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Prophecies Aren’t Predictions of the Future

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
That's what I thought. NONE of the mainline churches taught rapture until the late 1970s. No one taught that all Jews had to return to Palestine to bring on the second coming either.

Not in my neck of the woods, for sure.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
That's what I thought. NONE of the mainline churches taught rapture until the late 1970s. No one taught that all Jews had to return to Palestine to bring on the second coming either.

Having said that, I recall - unless it's a false memory - some folk saying that the State of Israel was itself the Messiah, and that in restoring Palestine to the Jews it had brought about - or was bringing about - the fulfilment of biblical promises. There was a Pentecostal meeting place near my home. I might have heard such talk from these folk. Might be getting my wires crossed, though!
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Having said that, I recall - unless it's a false memory - some folk saying that the State of Israel was itself the Messiah, and that in restoring Palestine to the Jews it had brought about - or was bringing about - the fulfilment of biblical promises. There was a Pentecostal meeting place near my home. I might have heard such talk from these folk. Might be getting my wires crossed, though!

That sounds about right.....
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I just study the Bible seriously. Nicene creed covers it. The Bible is very flawed.. full of contradictions, anachronisms and errors of geography. The writers were focused on telling a compelling morality tale and NOT on history. The Book of Daniel had many authors and none of them are "Daniel". Daniel is a literary device.

The book of Daniel is replete with historical inaccuracies regarding the Babylonian and Persian periods, indicating it was written quite some time after those eras.

Between this point, and the independent nature of the court tales, the person of 'Daniel' appears to be a literary fabrication, not a historical figure (and hence, not the author of the book).

Davies suggests this 'Daniel' character may not have been a well-known figure in Jewish culture before the book was completed,4 and Collins is one scholar to suggest the very name 'Daniel' was chosen for the anonymous Jewish sage of the folklore out of inspiration from the ancient sage 'Danel', mentioned by Ezekiel and Ugaritic texts.5

The apocalyptic visions offer more details to us as to who the author(s) might have been.

Chapters 7-12 are almost exclusively focused on Antiochus Epiphanes and the ensuing Maccabean Revolt.

(See my answers to two other questions here and here for a fuller exposition on these details.)

The concern here is the resolution of the Revolt, the cleansing of the temple in Jerusalem, and the reinstitution of the sacrifices, offerings, and Torah observance.

Critical scholars have long noticed that the apocalyptic section's grasp on history during the Maccabean Revolt appears to suddenly disappear a year or two before its conclusion.

Some scholars also go a little further than simply identifying the time period of the author, by also trying to deduce his specific theological or ethical identity. Hill notes:6

Who wrote the Book of Daniel
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
Pentecostals would have been in the fringe group that adopted the Scofield heresy.

I admit, with a wee bit of shame, that we thought them a joke....they were 'Happy Clappy Christians'. My cousin and I (we were about 11) once interrupted a tent meeting held by Pentecostals.....not our local group. We stood near the entrance, making rude...and loud...noises. A man came out, and...instead of whacking us across the ears....invited us to join them. I recall blurting out that we were Catholics (a lie). His gentle reply brings a blush to this day: 'I'm sure Father Driscoll would be sad to see two of his flock behaving so badly!' We ran! Years later, I became one of Father Driscoll's flock! I never let on about the tent :oops:
 

Cleary

God is sovereign and in control <><
The Bible displays the character of man and certain events that lead us to the final days ...
all seem to be on the table at this time ... keepn watch and anticipating ultimate glory <><
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The Bible displays the character of man and certain events that lead us to the final days ...
all seem to be on the table at this time ... keepn watch and anticipating ultimate glory <><

No.. The tribulation was over in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple.. That world ended.. and a new age began.

Final days is grossly misunderstood and every charlatan has taken advantage of that misunderstanding. Revelation was written to encourage the people of the first century... and let them know "Jesus won".

Apocryphal literature was VERY popular from about 200 BC thru 100 AD.


That's why there were so many different apocalypse writings around.

Revelation of John, the original Jewish version ...
historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html
B) Synopsis: The Jewish original version of Revelation (or Apocalypse) of John, much more coherent than the final one, was written very likely (in Greek) late 70 or 71 C.E. in Syrian Antioch by a temple of Jerusalem ex-priest named John.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Which also makes them failed prophecies.
.
Are you familiar with fulfilment of prophecies symbolically?
The best example in Bible IMO are given. For example, the man who had a dream of seven fat cows eaten by seven thin cows. When it was fulfilled, it happened as seven years of prosperity followed by seven years of poverty.
So, the symbols have very specific meanings! Not just any meaning. In this example seven fat cows are symbols of seven years of prosperity.

.
Any event can be reinterpreted as fulfilling a prophecy.
.
I wouldn't say any event can be reinterpreted as fulfilling a prophecy.
Tell me how else the seven cows can be reinterpreted to be considered fulfilled other than 7 years..

