They Are Not Christians!

[Hockeycowboy]

@Dan Mellis , this statement from @Deeje --

Did it ever occur to you that God just might hate 'destructive, divisive and harmful' religion as much as you do? He has promised to eliminate it...does that surprise you?

-- is exactly what the Bible teaches, the Harlot description of Revelation 17 & 18 fits false religion to a tee.

If there is only ONE Creator, it would stand to reason there is only ONE way to worship Him acceptably. That would mean all other forms of worship are counterfeit. And the Scriptures reveal that God has an Enemy (Exodus 7:10-11)....what better way for him to hide truth, than to make so many counterfeits? -- Revelation 12:9.

The proverbial "needle in a haystack".

How can a person hope to search, then? By applying Jesus' statement @ John 13:34-35, is a start. If God is the Creator of "every nation of men" (Acts of the Apostles 17:26), it's reasonable to conclude His worshippers would have concern for all people...even their enemies. (Matthew 5:44)

That eliminates many religions!

 

[Dan Mellis]

What do you think the Bible says about Hell?

Depends on how you interpret it. Hell can be literally translated by some definitions as "grave", so by that definition literally everyone will be in hell until the ressurection.

The more traditional notion of hell is given in revelation 20:14, which is that it is reserved for those who have rejected God and his ways. I reject both as they are immoral concepts, which is a different argument if you wanted to get into it. My point is, Hell isn't just for the wicked, but also for the good who don't believe.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Non believers have as much right to state their POV as religionists, especially those of us who were believers once, but came to the conclusion religion is a meaningless human construction,

Almost all of it is....but it's origins and support "run deeper", if you will, than humans.

It's interesting, though, that much of what the Bible calls "worship of God" is about our love and concern for others.

 

[Dan Mellis]

@Dan Mellis , this statement from @Deeje --

If there is only ONE God, it would stand to reason there is only ONE way to worship Him acceptably. That would mean all other forms of worship are counterfeit. And the Scriptures reveal that God has an Enemy (Exodus 7:10-11)....what better way for him to hide truth, than to make so many counterfeits? -- Revelation 12:9.

The proverbial "needle in a haystack".

How can a person hope to search, then? By applying Jesus' statement @ John 13:34-35, is a start. If God is the Creator of "every nation of men" (Acts of the Apostles 17:26), it's reasonable to conclude His worshippers would have concern for all people...even their enemies. (Matthew 5:44)

That eliminates many religions!

This proposition starts with the requirement that you accept that the is a god. If you reject that premise, (which you can, applying hitchens razor) the argument is without merit.

However, the second point says that there is only one way to worship acceptably... says who? The hundreds of Christian sects who all worship in different ways? If thats the case, how do we seperate between the correct christian sects? Going by the bible, the Westboro Baptist Church seems to do it quite accurately. I've been told their outlook isn't very Christian... but it's more Christian than the softened modern position going by the "one book that matters".

 

[Dan Mellis]

@Dan Mellis , this statement from @Deeje --

If there is only ONE God, it would stand to reason there is only ONE way to worship Him acceptably. That would mean all other forms of worship are counterfeit. And the Scriptures reveal that God has an Enemy (Exodus 7:10-11)....what better way for him to hide truth, than to make so many counterfeits? -- Revelation 12:9.

The proverbial "needle in a haystack".

How can a person hope to search, then? By applying Jesus' statement @ John 13:34-35, is a start. If God is the Creator of "every nation of men" (Acts of the Apostles 17:26), it's reasonable to conclude His worshippers would have concern for all people...even their enemies. (Matthew 5:44)

That eliminates many religions!

This proposition starts with the requirement that you accept that the is a god. If you reject that premise, (which you can, applying hitchens razor) the argument is without merit.

However, the second point says that there is only one way to worship acceptably... says who? The hundreds of Christian sects who all worship in different ways? If thats the case, how do we seperate between the correct christian sects? Going by the bible, the Westboro Baptist Church seems to do it quite accurately. I've been told their outlook isn't very Christian... but it's more Christian than the softened modern position going by the "one book that matters".

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Depends on how you interpret it. Hell can be literally translated by some definitions as "grave", so by that definition literally everyone will be in hell until the ressurection.

The more traditional notion of hell is given in revelation 20:14, which is that it is reserved for those who have rejected God and his ways. I reject both as they are immoral concepts, which is a different argument if you wanted to get into it. My point is, Hell isn't just for the wicked, but also for the good who don't believe.

Exactly right! Ecclesiastes 9:10 applies to everyone who reads it!

OK, I noticed something... it's not just "for the good who don't believe."
Jacob believed -- didn't he? -- yet he went to hell, too. All in hell, will get a chance at life again....even the "unrighteous".

