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Prophecies Aren’t Predictions of the Future

sooda

Veteran Member
To me Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 isn't vague because the proclaiming about the good news of God's Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is now being proclaimed on a vast international scale as never before in history.
Even modern technology has made rapid Bible translation possible so that people living in remote areas of Earth can now have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages, thus fulfilling what Jesus said.
So, this is not vague, but means we have reached the ' final phase ' of that global preaching work.

I find many people think things are getting out of hand.
To me this ties is with the description of how self-centered people have a distorted form of love as described at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 which is in sharp contrast to the definition of Christ-like love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6.

Whether labeled as prediction or prophecy 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 lets us know we are nearing the coming ' final signal ', so to speak, when the ' powers that be ' will be saying, " Peace and Security.." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Matthew 24 is talking about 70 AD.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@sooda , it sounds like the school of the prophets is a Yeshiva?

If so, it goes back much earlier than Samuel...

There's references that Jacob from Genesis was in a Yeshiva.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Yes. Consider, 'destruction', might be a spiritual destruction, as well as war... Jesus said, His return is like the time of Noah. When Noah came, the flood happened, and continued, so is with return of Christ.

In the year 70 unfaithful Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman armies. That was Not a spiritual destruction.
So, besides un-faithful Jerusalem, in the past God used the political / military to be His arm of the law against enemies. This gives us a pattern that God will once again use the political / military against His enemies.
The political / military will do God's will and go up against those who prove false to God and His Christ.
As in Noah's day, and Sodom and Gomorrah, the end came hard and swift, so the coming end to wickedness on Earth will also be hard and swift - Psalms 92:7; Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
Then, as Psalms 46:9 says God will stop wars earth wide.
Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will be the one to usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member

Yes, agree. However, Matthew 24 has both a ' minor ' and a 'MAJOR' fulfillment.
The 'minor ' fulfillment came in the year 70 when God used the Roman armies against unfaithful Jerusalem.
The Christians who listened to Jesus left Jerusalem 4 years earlier in the year 66 - Luke 19:43-44.
The 'MAJOR' fulfillment is at the coming time of Revelation 7:14,9.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Yes, agree. However, Matthew 24 has both a ' minor ' and a 'MAJOR' fulfillment.
The 'minor ' fulfillment came in the year 70 when God used the Roman armies against unfaithful Jerusalem.
The Christians who listened to Jesus left Jerusalem 4 years earlier in the year 66 - Luke 19:43-44.
The 'MAJOR' fulfillment is at the coming time of Revelation 7:14,9.

The Roman legions who fought under the command of Titus in 70 AD were Romans, Arabs, Syrians and Egyptians.. That also fits the prophesy.

Why do you think there are TWO tribulations?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Prophets aren’t Fortunetellers or Meteorologists (by C. A. Strine)

How does one explain with any intellectual honesty a Second Coming that Jesus said would come soon but didn’t? As Christopher mentioned in the first post, we believe it comes down to how one understands “predictive prophecy.”

We think that the statements about Jesus’ return in the Gospels are prophecies, which aren’t meant to be predictions of future events. Now that really sounds weird.

Except, it isn’t.

When most people read something called prophecy, especially predictive prophecy, they assume that the statements about the future intend to describe accurately what the prophet understands, through divine inspiration, will actually happen in the future.

We tend to think of prophets like divine meteorologists providing a long-term forecast. Predictions of doom and gloom or images of abundant blessing are taken to be statements about what the future will be like. That’s what prophets do: they tell us now about what things will be like then, some time in the future.

Only that’s not what the Old Testament tells us.

The Book of Jeremiah comes closest to giving a model for how predictive prophecy works, and it is rather different than the “predict the future” model.

Indeed, Jeremiah makes it very clear that some predictive prophecy is not meant to come pass at all.

Let’s look at Jeremiah 18:5-10. This passage explains that God reserves the possibility to change course even after the prophet who speaks on God’s behalf predicts blessing or cursing.

