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Prophecies Aren’t Predictions of the Future

Cleary

God is sovereign and in control <><
lol .... that's okay, I'll anticipate the Rapture of the Church (I believe pre-trib) and ultimate glory ...
even if I die physically before that time ... people need to hear the gospel and be saved .... are you going to snooze ?



................. the coming of Christ

the coming earthly kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ .. Recorded Jun 26 1994

the glorious return of Jesus Christ .. part 1 of 3 .. Recorded Aug 28 1994

the glorious return of Jesus Christ .. part 2 of 3 .. Recorded Sep 04 1994

Revelation 19:11 .. and I saw heaven opened .. and behold .. a white horse .. and he who sat on it is called faithful and true .. and in righteousness he judges and wages war
19:12 .. his eyes are a flame of fire .. and on his head are many diadems .. and he has a name written on him which no one knows except himself
19:13 .. he is clothed with a robe dipped in blood .. and his name is called the Word of God
19:14 .. and the armies which are in heaven .. clothed in fine linen .. white and clean .. were following him on white horses
19:15 .. from his mouth comes a sharp sword .. so that with it he may strike down the nations .. and he will rule them with a rod of iron .. and he treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God .. the Almighty
19:16 .. and on his robe and on his thigh he has a name written . . . KING OF KINGS .. AND LORD OF LORDS
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
lol .... that's okay, I'll anticipate the Rapture of the Church (I believe pre-trib) and ultimate glory ...
even if I die physically before that time ... people need to hear the gospel and be saved .... are you going to snooze ?


Oh dear, that doctrine was invented by Darby, Scofield and Hal Lindsey.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Uhm, no .... you'll find it in Thessalonians

You should study.

The first question that we need to ask here is, "Who is the Apostle Paul writing to?" Who is the "you" that he did not want to be ignorant? The clear and un-refutable answer is the Thessalonian Christians of the first century.

When Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians, he was writing to Thessalonian Christians who lived in the first century. We MUST understand this if we are going to understand what he is saying.

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 1 Thessalonians 4:13 NASB
First of all, who are those who sleep in Yeshua? To understand who they are, we need to know what the "hope" was that the Thessalonian believers had, but that the unsaved didn't have. The "hope" of Israel was the resurrection:

having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Acts 24:15 NASB

continued

The Rapture - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18: Berean Bible Church
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
WHERE does it say that there is also a major fulfillment? Be careful you are NOT assuming something that isn't there.
First of all, the year 70 happened in the first century.
Revelation was written well after the year 70.
The setting for Revelation was for the future (Revelation 1:10) much after the year 70.
Plus, how can anyone say Matthew 24:21 fits the year 70 ______
Thus, that makes the year 70 as the limited or minor fulfillment of the 24th chapter of Matthew.
So, there is No assuming that Revelation 7:14,9 is past but future.
Just as Matthew 25:31-33 is Not past, Not present, but the soon coming future 'time of separation' to take place on Earth.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
First of all, the year 70 happened in the first century.
Revelation was written well after the year 70.
The setting for Revelation was for the future (Revelation 1:10) much after the year 70.
Plus, how can anyone say Matthew 24:21 fits the year 70 ______
Thus, that makes the year 70 as the limited or minor fulfillment of the 24th chapter of Matthew.
So, there is No assuming that Revelation 7:14,9 is past but future.
Just as Matthew 25:31-33 is Not past, Not present, but the soon coming future 'time of separation' to take place on Earth.

John of Patmos identifies himself.. Your brother in tribulation.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Always check to see when the various prophets lived... Most prophecy was written after the fact.
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It is a conjecture to say prophecies of scriptures were written after. Can you prove it?
How? Suggest to present one example to show how it can be proven.


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We don't have a very good understanding of what a prophet is or does. We get a notion that they are future tellers in childhood Sunday school and never look any further.

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The prophecies are concerned with informing humanity about future Revelations of God, so, people be watching and accept the new Revelation when it comes. For instance, in old testament, many prophecies were about Messiah, so, when He comes to save them from Sin, they do not deny it, which they did because they could not recognize that Jesus was that same Messiah Moses spoke of.
Likewise the Prophecies in New testament and the Quran, are with regards to another future Manifestation of God, who Bahais believe Bahaullah is that promised One, which most people did not recognize. In Bahai view, One of the reasons of failing to recognize, is literal interpretations of Prophecies. Now, since prophecies are fulfilled symbolically, they fail to see it, and accept it, in our view.

.
Exodus is a morality tale about redemption and deliverance.. Its not history.
Its prophecies are about future events though in my view.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
First of all, the year 70 happened in the first century.
Revelation was written well after the year 70.
The setting for Revelation was for the future (Revelation 1:10) much after the year 70.
Plus, how can anyone say Matthew 24:21 fits the year 70 ______
Thus, that makes the year 70 as the limited or minor fulfillment of the 24th chapter of Matthew.
So, there is No assuming that Revelation 7:14,9 is past but future.
Just as Matthew 25:31-33 is Not past, Not present, but the soon coming future 'time of separation' to take place on Earth.

