Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

[dybmh]

So what do you thing Isa 53 was about?

1. Israel or
   
2. Jesus Christ

It's a mystery. I don't know. I'm researching it offline...

 

[sooda]

The issue is sin and Isaiah starts the same way the song of Moses which concerns Israel's future rebellion starts 'listen oh heavens and hear oh earth'

English Standard Version
“Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.

In the start it is definitely sin
In the end it is to be right with God and living with God

I see it in a sense as a fulfillment of the great mountain imagery in the bible
The mountain (seen as Sinai) is oppressive with thunder and only Moses can go up for 40 days while people cannot go with him to this holy place
Then the mount (seen as Jerusalem) is accessible and people dwell there and worship there with God
Ultimately picturing the sin barrie death with

And it happens because of Jesus

Isaiah makes it pretty clear that Israel is the servant of God. There is no mention of Jesus. Christians hijacked the Servant Song, just like they only use half of Hosea 11:1.

The literal meaning of the servant in Isaiah is Israel. The servant has been applied to many different people -- including Moses, Abraham and others.

Ezekiel 37:24-28 24"'My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.'"

Isaiah was written about 400 years before Christ so we can exclude verses in which servant is used in the present and past tense.

Terms like my chosen, my servant, I have chosen, you are my servant and formed from the womb, don't apply grammatically to the distant future.

 

[sooda]

It's a mystery. I don't know. I'm researching it offline...

Keep this in mind...

The prophet Isaiah lived in the eighth and early seventh centuries BC. He was from Jerusalem and began his ministry in 740 BC, the year of King Uzziah’s death.

Uzziah was disfigured with leprosy and cut off.

 

[sooda]

Isaiah 41:8-9


But you,
Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”

Isaiah 44:1

But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!

Isaiah 44:21

Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:4

For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.

Isaiah 48:20

Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”

Isaiah 49:3

And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”​

 

[dybmh]

Chap 53 starts with a "vav (and)". I think this means it is connected to previous verses. Maybe Tumah was giving us a hint about this in his post on this thread?

That's why I'm reviewing the whole book offline. I'm trying to figure out what chapter 53 is connected to.

 

[sooda]

Chap 53 starts with a "vav (and)". I think this means it is connected to previous verses. Maybe Tumah was giving us a hint about this in his post on this thread?

That's why I'm reviewing the whole book offline. I'm trying to figure out what chapter 53 is connected to.

53 is connected to the whole.....

 

[dybmh]

correction... I was thinking of the 2nd verse of 53... the vav I'm thinking of is the 2nd verse.... sorry....

 

[dybmh]

@soodah, I hear you. That has been your position starting at the OP. But I don't think one has to do that. Certainly that helps.

OK.... so @MJFlores , I vote no, I am sorry. I don't think it's your Jesus Christ that Isaiah is speaking about in 53.

I don't think it can be Jesus because of context and because the chapter is in past tense all the way till verse 11.

starting in verse 1: the out stretched arm; that's part of the exodus story. reading the whole chapter in that context, it make much more sense that Isaiah is speaking about the nation of Israel. The nation of Israel was born out of the exodus from Egypt. That's where the chapter begins. it begins by speaking about the exodus. Then the next verse, "And he rose" ( Thank you Tumah ) is speaking directly about the verse before it. Verse 2 is connected directly to verse 1. Verse 2 is speaking about the nation of Israel. Continuing to read the chapter, all 12 verses, Israel is a better fit, in my opinion. But please feel free to correct me.

Also, look at how the verses start past tense and then shift to future tense in verse 11. The only prophecy for the future is in verses 11 and 12: "He will see, and he will be righteous in knowing Him... . Verse 12, maybe, maybe it's about Jesus? But only if it's taken out and read on its own. Also, I think the tense shifted again. Verse 12, it's past tense, i think.

I don't think it makes sense for the tense to shift like this if the whole chapter is referring to Jesus. If it was intended 100% to be about Jesus, wouldn't the tense all be future?

 

[sooda]

@soodah, I hear you. That has been your position starting at the OP. But I don't think one has to do that. Certainly that helps.

OK.... so @MJFlores , I vote no, I am sorry. I don't think it's your Jesus Christ that Isaiah is speaking about in 53.

I don't think it can be Jesus because of context and because the chapter is in past tense all the way till verse 11.

starting in verse 1: the out stretched arm; that's part of the exodus story. reading the whole chapter in that context, it make much more sense that Isaiah is speaking about the nation of Israel.

The nation of Israel was born out of the exodus from Egypt. That's where the chapter begins. it begins by speaking about the exodus. Then the next verse, "And he rose"

( Thank you Tumah ) is speaking directly about the verse before it. Verse 2 is connected directly to verse 1. Verse 2 is speaking about the nation of Israel. Continuing to read the chapter, all 12 verses, Israel is a better fit, in my opinion. But please feel free to correct me.