Then the word of the LORD came to me: Can I not do with you, O house of Israel, just as this potter has done? says the LORD. Just like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.

In other words, God may not send the predicted punishment if the people repent, or conversely withhold a predicted blessing if the people do evil in God’s sight.

Statements about the future are descriptions of how bad it might be, or how abundant God’s blessing could be. It all depends on what people do.

Prophecies are conditional statements. Predictive prophecies explain what is on offer, not what has already been decided.

This dynamic is highlighted later in Jeremiah (ch. 26, to be exact). After having prophesied the destruction of the Temple—obviously not a popular position in Jerusalem—the priests, the prophets, and all the people condemn Jeremiah to death (vv. 7-9) because of his prediction of doom.

But then the elders of the land recall that Micah had predicted a similar fate for Jerusalem. They also recall that, on that occasion, Hezekiah (the king reigning at that time) didn’t try to eliminate Micah because he was irked by his dire prophecy; rather, the threat of destruction provoked Hezekiah to plead with God to spare Jerusalem.

And God did. Crisis averted.

Micah’s prophecy didn’t come to pass, but drove Hezekiah to change his ways. And that made him a good prophet. A very good one indeed.

Prophecy does not simply seek to predict the future, but to change the present. The potential of future disaster is meant to change current behavior, to motivate people to repent, to turn back to God, and to live in a way that will persuade God to hold back judgment.

Or, when blessing is promised, prophecy aims to encourage people to persevere in following God’s commands, to do so with all the more conviction, and to remind them that backsliding into rebellion might convince God not to bestow the good things offered to them at all.

Prophets want to activate certain behaviors in their audiences, not prognosticate future events. They are like parents warning children against foolish behavior and encouraging good behavior, not weather forecasters attempting to tell you whether or not you’ll need an umbrella at noontime tomorrow.

This is the case around the ancient world and the Old Testament (as we discuss in the book
ir
).

Think, for instance, of the book of Jonah. This prophet is no doubt a comic figure, in a comical book, but surely one with a serious point.

Strine-speaking-header-image-180x180.jpg

C. A. (Casey) Strine
Why does Jonah resist going to Nineveh? Precisely because he knew that alerting the people of this foreign nation to the potential of God’s punishment would cause them to change their ways (Jon 4:1-4). Jonah wanted God to punish Nineveh; he knew his “prediction” of punishment could change their behavior and avoid that outcome; so he ran away.

In the book we show how this same view of prophecy lies beneath passages in Isaiah, 2 Samuel, early Jewish texts, and, as Christopher will explain in the next post, the New Testament too.

In the book we show how this same view of prophecy lies beneath passages in Isaiah, 2 Samuel, early Jewish texts, and, as Christopher will explain in the next post, the New Testament too.

Prophets are not fortunetellers or weather forecasters. They are not claiming to predict an inevitable, unchanging future, but to change the way that people live in the present.

When we read predictive prophecy—in the Old Testament, the Gospels, or elsewhere—we need to ask what it wants to activate us to do, not what it might prognosticate about the future.

As we’ll see in our next post, this is just what New Testament shows us.

[Part 3 coming tomorrow . . . ]

See some of Pete’s popular books: The Bible Tells Me So (HarperOne, 2014), Inspiration and Incarnation (Baker 2005/2015), and The Sin of Certainty (HarperOne, 2016).

Prophecies Aren’t Predictions of the Future (You Can Look It Up)
All true regarding conditional prophecies. However, many prophecies were never conditional. Daniel´s interpretation of the Kings dream was not conditional, as an example.

It clearly laid out the kingdoms to come, and they did, just as it was said.

There was nothing anyone could do to change this course of history.