It was 42 months of pure horror. Read how Josephus describes the tribulation.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
John of Patmos identifies himself.. Your brother in tribulation.
... and while in tribulation John wrote Revelation. John's tribulation is part the global troubles of Matthew 24:9.
Troubles or tribulation that existed in John's lifetime would also exist past John's lifetime.- Matthew 10:22.
The setting or time frame of Revelation is well past John's lifetime - Revelation 1:10.
Thus, the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 is future. Just as Matthew 25:31-33 is future.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The Bible displays the character of man and certain events that lead us to the final days ...
all seem to be on the table at this time ... keepn watch and anticipating ultimate glory <><
I find the ' ultimate glory ' is the time for the coming time of Jesus' glory time found at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
When Jesus will separate people on Earth as being a figurative humble ' sheep ' or a haughty 'goat'.
The ' sheep ' can remain alive by coming through the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.
Only the upright will remain as per Proverbs 2:21-22.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Prophets aren’t Fortunetellers or Meteorologists (by C. A. Strine)

How does one explain with any intellectual honesty a Second Coming that Jesus said would come soon but didn’t? As Christopher mentioned in the first post, we believe it comes down to how one understands “predictive prophecy.”

We think that the statements about Jesus’ return in the Gospels are prophecies, which aren’t meant to be predictions of future events. Now that really sounds weird.

Except, it isn’t.

When most people read something called prophecy, especially predictive prophecy, they assume that the statements about the future intend to describe accurately what the prophet understands, through divine inspiration, will actually happen in the future.

We tend to think of prophets like divine meteorologists providing a long-term forecast. Predictions of doom and gloom or images of abundant blessing are taken to be statements about what the future will be like. That’s what prophets do: they tell us now about what things will be like then, some time in the future.

Only that’s not what the Old Testament tells us.

The Book of Jeremiah comes closest to giving a model for how predictive prophecy works, and it is rather different than the “predict the future” model.

Indeed, Jeremiah makes it very clear that some predictive prophecy is not meant to come pass at all.

Let’s look at Jeremiah 18:5-10. This passage explains that God reserves the possibility to change course even after the prophet who speaks on God’s behalf predicts blessing or cursing.

Then the word of the LORD came to me: Can I not do with you, O house of Israel, just as this potter has done? says the LORD. Just like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.

In other words, God may not send the predicted punishment if the people repent, or conversely withhold a predicted blessing if the people do evil in God’s sight.

Statements about the future are descriptions of how bad it might be, or how abundant God’s blessing could be. It all depends on what people do.

Prophecies are conditional statements. Predictive prophecies explain what is on offer, not what has already been decided.

This dynamic is highlighted later in Jeremiah (ch. 26, to be exact). After having prophesied the destruction of the Temple—obviously not a popular position in Jerusalem—the priests, the prophets, and all the people condemn Jeremiah to death (vv. 7-9) because of his prediction of doom.

But then the elders of the land recall that Micah had predicted a similar fate for Jerusalem. They also recall that, on that occasion, Hezekiah (the king reigning at that time) didn’t try to eliminate Micah because he was irked by his dire prophecy; rather, the threat of destruction provoked Hezekiah to plead with God to spare Jerusalem.

And God did. Crisis averted.

Micah’s prophecy didn’t come to pass, but drove Hezekiah to change his ways. And that made him a good prophet. A very good one indeed.

Prophecy does not simply seek to predict the future, but to change the present. The potential of future disaster is meant to change current behavior, to motivate people to repent, to turn back to God, and to live in a way that will persuade God to hold back judgment.

Or, when blessing is promised, prophecy aims to encourage people to persevere in following God’s commands, to do so with all the more conviction, and to remind them that backsliding into rebellion might convince God not to bestow the good things offered to them at all.

Prophets want to activate certain behaviors in their audiences, not prognosticate future events. They are like parents warning children against foolish behavior and encouraging good behavior, not weather forecasters attempting to tell you whether or not you’ll need an umbrella at noontime tomorrow.

This is the case around the ancient world and the Old Testament (as we discuss in the book
ir
).

Think, for instance, of the book of Jonah. This prophet is no doubt a comic figure, in a comical book, but surely one with a serious point.

Strine-speaking-header-image-180x180.jpg

C. A. (Casey) Strine
Why does Jonah resist going to Nineveh? Precisely because he knew that alerting the people of this foreign nation to the potential of God’s punishment would cause them to change their ways (Jon 4:1-4). Jonah wanted God to punish Nineveh; he knew his “prediction” of punishment could change their behavior and avoid that outcome; so he ran away.

