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Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
This is what Rabbi Michael Skobac has to say on this matter (his footnotes are shown in brackets):

‘One of the major problems facing the Christian enterprise has been its inability to produce even one passage from the Jewish Scriptures that clearly articulates their theology. The centrepiece of Christian doctrine is the claim that Jesus came to die as a sacrifice for the sins of the world and that unless one believes in him one is doomed to eternal damnation in hell. There is no place in the Tanach that teaches this, and all attempts by missionaries to shoehorn this belief back into the text are as futile as trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

‘When pressed to offer a definitive source for their foundational doctrine, missionaries will confidently point to the fifty-third chapter of the book of Isaiah (the fact that Christians are only able to produce one dubious source in the Jewish Scriptures for their central doctrine is itself a significant problem. The Jewish concept of the Messiah is based upon a solid foundation of numerous indisputable passages throughout the Bible. As well, the contention that it is only the death of the Messiah that can alleviate the burden of our sins would negate the mountain of Biblical teaching concerning the effectiveness of repentance).

‘In order for this passage to serve as a proof for Christian doctrine, it would have to be clear and unambiguous that the suffering servant of the Lord is understood to be the Messiah. What is immediately self-evident is that this assumption is far from clear. Many Christian commentaries to Isaiah concede that this chapter is not about the Messiah or about Jesus. They understand that the Servant here is the nation of Israel. Why would they take such a view if the chapter were clearly portraying Jesus as the Messiah? Early followers of Jesus did not understand this chapter to be about the suffering of the Messiah (Matthew 16:21–22; Mark 9:30–32; Luke 9:43–45).

‘The book of Isaiah doesn’t begin in the fifty-third chapter. In the preceding chapters, Isaiah identifies God’s servant as the nation of Israel: 41:8–9, 43:10, 44:1–2 and 21, 45:4, 48:20, and 49:3. Isaiah describes Israel as God’s servants in subsequent chapters as well: 54:17, 65:8–9, 13–15, and 66:14.44. Throughout the Tanach, Israel is repeatedly identified as God’s servant: Leviticus 25:42, 55; Deuteronomy 32:36, 43; Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27–28; Ezekiel 28:25; Psalms 79:10, 135:1, 136:22; Nehemiah 1:6, 10–11; I Chronicles 16:13. Interestingly, even the New Testament, in Luke 1:54, identifies Israel as God’s servant.

‘Significantly, the surrounding chapters 52 and 54 movingly describe the historical suffering and ultimate redemption of Israel. It would be reasonable to assume that Chapter 53 follows this theme as well. (Missionaries erroneously insist that this is a late view that was first advanced by Rashi in the eleventh century. This is simply not the case. There are numerous references in Rabbinic literature, going back long before Rashi, identifying God’s servant with Israel. The second century church father Origen, in his Contra Celsum, writes that identifying God’s servant with the nation was the way Jewish sages understood this chapter in his time). The vast majority of Jewish Biblical commentaries, and numerous Christian scholars, understand God’s suffering servant to be the people of Israel or a righteous remnant of Israel. Some Rabbinic sources view the servant as the Messiah. However, it is crucial to understand that their view of Messiah is vastly different from the Christian concept.

‘The normative Jewish understanding is that the Messiah is the leader of the nation. As such, his fate is intertwined with that of the people. When Isaiah speaks of the exaltation of the servant (52:13), he is speaking of the nation at the time when the Messiah will be at their helm. However, in the Christian perspective, the Messiah is seen as a divine being totally disconnected from the nation of Israel. His fate has nothing to do with the fate of the people.

‘Of course, even if we were to assume that the subject of Isaiah’s prophecy is the Messiah, there is no proof it is speaking about Jesus. This is simply an assumption that Christianity makes, lacking any compelling evidence.’ (‘You Turn! The Jewish Response to a Christian Challenge’).

I have nothing to add.

I don't know how to respond to a Muslim quoting a Rabbi's complaint about Christian doctrines.
Maybe I will ask a Buddhist or a Hindu.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
David is prophesied as the Messiah across the Tanakh (Ezekiel 34:23-24, Ezekiel 37:24-25, Jeremiah 23:5, Jeremiah 30:8-9, Jeremiah 33:15, Hosea 3:5, Isaiah 55:3, Isaiah 22:22, Isaiah 9:6-7, etc).

Yehoshua is a symbolic name given to the Branch of David, with Yehoshua (Hosea) son of Nun, Yehoshua son of Yehozadek, and Yehoshua son of Yoseph.