.
If a prophecy will be fulfilled no matter what it is of no value.
I suppose you mean, if a prophecy can always be reinterpreted in a way to match with anything, it proves nothing. Agree. But the prophecies of Bible cannot be match with just anything, other than its true fulfilment. What if there is a great number of prophecies which all of them consistently match with the set of events related to the subject of prophecy?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Are you familiar with fulfilment of prophecies symbolically?

The best example in Bible IMO are given. For example, the man who had a dream of seven fat cows eaten by seven thin cows. When it was fulfilled, it happened as seven years of prosperity followed by seven years of poverty.

So, the symbols have very specific meanings! Not just any meaning. In this example seven fat cows are symbols of seven years of prosperity.

.
I don't see how any invent can be reinterpreted as fulfilling a prophecy.
Tell me how else the seven cows can be reinterpreted to be considered fulfilled other than 7 years..

.
I suppose you mean, if a prophecy can always be reinterpreted in a way to match with anything, it proves nothing. What if there is a great number of prophecies which all of them consistently match with the set of events related to the subject of prophecy?

Do you think about the dream that story is real?

Most prophecy is written Vaticinium ex eventu… its hindsite bias. That's why scripture was constantly redacted and amended.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Do you think about the dream that story is real?
Yes. Because I believe Scriptures are divinely inspired.

Most prophecy is written Vaticinium ex eventu… its hindsite bias. That's why scripture was constantly redacted and amended.
This is just merely an opinion. Since they cannot believe Scriptures are divinely inspired, and cannot believe prophecies are actually fulfilled, they say, the prophecy then must have been written after the event!
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Yes. Because I believe Scriptures are divinely inspired.

This is just merely an opinion. Since they cannot believe Scriptures are divinely inspired, and cannot believe prophecies are actually fulfilled, they say, the prophecy then must have been written after the event!

Always check to see when the various prophets lived... Most prophecy was written after the fact.

We don't have a very good understanding of what a prophet is or does. We get a notion that they are future tellers in childhood Sunday school and never look any further.

Exodus is a morality tale about redemption and deliverance.. Its not history.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Are you familiar with fulfilment of prophecies symbolically?
The best example in Bible IMO are given. For example, the man who had a dream of seven fat cows eaten by seven thin cows. When it was fulfilled, it happened as seven years of prosperity followed by seven years of poverty.
So, the symbols have very specific meanings! Not just any meaning. In this example seven fat cows are symbols of seven years of prosperity.

You mean stories of prophecies. Some "prophecies" were written after the event.

Vaticinium ex eventu - Wikipedia

.
I wouldn't say any event can be reinterpreted as fulfilling a prophecy.
Tell me how else the seven cows can be reinterpreted to be considered fulfilled other than 7 years..

Big barbecue at Tony's house next week. Or it could be an example of history written as prophecy.

.
I suppose you mean, if a prophecy can always be reinterpreted in a way to match with anything, it proves nothing. Agree. But the prophecies of Bible cannot be match with just anything, other than its true fulfilment. What if there is a great number of prophecies which all of them consistently match with the set of events related to the subject of prophecy?

Yet we will see multiple interpretations of what some claim are the most important prophecies in the Bible. If you rely on the Bible based upon prophecy and honestly analyze them you will not find one significant fulfilled prophecy, but you will find prophecies that failed almost immediately.
 

Cleary

God is sovereign and in control <><
No.. The tribulation was over in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple.. That world ended.. and a new age began

Yeah, well, we'll have to agree to dis-agree on that one ...
Satan and his minions don't look to bound to me ...
and try throwing a lamb in w/ a lion, let me know what happens .... later <3

..... Amos ( 750 BC ) says the following in this regards:

"I ( God ) will bring my exiled people of Israel back from distant lands ..
and they will rebuild their ruined cities and live in them again ..
They will plant vineyards and gardens .. they will eat their crops and drink their wine ..
I will firmly plant them there in their own land ..
They will never again be uprooted from the land I have given them" ..
says the Lord your God . . . . Amos 9:14-15
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Yeah, well, we'll have to agree to dis-agree on that one ...
Satan and his minions don't look to bound to me ...
and try throwing a lamb in w/ a lion, let me know what happens .... later <3

Satan has been bound since the crucifixion.
 

Cleary

God is sovereign and in control <><
Zechariah ( 520-470 BC ) says the following in this regards:

"I ( God ) am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples REELING.

Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her,
I (God) will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves"
. . . Zechariah 12
< I think this is happening as we speak
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Zechariah ( 520-470 BC ) says the following in this regards:

"I ( God ) am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples REELING.

Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her,
I (God) will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves"
. . . Zechariah 12
< I think this is happening as we speak

Not the whole earth.. just around their land.

The Roman legions under the command of Titus in 70 AD were also made up of Arabs, Syrians and Egyptians who were near Israel and in the Roman Empire. When they fought for Rome they got Roman citizenship.

MapofRomanEmpireFirstCentury.jpg
 
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