Also, look at how the verses start past tense and then shift to future tense in verse 11. The only prophecy for the future is in verses 11 and 12: "He will see, and he will be righteous from knowing Him... . Verse 12, maybe, maybe it's about Jesus? But only if it's taken out and read on it's own.

The other verses are past tense. I don't think it makes sense for the tense to shift like this if the whole chapter is referring to Jesus. If it was intended 100% to be about Jesus, wouldn't the tense all be future?

I don't think it can be Jesus because of context and because the chapter is in past tense all the way till verse 11.

WELL DONE...……….

 

[sooda]

It's Jesus Christ.
See the pronoun - he on every verse of Isa 53?

Isaiah 53 New International Version (NIV)
Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

It's Lord Jesus Christ alright.

Look again. Its all in the past tense. The truth matters.

 

[dybmh]

Regarding verse 12: Who bore the guilt and was counted among the transgressors? Moses. Moses wasn't allowed to enter the land. He remained with the sinners who believed the false report from the spies.

 

[sooda]

Regarding verse 12: Who bore the guilt and was counted among the transgressors? Moses. Moses wasn't allowed to enter the land. He remained with the sinners who doubted the reports from the spies.

And what was the horrible crime of Moses that he should be denied crossing into Canaan????

 

[dybmh]

And what was the horrible crime of Moses that he should be denied crossing into Canaan????

Didn't give credit to G-d for the water coming from the Rock.

 

[sooda]

Didn't give credit to G-d for the water coming from the Rock.

LOL.. I'd forgotten. It would have had to be a river of water since they claimed it was 2 million people and their livestock.. That would have meant at least 10 million goats, sheep and donkeys.

 

[dybmh]

LOL.. I'd forgotten. It would have had to be a river of water since they claimed it was 2 million people and their livestock.. That would have meant at least 10 million goats, sheep and donkeys.

Or they were a nation of very-very-tiny people

 

[dybmh]

I mean, at this point in the story, anything's possible.

 

[rosends]

2 things --
1. Moses was punished for hitting the rock (the second time)
2. the chapter divisions in the Jewish text are later (non-Jewish) interpolations.

 

[MJFlores]

@soodah, I hear you. That has been your position starting at the OP. But I don't think one has to do that. Certainly that helps.

OK.... so @MJFlores , I vote no, I am sorry. I don't think it's your Jesus Christ that Isaiah is speaking about in 53.

I don't think it can be Jesus because of context and because the chapter is in past tense all the way till verse 11.

starting in verse 1: the out stretched arm; that's part of the exodus story. reading the whole chapter in that context, it make much more sense that Isaiah is speaking about the nation of Israel. The nation of Israel was born out of the exodus from Egypt. That's where the chapter begins. it begins by speaking about the exodus. Then the next verse, "And he rose" ( Thank you Tumah ) is speaking directly about the verse before it. Verse 2 is connected directly to verse 1. Verse 2 is speaking about the nation of Israel. Continuing to read the chapter, all 12 verses, Israel is a better fit, in my opinion. But please feel free to correct me.

Also, look at how the verses start past tense and then shift to future tense in verse 11. The only prophecy for the future is in verses 11 and 12: "He will see, and he will be righteous in knowing Him... . Verse 12, maybe, maybe it's about Jesus? But only if it's taken out and read on its own. Also, I think the tense shifted again. Verse 12, it's past tense, i think.

I don't think it makes sense for the tense to shift like this if the whole chapter is referring to Jesus. If it was intended 100% to be about Jesus, wouldn't the tense all be future?

Oki doki....oh by the way:

So Israel is ugly?
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

And Israel is not the promise land but a land of suffering and pain?
He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.

Israel is not a great nation at all but a nation of shame?
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

When did Israel claim the suffering of mankind?
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.

Since when are the sins of mankind redeemed by Israel?
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

If it doesn't looks like a duck,
doesn't swims like a duck,
and doesn't quacks like a duck,
then it probably is a _________

 

[MJFlores]

Look again. Its all in the past tense. The truth matters.

So much tension
It is so intense
Why so tense?

 

[dybmh]

Oki doki....oh by the way:

So Israel is ugly?
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

And Israel is not the promise land but a land of suffering and pain?
He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.

Israel is not a great nation at all but a nation of shame?
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

When did Israel claim the suffering of mankind?
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.

Since when are the sins of mankind redeemed by Israel?
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

If it doesn't looks like a duck,
doesn't swims like a duck,
and doesn't quacks like a duck,
then it probably is a _________

Yeah, I don't know, my friend. I think what you're observing is The Book of Isaiah ( among others ) is very critical of the nation.