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Prophecies Aren’t Predictions of the Future

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
wizanda said:
David is prophesied as the Messiah across the Tanakh (Ezekiel 34:23-24, Ezekiel 37:24-25, Jeremiah 23:5, Jeremiah 30:8-9, Jeremiah 33:15, Hosea 3:5, Isaiah 55:3, Isaiah 22:22, Isaiah 9:6-7, etc).

Interesting!

I hope the Expanded Bible would clear things up:
When encountering my servant David there are verses with hyperlinks that would clear 'em up

Ezekiel 34:23-24 Expanded Bible (EXB)
Then I will put over them one shepherd, my servant David [Is. 11:1; Jer. 30:9; Hos. 3:5; Mic. 5:2; C the Messiah envisioned as a new David]. He will feed them and tend them and be their shepherd. Then I, the Lord, will be their God, and my servant David will be a ·ruler [prince] among them. I, the Lord, have spoken.

Ezekiel 37:24-25 Expanded Bible (EXB)
“‘My servant David will be their king [34:23], and they will all have one shepherd. They will ·live by [L walk in] my ·laws [rules; judgments] and be careful to keep my ·rules [statutes]. They will live on the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land in which your ·ancestors [fathers] lived. They will all live on the land forever: they, their children, and their grandchildren. David my servant will be their king forever.

Jeremiah 23:5 Expanded Bible (EXB)

“The days are coming,” says the Lord,
“when I will raise up a ·good [righteous] branch ·in David’s family [L for David; Is. 4:2; Zech. 3:8; 6:12].
He will be a king who will rule in a wise way;
he will do ·what is fair and right [justice and righteousness] in the land.

Jeremiah 30:8-9 Expanded Bible (EXB)
The Lord ·All-Powerful [Almighty; of Heaven’s Armies; T of hosts] says, “·At that time [L In that day]
I will break the yoke from ·their [or your] necks
and ·tear [snap] off the ropes that hold ·them [or you].
·Foreign people [L Strangers] will never again make my people slaves.
They will serve the Lord their God
and David their king,
whom I will ·send to [L raise up for] them.

To make the whole long enigma short, King David has long died when these prophets were mentioning David right - it would be weird if its really David. However Jer 23:5 ripped the whole thing wide open. Which said:

“The days are coming,” says the Lord,
“when I will raise up a ·good [righteous] branch ·in David’s family [L for David; Is. 4:2; Zech. 3:8; 6:12].

Who could that be, I wonder......

upload_2019-4-10_23-28-43.jpeg
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Consider the prophesies about the destruction of Egypt, Babylon, Damascus and Tyre.. ALL of them are still there.
Yes. Consider, 'destruction', might be a spiritual destruction, as well as war... Jesus said, His return is like the time of Noah. When Noah came, the flood happened, and continued, so is with return of Christ.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Yes. Consider, 'destruction', might be a spiritual destruction, as well as war... Jesus said, His return is like the time of Noah. When Noah came, the flood happened, and continued, so is with return of Christ.

Noah's global flood is a myth. How is myth LIKE Jesus return?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Noah's global flood is a myth. How is myth LIKE Jesus return?
Yes, Noah's flood is not a literal flood. It is a figurative story.
The Scriptures are more concerned with Spiritual death and destruction of humanity, rather than its physical destruction. The Revelations of God aim to revive or spiritually resurrect mankind, when it goes toward a spiritual death. The flood, is a symbol of destruction of the Spirituality in the World, and the Ark, is the symbol of the Faith of God. Whoever entered the Ark of Faith was saved from the flood of spiritual destruction. When Noah came, people are after their Worldly desires, and did not listen to Noah's Warnings, and thus the flood killed them spiritually. The flood is the transgressions and lust in the world. Then Noah spent 120 years to build the Ark. So, is with Return of Spirit of Christ. When He comes, people are too busy with their worldly desires and lust. Thus, they would not listen to His warnings, and the flood of sin and transgression kills them spiritually. This is why Jesus said 'therefore watch'!. And when the spirit of Christ return, it will take Him 120 years to build the Ark of Faith, i.e. the new Faith and its teachings. So did it come to pass.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
@IndigoChild5559
@MJFlores

If Prophets were fortune tellers who could predict the future, there would be NO free will.
I don't think foreknowledge means absolute predestination.