In the book we show how this same view of prophecy lies beneath passages in Isaiah, 2 Samuel, early Jewish texts, and, as Christopher will explain in the next post, the New Testament too.

In the book we show how this same view of prophecy lies beneath passages in Isaiah, 2 Samuel, early Jewish texts, and, as Christopher will explain in the next post, the New Testament too.

Prophets are not fortunetellers or weather forecasters. They are not claiming to predict an inevitable, unchanging future, but to change the way that people live in the present.

When we read predictive prophecy—in the Old Testament, the Gospels, or elsewhere—we need to ask what it wants to activate us to do, not what it might prognosticate about the future.

As we’ll see in our next post, this is just what New Testament shows us.

[Part 3 coming tomorrow . . . ]

See some of Pete’s popular books: The Bible Tells Me So (HarperOne, 2014), Inspiration and Incarnation (Baker 2005/2015), and The Sin of Certainty (HarperOne, 2016).

Prophecies Aren’t Predictions of the Future (You Can Look It Up)

Prophecies can be predictions about the future like when the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint's founder Joseph Smith made a prophecy describing the American Civil War nearly 30 years before this historic war took place; this prophecy was totally fulfilled: :there will be a war between the northern states and the southern states beginning in South Carolina; the southern states will call upon Great Britain for assistance. Hence, this proves Joseph Smith was a true prophet.

Doctrine and Covenants 87
 
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QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
To me Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 isn't vague because the proclaiming about the good news of God's Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is now being proclaimed on a vast international scale as never before in history.
Even modern technology has made rapid Bible translation possible so that people living in remote areas of Earth can now have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages, thus fulfilling what Jesus said.
So, this is not vague, but means we have reached the ' final phase ' of that global preaching work.

I find many people think things are getting out of hand.
To me this ties is with the description of how self-centered people have a distorted form of love as described at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 which is in sharp contrast to the definition of Christ-like love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6.

Whether labeled as prediction or prophecy 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 lets us know we are nearing the coming ' final signal ', so to speak, when the ' powers that be ' will be saying, " Peace and Security.." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.

To me Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 isn't vague because the proclaiming about the good news of God's Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is now being proclaimed on a vast international scale as never before in history.
Even modern technology has made rapid Bible translation possible so that people living in remote areas of Earth can now have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages, thus fulfilling what Jesus said.
So, this is not vague, but means we have reached the ' final phase ' of that global preaching work.


Sounds like nothing more than an accurate prediction to me.

I find many people think things are getting out of hand.

What exactly does that mean? Getting 'out of hand' compared to what, exactly?

Whether labeled as prediction or prophecy 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 lets us know we are nearing the coming ' final signal ', so to speak, when the ' powers that be ' will be saying, " Peace and Security.." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill

Definitely nothing more than a prediction... and not necessary all that accurate either.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I just study the Bible seriously. Nicene creed covers it. The Bible is very flawed.. full of contradictions, anachronisms and errors of geography. The writers were focused on telling a compelling morality tale and NOT on history. The Book of Daniel had many authors and none of them are "Daniel". Daniel is a literary device.

The book of Daniel is replete with historical inaccuracies regarding the Babylonian and Persian periods, indicating it was written quite some time after those eras.

Between this point, and the independent nature of the court tales, the person of 'Daniel' appears to be a literary fabrication, not a historical figure (and hence, not the author of the book).

Davies suggests this 'Daniel' character may not have been a well-known figure in Jewish culture before the book was completed,4 and Collins is one scholar to suggest the very name 'Daniel' was chosen for the anonymous Jewish sage of the folklore out of inspiration from the ancient sage 'Danel', mentioned by Ezekiel and Ugaritic texts.5

The apocalyptic visions offer more details to us as to who the author(s) might have been.

Chapters 7-12 are almost exclusively focused on Antiochus Epiphanes and the ensuing Maccabean Revolt.

(See my answers to two other questions here and here for a fuller exposition on these details.)

The concern here is the resolution of the Revolt, the cleansing of the temple in Jerusalem, and the reinstitution of the sacrifices, offerings, and Torah observance.

Critical scholars have long noticed that the apocalyptic section's grasp on history during the Maccabean Revolt appears to suddenly disappear a year or two before its conclusion.

Some scholars also go a little further than simply identifying the time period of the author, by also trying to deduce his specific theological or ethical identity. Hill notes:6

Who wrote the Book of Daniel
As I said, you seek out scholars who come to a specific conclusion. Is this because you look for support of your own conclusion ?

Have you read any of the scholars who refute this position ?

What someone writes is an opinion, not a fact. You use the term ¨critical scholars¨ which is a dead giveaway.

There are non critical scholars as well. You oght to spend some time reading them.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
You mean stories of prophecies. Some "prophecies" were written after the event.