The Salvation (Yeshua) from God performed many marvelous works (פּלא - H6381) in the Tanakh, and prophesied it would become the root of David.

H3444 (Yeshua) + H1961 (To become) = Exodus 15:2-3, Psalms 118:14-21, Isaiah 12:2 (2 Samuel 10:11 David Vs Ammon) +5 Verses Isaiah.

H3444 (Yeshua) + H7200 (To see) = Exodus 14:13, Psalms 98:3, Isaiah 52:10 (2 Chronicles 20:17 Jehoshaphat Vs Ammon).

Arm of the Lord is used as a header from Isaiah 52:10 to Isaiah 53:1 (Rumour), which means contextually it is all applicable, and thus it defines who it is talking about precisely:

The spirit of salvation is put into a righteous vessel from the root of David, this person then leads many to righteousness through their knowledge; yet since some turn him into a sacrificial offering, it creates a Bed of Adultery (Isaiah 28:9-21 - Rumour to Rumour), to catch out those who swear falsely, and those who steal what isn't theirs (Isaiah 8, Zechariah 5).

In my opinion. :innocent:

Ezekiel (Yechezkel) was a prophet who lived in Babylonia at the time of the destruction of the First Temple.

So he lived after King David?????
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Reading the Bible like it is all a history book is a problem, as some of it is prophetic poetry using scatting across time, and thus we have to use keyword referencing to establish exegesis; not just guess on some historical whim.

The prophets speak as a unified whole, and only by using Strongs numbers, can we see the levels of intertextuality needed to understand the code - if we consider humans created computer languages, using advanced layers of structuring, the Bible works the same.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Reading the Bible like it is all a history book is a problem, as some of it is prophetic poetry using scatting across time, and thus we have to use keyword referencing to establish exegesis; not just guess on some historical whim.

The prophets speak as a unified whole, and only by using Strongs numbers, can we see the levels of intertextuality needed to understand the code - if we consider humans created computer languages, using advanced layers of structuring, the Bible works the same.

In my opinion. :innocent:

I don't know what your computer remarks mean.. How did Ezekiel PREDICT King David after the fact?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Make sense for Hosea 14:6-7 and Hosea 11:1
But not for Judges 20:17 and Ezekiel 34:31
But then again, the previous verses I have shown depicts Israel as she, wife, her, harlot etc.
I think it would be on the context of Isa 53 in relation with the preceding chapter Isa 52
So you made a claim that Israel was not referred to as male and I showed it wrong. Throughout Isaiah, the nation is explicitly identified with the servant (starting in 41:8) and when that image is used, the pronouns are masculine (when the image switches, the pronouns do -- follow the images and don't be led by pronouns). So when, in 53, there is reference to the same image, the same pronouns are masculine and the same object is the servant.The proper thing to do would be to acknowledge that maybe your position isn't so iron clad. But then you double down on old points.

Maybe you should read up on how Israel, and not Jesus satisfies the various elements of Isaiah's prophecy. This isn't new stuff.
The Suffering Servant
 
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Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
I don't know much about Hagee. I'll have to read up on him.. I have a vague notion that he's a crackpot.

Ha! He's a staunch "evangelical" supporter of Trump and
was granted permission to give the closing benediction at the opening of the U.S. embassy in Jerusalem. Not bad, ... for a crackpot, eh?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Ha! He's a staunch "evangelical" supporter of Trump and
was granted permission to give the closing benediction at the opening of the U.S. embassy in Jerusalem. Not bad, ... for a crackpot, eh?

I have been reading about him.. Is he crazy or just a con artist?
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Is he crazy or just a con artist?

You want me to comment on the sanity or the ethics of a man who is a "good ol' boy" from Texas, the spiritual leader of thousands, a long-time televangelist, a staunch "friend of Israel," and "supporter of Trump"? Not by the hair of my chinny-chin-chin.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The Suffering Servant is also the Sensible Slave in Mathew 24, of the New Testament. He prepares the way for the second coming of Christ. The sensible slave has to maintain his focus, since he is not perfect. He is a son of man and not a son of God. He has a job to do, but he is also human and not perfect. He is a slave and not a free man.

In Mathew 24; 45-51,
45 "Who then is a faithful and sensible slave, whom his master has put in charge of his household, to give them food at the proper time?
46 That slave whose master finds him working when he comes will be rewarded.
47 I assure you: He will put him in charge of all his possessions.
48 But if that wicked slave says in his heart, 'My master is delayed,'
49and starts to beat his fellow slaves, and eats and drinks with drunkards,
50 that slave's master will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not know.
51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In Isaiah 53, the suffering servant is not someone anyone would expect. He has no stately form. Instead he is plain and acquainted with grief. He is someone who is avoided and ignored.

1Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,and like a root out of dry ground. He had nostately form or majesty to attract us, no beautythat we should desire Him. 3He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief. Like one from whom men hide their faces, He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.…

In Isaiah 50-1

1This is what the LORD says: “Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce with which I sent her away? Or to which of My creditors did I sell you? Look, you were sold for your iniquities, and for your transgressions your mother was sent away. 2Why was no one there when I arrived? Why did no one answer when I called? Is My hand too short to redeem you? Or do I lack the strength to deliver you? Behold, My rebuke dries up the sea; I turn the rivers into a desert; the fish rot for lack of water and they die of thirst.…

This quote from Isaiah says the mother of the servant was sent away. This precludes Jesus being the Suffering servant, since Mary was always with Jesus.

The suffering servant and sensible slave is also the White Horseman. In Mathew 24, the time of the coming is one where hearts will grow cold and there is conflict and war. The White Horseman has a bow and arrow and gold crown on his head. He is able to reach the hearts of man; Cupid, from a distance, while passing in safety. He is does not initially have a sword for close fighting.


The sword, for in fighting, comes later, when the servant transitioned into the persona of the Red Horseman.

Malachi 3:2

1“Behold, I will send My messenger, who will prepare the way before Me. Then the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple—the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight—see, He is coming,” says the LORD of Hosts. 2But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He will be like a refiner’s fire,like a launderer's soap. 3And He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver. Then they will present offerings to the LORD in righteousness.…
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@MJFlores ,

I hear you. My personal opinion is this:

The most compelling reasons for a person to believe Jesus Christ is THE LORD are the stories in the New Testament and the Resurrection. What you and @wizanda are saying about the Old Testament is interesting, but, it is not very convincing.

My question is:

Why dwell on the Old Testament if it is not strong convincing evidence that Jesus is LORD?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Yehoshua son of Yoseph.
I respect you, and respect your opinion and your knowledge...

But I was not aware that Joseph had a son named Joshua.

Am I translating wrong, or forgetting something?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The Suffering Servant is also the Sensible Slave in Mathew 24, of the New Testament. He prepares the way for the second coming of Christ. The sensible slave has to maintain his focus, since he is not perfect. He is a son of man and not a son of God. He has a job to do, but he is also human and not perfect. He is a slave and not a free man.

In Mathew 24; 45-51,


In Isaiah 53, the suffering servant is not someone anyone would expect. He has no stately form. Instead he is plain and acquainted with grief. He is someone who is avoided and ignored.



In Isaiah 50-1



This quote from Isaiah says the mother of the servant was sent away. This precludes Jesus being the Suffering servant, since Mary was always with Jesus.

The suffering servant and sensible slave is also the White Horseman. In Mathew 24, the time of the coming is one where hearts will grow cold and there is conflict and war. The White Horseman has a bow and arrow and gold crown on his head. He is able to reach the hearts of man; Cupid, from a distance, while passing in safety. He is does not initially have a sword for close fighting.


The sword, for in fighting, comes later, when the servant transitioned into the persona of the Red Horseman.

Malachi 3:2

I thought the switch was to refer to Israel in the feminine and god her bridegroom.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I respect you, and respect your opinion and your knowledge...

But I was not aware that Joseph had a son named Joshua.

Am I translating wrong, or forgetting something?

Joshua Ben Joseph and Jesus of Nazareth. Joshua ben Joseph was Jesus' given name at birth, he grew up being known as Joshua (son of Joseph). He was only later called Jesus by the Greeks, Jesus being the Greek form of Joshua. Throughout Part IV of The Urantia Book, you will see the name Joshua and the name Jesus even in the same paragraph.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Joshua Ben Joseph and Jesus of Nazareth. Joshua ben Joseph was Jesus' given name at birth, he grew up being known as Joshua (son of Joseph). He was only later called Jesus by the Greeks, Jesus being the Greek form of Joshua. Throughout Part IV of The Urantia Book, you will see the name Joshua and the name Jesus even in the same paragraph.
Thank you! **That** Joseph....
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
So you made a claim that Israel was not referred to as male and I showed it wrong. Throughout Isaiah, the nation is explicitly identified with the servant (starting in 41:8) and when that image is used, the pronouns are masculine (when the image switches, the pronouns do -- follow the images and don't be led by pronouns). So when, in 53, there is reference to the same image, the same pronouns are masculine and the same object is the servant.The proper thing to do would be to acknowledge that maybe your position isn't so iron clad. But then you double down on old points.