For example, let's say I'm a pedestrian at a stop light. I see a car with their left blinker on speeding up on a yellow too late, and the light turns green. As the other cars begin, I can SEE that an accident will occur. But that doesn't mean it HAD to happen. The first car CHOSE to speed up for the yellow.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Prophets aren’t Fortunetellers or Meteorologists (by C. A. Strine)

How does one explain with any intellectual honesty a Second Coming that Jesus said would come soon but didn’t? As Christopher mentioned in the first post, we believe it comes down to how one understands “predictive prophecy.”

We think that the statements about Jesus’ return in the Gospels are prophecies, which aren’t meant to be predictions of future events. Now that really sounds weird.

Except, it isn’t.

When most people read something called prophecy, especially predictive prophecy, they assume that the statements about the future intend to describe accurately what the prophet understands, through divine inspiration, will actually happen in the future.

We tend to think of prophets like divine meteorologists providing a long-term forecast. Predictions of doom and gloom or images of abundant blessing are taken to be statements about what the future will be like. That’s what prophets do: they tell us now about what things will be like then, some time in the future.

Only that’s not what the Old Testament tells us.

The Book of Jeremiah comes closest to giving a model for how predictive prophecy works, and it is rather different than the “predict the future” model.

Indeed, Jeremiah makes it very clear that some predictive prophecy is not meant to come pass at all.

Let’s look at Jeremiah 18:5-10. This passage explains that God reserves the possibility to change course even after the prophet who speaks on God’s behalf predicts blessing or cursing.

Then the word of the LORD came to me: Can I not do with you, O house of Israel, just as this potter has done? says the LORD. Just like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.

In other words, God may not send the predicted punishment if the people repent, or conversely withhold a predicted blessing if the people do evil in God’s sight.

Statements about the future are descriptions of how bad it might be, or how abundant God’s blessing could be. It all depends on what people do.

Prophecies are conditional statements. Predictive prophecies explain what is on offer, not what has already been decided.

This dynamic is highlighted later in Jeremiah (ch. 26, to be exact). After having prophesied the destruction of the Temple—obviously not a popular position in Jerusalem—the priests, the prophets, and all the people condemn Jeremiah to death (vv. 7-9) because of his prediction of doom.

But then the elders of the land recall that Micah had predicted a similar fate for Jerusalem. They also recall that, on that occasion, Hezekiah (the king reigning at that time) didn’t try to eliminate Micah because he was irked by his dire prophecy; rather, the threat of destruction provoked Hezekiah to plead with God to spare Jerusalem.

And God did. Crisis averted.

Micah’s prophecy didn’t come to pass, but drove Hezekiah to change his ways. And that made him a good prophet. A very good one indeed.

Prophecy does not simply seek to predict the future, but to change the present. The potential of future disaster is meant to change current behavior, to motivate people to repent, to turn back to God, and to live in a way that will persuade God to hold back judgment.

Or, when blessing is promised, prophecy aims to encourage people to persevere in following God’s commands, to do so with all the more conviction, and to remind them that backsliding into rebellion might convince God not to bestow the good things offered to them at all.

Prophets want to activate certain behaviors in their audiences, not prognosticate future events. They are like parents warning children against foolish behavior and encouraging good behavior, not weather forecasters attempting to tell you whether or not you’ll need an umbrella at noontime tomorrow.

This is the case around the ancient world and the Old Testament (as we discuss in the book
ir
).

Think, for instance, of the book of Jonah. This prophet is no doubt a comic figure, in a comical book, but surely one with a serious point.

Strine-speaking-header-image-180x180.jpg

C. A. (Casey) Strine
Why does Jonah resist going to Nineveh? Precisely because he knew that alerting the people of this foreign nation to the potential of God’s punishment would cause them to change their ways (Jon 4:1-4). Jonah wanted God to punish Nineveh; he knew his “prediction” of punishment could change their behavior and avoid that outcome; so he ran away.

