence or deceit.
  • 10: They were put to death for part of the plan, yet not as a sin offering.
  • 11: They haven't carried anyone's sins, their knowledge has not lead many to righteousness, neither have they arrived at the light from their actions of being put to death.
  • 12: They haven't got an inheritance to share with the strong, they've not continued teaching the things of God until death, and then acted as an intercessor for people's sins.
Isaiah 5:3 “Now, inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, please judge between me and my vineyard.

Like we've already discussed, denying the Lord, Law, Messiah, just to make Israel a chosen nation above all of that; means everyone will get nothing according to the Tanakh.

In my opinion. :innocent:
Look, I know we've hashed through a lot of this in the past when I've had more time and energy to play around with you. I don't think there's any common ground between me and someone who blithely unaware of historical and current antisemitism that can be found without the help of a psychologist.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
The Servant of Isaiah is the same as the sensible slave that Jesus speaks of in the New Testament. The servant is not Israel or Jesus. Jesus is the master of that slave or servant.
No, it's not. it's Israel. And I'm not really sure why you'd think I'd be interested in reading the following sermon you've provided sources out of the fabrications of the NT.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
common ground
Common ground comes from trying to understand alternate perspectives, and to reason things out.

Since not found you trying to understand the Tanakh properly, we won't find common ground.
energy to play around with you.
Wow thank God was sent back before the Messianic Age to tests for hypocrites.

Was going to add at the end of our last post, 'please be aware you are answering for the Jewish people' - your answer is condescending, and unacceptable.
help of a psychologist.
The idea of having very little clue about prophecy globally, which i was taught by God as a child, before ever reading your books...

Then you have the audacity to call the person with the name of the Messiah insane - good luck with Judgement day soon.

Still got to show the fallacies presented on the forum by fake Jews standing against the Tanakh - which is prophesied here:

Revelation 3:9-12 Behold, I give some of the synagogue of Satan, of those who say they are Jews, and they are not, but lie. Behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. (10) Because you kept my command to endure, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, which is to come on the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (11) I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown. (12) He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar (Sandalphon) in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God (Zion - Psalms 146:10, Psalms 147:12, Isaiah 52:7), the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name (Sananda).

In my opinion.
:innocent:
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Well, the OP here is a Christian whose position it is that it's Israel. And I think you will find more than just that one. As well as a startling number of atheists who believe it to be Israel.


Jesus had a mouth
opened it.
Hence Isaiah 53 disqualifies Jesus twice from being the suffering servant.


No, that's how you interpret our Tanach. I'm just applying your method to the verse.

Idiomatic expression.

 
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