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Is it right that Israel Folau should get the sack for his 'Hell awaits gay people' comments?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What if I had a company that was right-wind oriented and I sacked people for saying gay people should be allowed to marry?
Of course, "gay people should be allowed to marry" doesn't encourage hatred or violence toward anyone, so not quite the same thing.

There'd be hell on and people would tell me I am being this that and the other; if people are allowed to say gays can marry, people should be allowed to say that hell awaits them, otherwise it just becomes an echo chamber for leftists and isolates conservatives.
The opposite to "hell awaits gay people" isn't "gay people should get married;" it's something like the Diderot quote "men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
In many situations, however, it comes down to humoring the people who can't see past these things, even though the subject at hand may have no bearing on a person's professional life. So you fire them, and cave to popular public opinion, which gives you a different sort of PR problem from another (albeit minority) angle. For example, people like me may boycott your business from that point on, knowing that your constitution is pretty weak.

Believe me, I get that if something is causing you legal or financial difficulty, then there needs to be some kind of "fix" to go after. But I am sure there are cases where it is just the employer caving to special snowflakes. Oh, how proud they must be.
It's the business owner's decision to decide which course of action is best.
I once ran afoul of some anti-abortion group which threatened me with
protests if I didn't refuse to lease to an abortion doctor. I chose to lease
to whomever I wanted.
I make the decisions about what is best for my business.
And I'm under no obligation to keep an employee who cause it harm.
Only my judgement matters.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
The Australian rugby player is to be sacked after a social media post in which he also said "drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters" should "repent" because "only Jesus saves".

In a statement, Rugby Australia said the post "does not represent the values of the sport and is disrespectful to members of the rugby community", adding that its integrity unit had been "engaged on the matter".

Israel Folau has made similar posts before and managed to escape punishment.

More on this story here: Israel Folau: Rugby bosses meet with player and position is 'unchanged'.

What do you think about his sacking?

Three takeaways from this

1. Folau, who signed a four-year deal with the Waratahs in March and had a deal with Rugby Australia until 2022, escaped punishment for similar comments last year.

2. He's in the public eye and should mind his P's and Q's because people do associate him with the team.

3. If he worked in a factory bottling soda, no one would care.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Code of conduct section 1.6:
Do not make any public comment that is critical of the performance of a match official, player,
team official, coach or employee/officer/volunteer of any club or a Union; or on any matter that
is, or is likely to be, the subject of an investigation or disciplinary process; or otherwise make
any public comment that would likely be detrimental to the best interests, image and welfare of the Game, a team, a club, a competition or Union
.

Code of conduct section 1.7:
Use Social Media appropriately. By all means share your positive experiences of Rugby but do
not use Social Media as a means to breach any of the expectations and requirements of you as
a player contained in this Code or in any Union, club or competition rules and regulations.

The above is taken from: Code of Conduct

For information there is the code in question.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
It's the business owner's decision to decide which course of action is best.
I once ran afoul of some anti-abortion group which threatened me with
protests if I didn't refuse to lease to an abortion doctor. I chose to lease
to whomever I wanted.

I make the decisions about what is best for my business.
And I'm under no obligation to keep an employee who cause it harm.
Only my judgement matters.
I completely agree! Funny that you think I said anything to contradict this.

What I said fits more in line with these little nuggets - when it comes time for me to purchase the goods or services: Only my judgment matters. I make the decisions about what it best for me, and who I think either best deserves my money, or who can provide me the best service without forcing me to set aside my principles. I choose to purchase from whomever I want. And I am under no obligation to buy from anyone who I think wears a butt for a hat.

You see, as with so many other things in life, you have to keep in mind the street runs two ways. You can't just throw things around that you wouldn't want to be hit with yourself. And if you do, there may very well be consequences.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
The tweets were not made while working in a factory and did not affect his ability to bottle sodas.

It wouldn't matter if it was done at the factory or not. The point was a factory worker isn't in the eye of the public and no one would care.

When you are in the eye of the public, and the public associates you with that team on field and off field,, you need to mind your P's and Q's.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
It wouldn't matter if it was done at the factory or not. The point was a factory worker isn't in the eye of the public and no one would care.

When you are in the eye of the public, and the public associates you with that team on field and off field,, you need to mind your P's and Q's.
Do those P's and Q's involve forgetting who you are and what you believe?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
There are 2 extremes not just one. One extreme is that employers today can't easily try out new hires, and they are mired in lawsuits by bad hires. I get that, and I grasp that anybody can sue anybody for anything. The other extreme is that: employers (not my friend Rev but in general) often make extreme claims on our privacy. Not every dam thing is their business even if it might somehow affect their business.

Every employee does things that hurt the employer's business. If we sleep 10% too little we hurt the employer's business. Coffee addictions hurt their business. Being overweight hurts their business. Take a personal day -- hurts their business. Don't like Trump? It hurts their business. Don't have a girlfriend? It hurts their business. Everything we do has some little implication for their business, so they want us to take drug tests, carry spy devices on our bodies. They want our credit histories, our facebook passwords and just about everything. Its an argument for ownership. Its a creeping encroachment on personal space, and its not Ok.

Every employee does not represent the business at all times. When I am not being paid I'm definitely not representing a company. If I'm on salary and I leave the premises I don't represent the company, and I don't owe the company anything.