In the book we show how this same view of prophecy lies beneath passages in Isaiah, 2 Samuel, early Jewish texts, and, as Christopher will explain in the next post, the New Testament too.

In the book we show how this same view of prophecy lies beneath passages in Isaiah, 2 Samuel, early Jewish texts, and, as Christopher will explain in the next post, the New Testament too.

Prophets are not fortunetellers or weather forecasters. They are not claiming to predict an inevitable, unchanging future, but to change the way that people live in the present.

When we read predictive prophecy—in the Old Testament, the Gospels, or elsewhere—we need to ask what it wants to activate us to do, not what it might prognosticate about the future.

As we’ll see in our next post, this is just what New Testament shows us.

[Part 3 coming tomorrow . . . ]

See some of Pete’s popular books: The Bible Tells Me So (HarperOne, 2014), Inspiration and Incarnation (Baker 2005/2015), and The Sin of Certainty (HarperOne, 2016).

Prophecies Aren’t Predictions of the Future (You Can Look It Up)

I'm still waiting to hear a prophecy that either isn't so vague it could mean virtually anything or was no different than an accurate prediction.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I'm looking for more info on the "School of the Prophets". Can you help with that @sooda?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I'm looking for more info on the "School of the Prophets". Can you help with that @sooda?

21 Bible verses about School Of Prophets - Knowing Jesus
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/School-Of-Prophets
All the prophets were prophesying thus, saying, "Go up to Ramoth-gilead and succeed, for the LORD will give it into the hand of the king." Then the messenger who went to summon Micaiah spoke to him saying, "Behold, the words of the prophets are uniformly favorable to the king.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
http://www.propheticschooltraining.com/school-of-the-prophets-in-the-bible/

18 So David fled and escaped, and went to Samuel at Ramah, and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and stayed in Naioth.19 Now it was told Saul, saying, “Take note, David is at Naioth in Ramah!”

20 Then Saul sent messengers to take David. And when they saw the group of prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as leader over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied. 1Samuel 19:18-20 In this passage, we see the first prophetic school mentioned in the bible, which was at Naioth in Ramah.

How do we know this was the first school of prophets? Or how do we even know it was a prophetic school? These are very good questions indeed. Before Samuel, there were prophets in the nation of Israel.

The first undeniable prophet of Israel was Moses himself. But he wasn't the leader of the a company of prophets as Samuel was. This wasn't the only prophet school of prophet.

There was another prophetic school at Bethel.3 Now the sons of the prophets who were at Bethel came out to Elisha, and said to him, “Do you know that the Lord will take away your master from over you today?” And he said, “Yes, I know; keep silent!”
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Schools of the Prophets (1 Sam. 19:18-24; 2 Kings 2:3, 5, 7, 12, 15) were instituted for the purpose of training young men for the prophetical and priestly offices.
What was the school of prophets? - Bible Questions Answered
https://www.gotquestions.org/school-of-prophets.html
What was the school of prophets? Question: "What was the school of prophets?" Answer: The Old Testament mentions a school of prophets in 1 Samuel 19:18–24 and in 2 Kings 2 and 4:38–44 (some translations say “company of prophets” or “sons of the prophets”).
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I don't think foreknowledge means absolute predestination.

For example, let's say I'm a pedestrian at a stop light. I see a car with their left blinker on speeding up on a yellow too late, and the light turns green. As the other cars begin, I can SEE that an accident will occur. But that doesn't mean it HAD to happen. The first car CHOSE to speed up for the yellow.

I don't think they had "foreknowledge"..

I think they were keen observers and political analysts. Forthtellers not Foretellers. I think they were the conscience of the community but had NO supernatural powers.

I read once that Jews didn't think prophets were futuretellers.. They just reminded the people of established truths.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Prophets aren’t Fortunetellers or Meteorologists (by C. A. Strine)
How does one explain with any intellectual honesty a Second Coming that Jesus said would come soon but didn’t?
As Christopher mentioned in the first post, we believe it comes down to how one understands “predictive prophecy.”
We think that the statements about Jesus’ return in the Gospels are prophecies, which aren’t meant to be predictions of future events. Now that really sounds weird. Except, it isn’t.