Vaticinium ex eventu - Wikipedia



Big barbecue at Tony's house next week. Or it could be an example of history written as prophecy.



Yet we will see multiple interpretations of what some claim are the most important prophecies in the Bible. If you rely on the Bible based upon prophecy and honestly analyze them you will not find one significant fulfilled prophecy, but you will find prophecies that failed almost immediately.
I quote from your link:


Some scholars regard statements attributed to Jesusin the Gospels that foretell the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple as examples of vaticinia ex eventu; these scholars believe that the Gospels were all written after the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70, in which the temple was destroyed.[4]

You see? Those are only 'some' scholars have no proof. They just regard and 'believe' that Gospels were written after! It is like a Christian who believes Jesus was physically resurrected, but there is no proof. It is just a belief!
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
To me Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 isn't vague because the proclaiming about the good news of God's Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is now being proclaimed on a vast international scale as never before in history.
Even modern technology has made rapid Bible translation possible so that people living in remote areas of Earth can now have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages, thus fulfilling what Jesus said.
So, this is not vague, but means we have reached the ' final phase ' of that global preaching work.

Sounds like nothing more than an accurate prediction to me.
I find many people think things are getting out of hand.
What exactly does that mean? Getting 'out of hand' compared to what, exactly?
Whether labeled as prediction or prophecy 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 lets us know we are nearing the coming ' final signal ', so to speak, when the ' powers that be ' will be saying, " Peace and Security.." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill
Definitely nothing more than a prediction... and not necessary all that accurate either.

I find when people see or hear the news they often comment about things getting out of hand.
That to me can include safety: Feeling free to walk streets at night, free to keep cars and house unlocked, etc.
I do wonder why you think what we can learn from the Bible is Not accurate.
Accurately, Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 is being fufilled globally just as it is written so it is.
Even a bad economy can make the $ wealth $ the churches have amassed look attractive and easy for the political taking as a $$$$$ reason for turning on such a false religious practice.
Plus, the trouble that false religion creates causes such religion to be on the United Nation's radar, so to speak.
Thus, with backing the U.N. can be strengthened to become God's modern-day arm of the law against such trouble-causing religions, especially staring with 'Christendom' because she claims to follow the Bible.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
"When I was a child at a Baptist Sunday School (all those years ago!) we were told that the purpose of a prophet was to warn against the consequences of evil behaviour; to guide and advise rulers; and to lead people back to God. "

Was that BEFORE the 1970s?

I just checked your age.. you'd be talking about Baptist Sunday school in the 1950s???

That would have been before all this crackpot rapture ready hit mainstream churches.

These days the victims of that false teaching sees every bible verse as either pointing to the last days or Jesus.
The rapture, in one form or another, pre millenial, inter millenial, or post millenial has been around a long time. The names were different, but the concept was the same.

Peter wrote about it, as did Paul.

The Millerite movement, across denominational lines was all about it in the late 1830ś to mid 1840ś
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I quote from your link:
Some scholars regard statements attributed to Jesusin the Gospels that foretell the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple as examples of vaticinia ex eventu; these scholars believe that the Gospels were all written after the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70, in which the temple was destroyed.[4]
You see? Those are only 'some' scholars have no proof. They just regard and 'believe' that Gospels were written after! It is like a Christian who believes Jesus was physically resurrected, but there is no proof. It is just a belief!

If Luke 19:43-44 was written after the year 70 then the Christians living in unfaithful Jerusalem would Not have left Jerusalem in the year 66 as they did.
Only Christendom ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only ) teaches a physical resurrection for Jesus.
There would have been No need for Jesus to use different materialized bodies after his resurrection if he had a physical body. Besides, as 1 Corinthians 15:50 informs us that ' flesh' ( physical ) can Not inherit the kingdom.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The rapture, in one form or another, pre millenial, inter millenial, or post millenial has been around a long time. The names were different, but the concept was the same.
Peter wrote about it, as did Paul.
The Millerite movement, across denominational lines was all about it in the late 1830ś to mid 1840ś

I don't see where either Peter or Paul wrote about rapture, but rather about resurrection.
Paul was clear at 1 Corinthians 15:50 that ' flesh ' ( physical ) can Not inherit the kingdom.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I quote from your link:


Some scholars regard statements attributed to Jesusin the Gospels that foretell the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple as examples of vaticinia ex eventu; these scholars believe that the Gospels were all written after the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70, in which the temple was destroyed.[4]

You see? Those are only 'some' scholars have no proof. They just regard and 'believe' that Gospels were written after! It is like a Christian who believes Jesus was physically resurrected, but there is no proof. It is just a belief!
If the prophecy of the destruction of the temple was written after the fact, don´t you think some writer of the NT would have written about it as proof of the prophecy being fulfilled ?

Or, was this exclusion part of a double bluff conspiracy ?
 
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