There are many of the same, they will happen or already have, and they only thing our response can do is make us informed and active witnesses, or make us ignorant, like ping pong balls drifting on the surface of the ocean.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
All true regarding conditional prophecies. However, many prophecies were never conditional. Daniel´s interpretation of the Kings dream was not conditional, as an example.

It clearly laid out the kingdoms to come, and they did, just as it was said.

There was nothing anyone could do to change this course of history.

There are many of the same, they will happen or already have, and they only thing our response can do is make us informed and active witnesses, or make us ignorant, like ping pong balls drifting on the surface of the ocean.

There was NO Daniel. Daniel was NOT the author.. The authors are unknown.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The book of Daniel is replete with historical inaccuracies regarding the Babylonian and Persian periods, indicating it was written quite some time after those eras.

Between this point, and the independent nature of the court tales, the person of 'Daniel' appears to be a literary fabrication, not a historical figure (and hence, not the author of the book).

Davies suggests this 'Daniel' character may not have been a well-known figure in Jewish culture before the book was completed,4 and Collins is one scholar to suggest the very name 'Daniel' was chosen for the anonymous Jewish sage of the folklore out of inspiration from the ancient sage 'Danel', mentioned by Ezekiel and Ugaritic texts.5

The apocalyptic visions offer more details to us as to who the author(s) might have been.

Chapters 7-12 are almost exclusively focused on Antiochus Epiphanes and the ensuing Maccabean Revolt.

(See my answers to two other questions here and here for a fuller exposition on these details.)

The concern here is the resolution of the Revolt, the cleansing of the temple in Jerusalem, and the reinstitution of the sacrifices, offerings, and Torah observance.

Critical scholars have long noticed that the apocalyptic section's grasp on history during the Maccabean Revolt appears to suddenly disappear a year or two before its conclusion.

Some scholars also go a little further than simply identifying the time period of the author, by also trying to deduce his specific theological or ethical identity. Hill notes:6

Who wrote the Book of Daniel
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Indeed, Jeremiah makes it very clear that some predictive prophecy is not meant to come pass at all.

Let’s look at Jeremiah 18:5-10. This passage explains that God reserves the possibility to change course even after the prophet who speaks on God’s behalf predicts blessing or cursing.

Then the word of the LORD came to me: Can I not do with you, O house of Israel, just as this potter has done? says the LORD. Just like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.

In other words, God may not send the predicted punishment if the people repent, or conversely withhold a predicted blessing if the people do evil in God’s sight.

Statements about the future are descriptions of how bad it might be, or how abundant God’s blessing could be. It all depends on what people do.
True, some predictive prophesy is not meant to come to pass; but we know that what Jesus predicted will occur because God is not going to let this go on forever. The world is an evil place and getting worse. God will put a stop to it. The world unlike Nineveh has not repented at all. But it has become worse and worse. So God will certainly bring this to a close soon.

It's not a matter of if it will occur; but how and when. Because if people do repent God can push it back or if they do not repent then God can make it happen sooner.
Prophets aren’t Fortunetellers or Meteorologists (by C. A. Strine)

How does one explain with any intellectual honesty a Second Coming that Jesus said would come soon but didn’t? As Christopher mentioned in the first post, we believe it comes down to how one understands “predictive prophecy.”
What is soon to you is not soon to God. I think that Peter made that really obvious. (2 Peter 3:8) You can talk all you want about intellectual honesty; but we prefer honesty to God. We don't care what people think about us. The scriptures explain themselves. The key to understanding the scriptures is in the scriptures and can only be revealed by the holy Spirit. Jesus never told anyone anything that they could understand by themselves. They must have the holy Spirit to teach them or they won't get it.

But, many people limit themselves from this; because they think they are intelligent and so they don't need the holy Spirit to understand.

Jesus disguised drew near to the two disciples on the road and explained to them all the scriptures about Himself in the Tanakh. They did not understand before He told them because they were "fools and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets had said". We all are the same way and cannot understand unless God shows us the truth.