'How does one explain' is easily explained by Jesus' intellectual words found at Luke 19:11-15.
Please notice at Luke 19:11 Jesus explains with intelligence the kingdom would Not immediately or suddenly appear.
Luke continues explaining at Acts of the Apostles 1:6-8 that before Jesus would return the good news (Matthew 24:14) would first be proclaimed to the uttermost or remote parts of the Earth.
In other words, emphasis was placed on how extensive (international) the work would be as it is being done today.
This follows along with that pattern as found at 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.
Before Jesus returns the ' powers that be ' will be saying, " Peace and Security..." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14, 9 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
Nothing weird about such coming future events to take place, and starting with the soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth as mentioned at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
'How does one explain' is easily explained by Jesus' intellectual words found at Luke 19:11-15.
Please notice at Luke 19:11 Jesus explains with intelligence the kingdom would Not immediately or suddenly appear.
Luke continues explaining at Acts of the Apostles 1:6-8 that before Jesus would return the good news (Matthew 24:14) would first be proclaimed to the uttermost or remote parts of the Earth.
In other words, emphasis was placed on how extensive (international) the work would be as it is being done today.
This follows along with that pattern as found at 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.
Before Jesus returns the ' powers that be ' will be saying, " Peace and Security..." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14, 9 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
Nothing weird about such coming future events to take place, and starting with the soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth as mentioned at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.

Do you think Jesus meant the whole earth or their world?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Do you think Jesus meant the whole earth or their world?
First, I find the Bible teaches that the Earth will abide forever - Ecclesiastes 1:4 B
So, to me that means the whole Earth existing along with the world of mankind on Earth.- Psalms 115:16.
The coming ' healing ' for ALL of earth's nations as mentioned at Revelation 22:2 includes the whole world.
This ' healing ' (earth wide) is a reason why we are all invited to pray the invitation or Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come!
Come and bring 'healing' to earth's nations (ALL the nations in all the whole earth, the whole world), then mankind on Earth will see the return of the Genesis "tree of life" for the healing of earth's nations.
Under Christ, even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why does Jonah resist going to Nineveh?
Primarily because the story of Jonah can be understood in the category of Challenge Parables. According to Dominic Crossan who explains the different types of parables found and used in the Bible and by Jesus. The basic types are riddle parables, typically with deadly consequences; example parables which are used to illustrate moral lessons, and challenge parables, which are intended to disrupt current beliefs and views by turning the story on its head, and the bad guy is good, and the good guys are bad. The Good Samaritan is an example of challenge parable. Most of Jesus' parables were that.

So with Jonah, prophets are supposed to be the ultra-obienent ones to God, yet here you have a prophet who thumbs his nose at God. That would jar anyone hearing that. A disobedient prophet, is a self-contradiction, an oxymoron.

Secondly you have the king of a gentile nation repenting upon hearing the shortest prophecy ever, "Forty days more and Nineveh will be destroyed." And so in the story, the gentile king turns everything completely around upon hearing this warning from a prophet from another nation. Such a story upon the ears of the listener would again contract everything they held to be true.

A disobedient prophet, and a repentant gentile king of one of the most reviled nations amongst the Jews of the time? It's upside down world. It's meant to rock the boat, like some teenager saying things to shake up mom and dad, or dressing up in clothes they know they will hate. The story of Jonah as a challenge parable is a "particular story against general ideology, parable against myth, and pin against ballon," according to Crossan.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I'm still waiting to hear a prophecy that either isn't so vague it could mean virtually anything or was no different than an accurate prediction.

To me Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 isn't vague because the proclaiming about the good news of God's Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is now being proclaimed on a vast international scale as never before in history.
Even modern technology has made rapid Bible translation possible so that people living in remote areas of Earth can now have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages, thus fulfilling what Jesus said.
So, this is not vague, but means we have reached the ' final phase ' of that global preaching work.

I find many people think things are getting out of hand.
To me this ties is with the description of how self-centered people have a distorted form of love as described at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 which is in sharp contrast to the definition of Christ-like love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6.

Whether labeled as prediction or prophecy 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 lets us know we are nearing the coming ' final signal ', so to speak, when the ' powers that be ' will be saying, " Peace and Security.." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
 
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