 

[Hockeycowboy]

This proposition starts with the requirement that you accept that the is a god. If you reject that premise, (which you can, applying hitchens razor) the argument is without merit.

However, the second point says that there is only one way to worship acceptably... says who? The hundreds of Christian sects who all worship in different ways? If thats the case, how do we seperate between the correct christian sects? Going by the bible, the Westboro Baptist Church seems to do it quite accurately. I've been told their outlook isn't very Christian... but it's more Christian than the softened modern position going by the "one book that matters".

Did you not read my last paragraph?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@Dan Mellis : "Going by the Bible"? Ok....Matthew 5:44; Philippians 2:3-4. (Read the contexts. These attitudes are for Christians, not ancient Israelites who had borders to defend.)

Sort of reveals Westboro for what they're not.

 

[Deeje]

Non believers have as much right to state their POV as religionists, especially those of us who were believers once, but came to the conclusion religion is a meaningless human construction,

Of course they do, which is why I said "there is room in the world for all of us"...its just that so many have trouble sharing the planet with those who disagree with them.

I usually find that those who came to the conclusion that religion is "a meaningless human construct" never really read or understood the Bible or God's purpose for our existence. If they got their information from the "church" system then any wonder. If ever there was "a meaningless human construct", Then that is it IMO.

I have no problem presenting or receiving points of view, but I do object to those who want to force their views on others. Present them by all means but in a non-threatening way. People have forgotten how to be civil because the internet is faceless anonymity. People should keep responses in good humor and not take themselves so seriously. Its a big planet you know....

 

[Dan Mellis]

LOL...vigilantes....oh great. You come in swinging without even getting to know the person you are speaking to. Not very civilized is it. Common among the godless though I've noticed. Personally I like to point out how ludicrous atheism is....but to each his own.

One day you may get a tap on the shoulder that you are not expecting....now you can expect it....OK?

I think perhaps you need to lighten up some. There is room in the world for all of us unless you want to live in a dictatorship. If you value your own freedom, then don't seek to rob others of theirs.....its a tad hypocritical don't you think? Who says a world full of atheists would be an improvement anyway?

Did it ever occur to you that God just might hate 'destructive, divisive and harmful' religion as much as you do? He has promised to eliminate it...does that surprise you?

BTW, the people in "the church" pay their taxes like everyone else. The people ARE the church. They support their own church so why the need to be taxed twice?

Not a vigilante, an activist. I'd never harm anyone of take action into my own hands - but I will argue my point and put pressure on government bodies whenever I can.

You're entitled to think atheism is ludicrous, that doesnt affect me. What does affect me is when religion pokes its nose into politics, education and personal life.

Of course there's room for all of us, but lets give our kids a fair playing feild.... but then again if they aren't forced into religion then it would die out so I guess you're against that. The argument for a world without religion is made particularly well by Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens - a world full of atheists wouldn't be perfect (because there aee bad atheists too) but it would be better. Morality is hindered by religion, not enhanced by it. I'm not going to post the argument here as its a seperate topic, but feel free to youtube it!

If God exists as described in the bible, then unfortunately the evidence for him being destructive and divisive and harmful is overwhelming. Modern Christianity has softened its position, but its incongruent witht their core text and the reasons I've seen for this are disingenuous.

People pay their taxes and pay their churches, who don't pay taxes on that income - and are incredibly wealthy as a result. The people ARE NOT the church - the church is an organisation. Thats like saying "wallmart employees pay taxes, and they ARE wallmart, so wallmart shouldn't be taxed twice".

 

[Dan Mellis]

Of course they do, which is why I said "there is room in the world for all of us"...its just that so many have trouble sharing the planet with those who disagree with them.

I usually find that those who came to the conclusion that religion is "a meaningless human construct" never really read or understood the Bible or God's purpose for our existence. If they got their information from the "church" system then any wonder. If ever there was "a meaningless human construct", Then that is it IMO.

I have no problem presenting or receiving points of view, but I do object to those who want to force their views on others. Present them by all means but in a non-threatening way. People have forgotten how to be civil because the internet is faceless anonymity. People should keep responses in good humor and not take themselves so seriously. Its a big planet you know....

Unfortunately, good humour is a veil for the pernicious view you have - that being "anyone who doesn't believe has just got it wrong."

We can be polite and civil, but that doesnt mean we should accept assertions that we are wrong just because you think you're right.

Before you say - my position is that I'm not convinced, and I think its more likely that there's no god. I'm not all out asserting that you're wrong, just that you have work to do if you want to claim you're right.

 

[sooda]

@Dan Mellis , this statement from @Deeje --


-- is exactly what the Bible teaches, the Harlot description of Revelation 17 & 18 fits false religion to a tee.