God's will is going to be accomplished and Jesus will return as He claimed He would.

For your sakes we like to explain these things that God has shown us in the scriptures.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@sooda,

Question:

What are your thoughts on Amos, both the book and the Prophet?

I'm most curious on whether or not there are obvious historical inaccuracies.

Also, if I remember the story, Amos was a common working class prophet. So I would not expect Amos to go to one of the special schools we were talking about.

Thoughts?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
There was NO Daniel. Daniel was NOT the author.. The authors are unknown.
Hmmmmm. You allege you are a Christian, and I certainly can´t judge your relationship, or absence of a relationship with God.

Having said that, I must admit that you seem to reject most of what has been part of the faith for 2,000 years.

You call parts of the Bible silly, apparently reject the miracles of Christ, and now attempt to tell me there was no Daniel. You are parroting one anti Judeo/Christian line after another. There are just as credible counter arguments to the positions you have taken, historical, theological , archaeological.

So, I am curious as to what exactly your Christianity is and means.

Do you mind telling me ?
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
I have real trouble not taking this as excuse-making by someone coming to grips with the fact that their prophecies failed.
I think of it in terms of a paradigm similar to the scientific method. The current widely held view of prophet in Christianity fits the predictive model. But this model does not hold up in light of the evidence, so a more refined model that fits and better explains that evidence is needed. I think sooda has done that.

But you are correct in the sense that any model used to interpret scripture does so in the context of the Bible as set of claims accepted to one degree or another by believers. The value is not in convincing a non-believer, but in clarifying and providing a better more refined interpretation for the believer. Without such insight a believer is left with a plethora of failed prophecy to rationalize.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Yes, agree. However, Matthew 24 has both a ' minor ' and a 'MAJOR' fulfillment.
The 'minor ' fulfillment came in the year 70 when God used the Roman armies against unfaithful Jerusalem.
The Christians who listened to Jesus left Jerusalem 4 years earlier in the year 66 - Luke 19:43-44.
The 'MAJOR' fulfillment is at the coming time of Revelation 7:14,9.

WHERE does it say that there is also a major fulfillment? Be careful you are NOT assuming something that isn't there.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Hmmmmm. You allege you are a Christian, and I certainly can´t judge your relationship, or absence of a relationship with God.

Having said that, I must admit that you seem to reject most of what has been part of the faith for 2,000 years.

You call parts of the Bible silly, apparently reject the miracles of Christ, and now attempt to tell me there was no Daniel. You are parroting one anti Judeo/Christian line after another. There are just as credible counter arguments to the positions you have taken, historical, theological , archaeological.

So, I am curious as to what exactly your Christianity is and means.

Do you mind telling me ?

I just study the Bible seriously. Nicene creed covers it. The Bible is very flawed.. full of contradictions, anachronisms and errors of geography. The writers were focused on telling a compelling morality tale and NOT on history. The Book of Daniel had many authors and none of them are "Daniel". Daniel is a literary device.

The book of Daniel is replete with historical inaccuracies regarding the Babylonian and Persian periods, indicating it was written quite some time after those eras.

Between this point, and the independent nature of the court tales, the person of 'Daniel' appears to be a literary fabrication, not a historical figure (and hence, not the author of the book).

Davies suggests this 'Daniel' character may not have been a well-known figure in Jewish culture before the book was completed,4 and Collins is one scholar to suggest the very name 'Daniel' was chosen for the anonymous Jewish sage of the folklore out of inspiration from the ancient sage 'Danel', mentioned by Ezekiel and Ugaritic texts.5

The apocalyptic visions offer more details to us as to who the author(s) might have been.

Chapters 7-12 are almost exclusively focused on Antiochus Epiphanes and the ensuing Maccabean Revolt.

(See my answers to two other questions here and here for a fuller exposition on these details.)

The concern here is the resolution of the Revolt, the cleansing of the temple in Jerusalem, and the reinstitution of the sacrifices, offerings, and Torah observance.