Now Rev brings up a point that sometimes employees really do represent a company. Fine, they sometimes do; but its farcical to say every employee represents the company especially to claim that we do so "At all times." Its unfair and taking ownership of something that doesn't belong to the company. You can't just tell every employee "You represent us now at all times." That's like saying "We own you."

I agree with everything you have said here.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I completely agree! Funny that you think I said anything to contradict this.
I'm not only slow on the uptake, I also post on RF while eating & watching TV.
That's my excuse, & I'm sticking to it.
What I said fits more in line with these little nuggets - when it comes time for me to purchase the goods or services: Only my judgment matters. I make the decisions about what it best for me, and who I think either best deserves my money, or who can provide me the best service without forcing me to set aside my principles. I choose to purchase from whomever I want. And I am under no obligation to buy from anyone who I think wears a butt for a hat.

You see, as with so many other things in life, you have to keep in mind the street runs two ways. You can't just throw things around that you wouldn't want to be hit with yourself. And if you do, there may very well be consequences.
Detente is so much easier.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The Australian rugby player is to be sacked after a social media post in which he also said "drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters" should "repent" because "only Jesus saves".

In a statement, Rugby Australia said the post "does not represent the values of the sport and is disrespectful to members of the rugby community", adding that its integrity unit had been "engaged on the matter".

Israel Folau has made similar posts before and managed to escape punishment.

More on this story here: Israel Folau: Rugby bosses meet with player and position is 'unchanged'.

What do you think about his sacking?

Here are excerpts from the code of conduct that Israel Folau signed and agreed to.

CODE OF CONDUCT - PLAYERS

1.3 Treat everyone equally, fairly and with dignity regardless of gender or gender identity, sexual orientation, ethnicity, cultural or religious background, age or disability. Any form of bullying, harassment or discrimination has no place in Rugby.

1.7 Use Social Media appropriately. By all means share your positive experiences of Rugby but do not use Social Media as a means to breach any of the expectations and requirements of you as a player contained in this Code or in any Union, club or competition rules and regulations.

1.8 Do not otherwise act in a way that may adversely affect or reflect on, or bring you, your team, club, Rugby Body or Rugby into disrepute or discredit. If you commit a criminal offence, this is likely to adversely reflect on you and your team, club, Rugby Body and Rugby.


All Policies and Guidelines

Israel Folau is in breach of his contract, therefore Rugby Australia are justified in sacking him.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Australian rugby player is to be sacked after a social media post in which he also said "drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters" should "repent" because "only Jesus saves".

In a statement, Rugby Australia said the post "does not represent the values of the sport and is disrespectful to members of the rugby community", adding that its integrity unit had been "engaged on the matter".

Israel Folau has made similar posts before and managed to escape punishment.

More on this story here: Israel Folau: Rugby bosses meet with player and position is 'unchanged'.

What do you think about his sacking?

Of course not. He has a right to his opinion no matter if its a popular one. Now if he starts physically assaulting said people that's a different story.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes he should. He can hold whatever opinion he so chooses. But fact is, he is part of the public face of a brand. If this were on a private message to close friends then nothing would have happened. He shared this on a social media profile that is seen by thousands of fans. Not just a social media account we all use to chat with family and friends. His is technically part of the workplace for him.
He has the right to free speech, not a right to be absolved of the consequences. He said this rather publicly, instead of privately. He chose to publicly endorse a message that is incompatible with that of his employers and did so as their public face. His employers are reacting to already established rules on online etiquette. Hell this sort of thing is taught in schools nowadays. If you’re going to post a message that could get you into hot water with your employer, for goodness sakes make sure it’s private and not “in the workplace” in any shape or form. This tweet was technically in his workspace. It would be the same if someone shared hateful messages among their work colleagues on employer time.
He is no doubt a talented player, perhaps he can talk them down to a suspension and community service.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The Australian rugby player is to be sacked after a social media post in which he also said "drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters" should "repent" because "only Jesus saves".

In a statement, Rugby Australia said the post "does not represent the values of the sport and is disrespectful to members of the rugby community", adding that its integrity unit had been "engaged on the matter".

Israel Folau has made similar posts before and managed to escape punishment.

More on this story here: Israel Folau: Rugby bosses meet with player and position is 'unchanged'.

What do you think about his sacking?

He's a public figure and that kind of message can trigger all kinds of trouble.

And it's daft.

Jesus liked his meat and drink, and could get inebriated. . So much so that the Baptist was worried about what he heard about this. So have a glass of wine on Jesus!

As for this hypocrisy about Gays etc, Jesus never said a word. Sure, 2000 years ago closed couples were ideal because illness could be transmitted through polygamy, but today we have better protections etc.

Thing is, some Christians make a big fuss about polygamy and Gays etc, but I wonder how many Christians have made a big effort to install safety rails or balconies around any of their flats roofs on their homes? The law that speaks against Gays also demands safety rails on flats roofs! (Deut 22:8). Some Christians just Cherry pick what they think is important and discard the other 'non-sacrificial' laws, there are 507 of them!

Yeah........... he doesn't deserve to get off lightly imo.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
All that appears to be being done here is that people with socially conservative and religious views are being shut down and told to keep them to themselves, while their liberal counterparts are allowed to speak freely. No, this isn't alright. It's just culture's way of holding yet another group down just because it's not socially acceptable to have a certain view right now. Sorry, you don't get to do that.
 
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