If there is only ONE God, it would stand to reason there is only ONE way to worship Him acceptably. That would mean all other forms of worship are counterfeit. And the Scriptures reveal that God has an Enemy (Exodus 7:10-11)....what better way for him to hide truth, than to make so many counterfeits? -- Revelation 12:9.

The proverbial "needle in a haystack".

How can a person hope to search, then? By applying Jesus' statement @ John 13:34-35, is a start. If God is the Creator of "every nation of men" (Acts of the Apostles 17:26), it's reasonable to conclude His worshippers would have concern for all people...even their enemies. (Matthew 5:44)

That eliminates many religions!

Israel is the Whore of Babylon.. If you are opposed to religion dividing people quit changing scripture.

[Israel] you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot because of your fame and poured out your harlotry on every passer-by who might be willing… (Ezekiel 16:15).

 

[sooda]

From Moses through the prophets, Israel is repeatedly characterized as an imperious whore.

In more than 80 instances, she is specifically denounced as a harlot or lewd woman.

Isaiah and the other pre-exilic prophets aimed their wrath at Jerusalem: “How the faithful city has become a harlot!" (Isaiah 1:21)

Isaiah denounced apostate Jews as “sons of a sorceress, offspring of an adulterer and a prostitute” (Isaiah 57:3).

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Israel is the Whore of Babylon..

Israel being called a prostitute in Ezekiel, doesn't mean it applies in Revelation. Was she the only one, ever? No.

The entire description of the Whore of Babylon is found in Revelation 17 & Revelation 18 ...it says "all the merchants of the earth got rich because of her."

That does not apply to Israel.

Revelation 18:24 states "In her was found the blood of....all those who were slaughtered on the Earth."

Again, that cannot mean Israel. For example, you can't blame Israel for WWs I & II....or the American Civil War....or the 100 Year's War....etc., etc. Or, the blood of Abel, for that matter.

It applies to an entity way bigger than any one nation! And the Bible reveals she's going down....by the very ones she supports!

False Religion has done more to alienate people from God, than any other system. Instead of teaching people Jehovah God's (our Creator's) standards, it's made up its own...usually with the goal of reinforcing its own control over humans, or to appease the politics of the countries they reside in.

If you are opposed to religion dividing people quit changing scripture.

Huh? I'm not "changing" anything....I just report the news.
The facts.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Depends on how you interpret it. Hell can be literally translated by some definitions as "grave", so by that definition literally everyone will be in hell until the ressurection.

Yes, Sheol and Hades refer to mankind's common grave....not individual graves, btw...from which all the dead will be resurrected. It's the only interpretation the Bible provides, for Sheol / Hades....for Hell. (The Bible states that even Jesus was there for a little while, after his death, wasn't he?)

 

[oldbadger]

Christianity has many interpretations, people of different doctrines often claim they are the only 'true Christians'. As Christianity has no more credibility than any other religion, in my opinion, the claims are meaningless.

Yep......
That's the way it looked to me at the Christian meeting which caused me to post this thread.

This condition shows itself most intensely when certain Christians will not even take food or drink with others, let alone share it.

And their ideas about what is moral (or not) can be so totally obtuse. Oh well............

 

[oldbadger]

As god isn't likely to exist, the Bible is the product of the human imagination.

What...... all of the bible? All imagination?

I don't think so.

 

[sooda]

Israel being called a prostitute in Ezekiel, doesn't mean it applies in Revelation. Was she the only one, ever? No.

The entire description of the Whore of Babylon is found in Revelation 17 & Revelation 18 ...it says "all the merchants of the earth got rich because of her."

That does not apply to Israel.

Revelation 18:24 states "In her was found the blood of....all those who were slaughtered on the Earth."

Again, that cannot mean Israel. For example, you can't blame Israel for WWs I & II....or the American Civil War....or the 100 Year's War....etc., etc. Or, the blood of Abel, for that matter.

It applies to an entity way bigger than any one nation! And the Bible reveals she's going down....by the very ones she supports!

False Religion has done more to alienate people from God, than any other system. Instead of teaching people Jehovah God's (our Creator's) standards, it's made up its own...usually with the goal of reinforcing its own control over humans, or to appease the politics of the countries they reside in.

Huh? I'm not "changing" anything....I just report the news.
The facts.

Yeah you are.. You are not being thorough.. 80 times Israel if referred to as whore or harlot.

In Revelation 11:8, the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified.

But in Revelation 21:10, the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven.

Revelation 11:8 8Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city-which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt-where also their LORD was crucified.

And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21, the great city is the symbolic whore/city of Babylon.

 

[oldbadger]

Thats not what the bible says...

Have you got any bible quotes about folks going to hell? That might help build on the idea.

 

[oldbadger]

................... religion is a meaningless human construction,

OK......... but is God a human construction?

Just an idea, but do you think that the Universe expanded in to being because something caused it to happen?