Critical scholars have long noticed that the apocalyptic section's grasp on history during the Maccabean Revolt appears to suddenly disappear a year or two before its conclusion.

Some scholars also go a little further than simply identifying the time period of the author, by also trying to deduce his specific theological or ethical identity. Hill notes:6

Who wrote the Book of Daniel
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
@Niblo
@sayak83

I have come to the conclusion that prophets were many things.... The voice of the community, the conscience of the community.. keen observers and astute analysts.

Exactly.

Two words are used in the Qur'an to describe what English translators call a 'Messenger' or a 'Prophet'. These words are: Nabī ('Prophet') and Rasūl ('Messenger').

In the Islamic context, a Nabī is a man sent by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) to provide guidance, or give warning, to those who are already under the Law; whereas a Rasūl ('Messenger') is charged with delivering the Law in the first place - in the form of Scripture, given to him by his Lord (he is also required to provide guidance and give warning, of course).

All Rasūl are considered to be Nabī; but not all Nabī were Rasūl. Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam); Moses and Yeshua (radi Allahu 'anhum) are each identified in the Qur'an as a Rasūl.

Nowhere does it speak of any Nabī or Rasūl being a fortune teller.

When I was a child at a Baptist Sunday School (all those years ago!) we were told that the purpose of a prophet was to warn against the consequences of evil behaviour; to guide and advise rulers; and to lead people back to God.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Exactly.

Two words are used in the Qur'an to describe what English translators call a 'Messenger' or a 'Prophet'. These words are: Nabī ('Prophet') and Rasūl ('Messenger').

In the Islamic context, a Nabī is a man sent by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) to provide guidance, or give warning, to those who are already under the Law; whereas a Rasūl ('Messenger') is charged with delivering the Law in the first place - in the form of Scripture, given to him by his Lord (he is also required to provide guidance and give warning, of course).

All Rasūl are considered to be Nabī; but not all Nabī were Rasūl. Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam); Moses and Yeshua (radi Allahu 'anhum) are each identified in the Qur'an as a Rasūl.

Nowhere does it speak of any Nabī or Rasūl being a fortune teller.

When I was a child at a Baptist Sunday School (all those years ago!) we were told that the purpose of a prophet was to warn against the consequences of evil behaviour; to guide and advise rulers; and to lead people back to God.

"When I was a child at a Baptist Sunday School (all those years ago!) we were told that the purpose of a prophet was to warn against the consequences of evil behaviour; to guide and advise rulers; and to lead people back to God. "

Was that BEFORE the 1970s?

I just checked your age.. you'd be talking about Baptist Sunday school in the 1950s???

That would have been before all this crackpot rapture ready hit mainstream churches.

These days the victims of that false teaching sees every bible verse as either pointing to the last days or Jesus.
 
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Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
"When I was a child at a Baptist Sunday School (all those years ago!) we were told that the purpose of a prophet was to warn against the consequences of evil behaviour; to guide and advise rulers; and to lead people back to God. "

Was that BEFORE the 1970s?

I just checked your age.. you'd be talking about Baptist Sunday school in the 1950s???

That would have been before all this crackpot rapture ready hit mainstream churches.

These days the victims of that false teaching sees every bible verse as either pointing to the last days or Jesus.

I first attended Sunday School at the age of six. That would be in 1951. The only 'rapture' known to us then was the annual Sunday School outing to the seaside (Barry Island). Good job the coach driver wasn't 'lifted up' on the way. Could have been messy.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I first attended Sunday School at the age of six. That would be in 1951. The only 'rapture' known to us then was the annual Sunday School outing to the seaside (Barry Island). Good job the coach driver wasn't 'lifted up' on the way. Could have been messy.

That's what I thought. NONE of the mainline churches taught rapture until the late 1970s. No one taught that all Jews had to return to Palestine to bring on the second coming either.
 
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