Maybe you should read up on how Israel, and not Jesus satisfies the various elements of Isaiah's prophecy. This isn't new stuff.
The Suffering Servant

I think Isa 53 was resolved @dybmh gave a very important pivotal point.
I checked with the Jewish Bible and it was really a pronoun masculine and cant be Israel but Jesus.

Yeshayah 53 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

Who hath believed our report? And to whom is the Zero’a Hashem [Yeshayah 52:10] revealed?

For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a Shoresh (Root, Shoresh Yishai, Moshiach, Yeshayah 11:10, Sanhedrin93b) out of a dry ground; he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire [Chaggai 2:7] him.

He is despised and chadal ishim (rejected by men); a man of sorrows, and acquainted with suffering; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he hath borne our sufferings, and nasah (carried [Vayikra 16:22; Yeshayah 53:12)] our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, [i.e., like a leper is stricken] smitten of G-d, and afflicted [see verse 8 below].

But he was pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei’avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach’s) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own derech (way; see Prov 16:25); and Hashem hath laid on him [Moshiach] the avon (iniquity, the guilt that separates from G-d) of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a seh (lamb; see Shemot 12:3) to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who of his generation declared? For he was cut off [Daniel 9:26; Vayikra 17:10] out of Eretz Chayyim [this refers to the mot of Moshiach Ben Dovid, see v.12] mipesha ami (for the transgression of my people [Yisroel]) nega (plague cf Ps 91:10) lamo ([fell] on him [i.e., Moshiach; in light of Ps 11:7 and Job 22:2 we are warranted in saying the suffix is a singular, "him," not "them". Cf Gen 9:26-27; Deut 33:2; Isa 44:15; also compare Divrey Hayamim Alef 21:17]).

And he made his kever (grave) with the resha’im, and with the oisher (rich man; see Mt 27:57-60) bemotayv (in his deaths, intensive plural should be translated singular, death); because he had done no chamas (violence), neither was any mirmah (deceit) in his mouth. T.N. We stray as sheep; we return in Moshiach as children (zera); the Techiyas HaMoshiach (Resurrection of Moshiach) predicted in v. 10 [Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah Scroll says Moshiach "will see the light [of life];" see also the Targum HaShivim]

Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach’s] hand.

He [Hashem] shall see of the travail of his [Moshiach’s] nefesh, and shall be satisfied; by knowledge of him [Moshiach] shall Tzadik Avdi ["My Righteous Servant," Moshiach, Zecharyah 3:8, Yirmeyah 23:5; Zecharyah 6:11-12, Ezra 3:8 Yehoshua, Yeshua shmo] justify many (Ro 5:1); for he [Moshiach] shall bear their avon (iniquities).

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his nefesh unto mavet (death); and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he nasah (Lv 16:22, carried) (like the Yom Kippur scapegoat) the sin of many, and made intercession [did the work of a mafgi’a, intercessor] for the transgressors [see Lk 23:34 OJBC].

upload_2019-4-10_21-35-59.jpeg


Owww!
This is what looks like when Asian people start talking Yiddish
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I think Isa 53 was resolved @dybmh gave a very important pivotal point.
I checked with the Jewish Bible and it was really a pronoun masculine and cant be Israel but Jesus.

Yeshayah 53 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

Who hath believed our report? And to whom is the Zero’a Hashem [Yeshayah 52:10] revealed?

For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a Shoresh (Root, Shoresh Yishai, Moshiach, Yeshayah 11:10, Sanhedrin93b) out of a dry ground; he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire [Chaggai 2:7] him.

He is despised and chadal ishim (rejected by men); a man of sorrows, and acquainted with suffering; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he hath borne our sufferings, and nasah (carried [Vayikra 16:22; Yeshayah 53:12)] our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, [i.e., like a leper is stricken] smitten of G-d, and afflicted [see verse 8 below].

But he was pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei’avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach’s) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own derech (way; see Prov 16:25); and Hashem hath laid on him [Moshiach] the avon (iniquity, the guilt that separates from G-d) of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a seh (lamb; see Shemot 12:3) to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who of his generation declared? For he was cut off [Daniel 9:26; Vayikra 17:10] out of Eretz Chayyim [this refers to the mot of Moshiach Ben Dovid, see v.12] mipesha ami (for the transgression of my people [Yisroel]) nega (plague cf Ps 91:10) lamo ([fell] on him [i.e., Moshiach; in light of Ps 11:7 and Job 22:2 we are warranted in saying the suffix is a singular, "him," not "them". Cf Gen 9:26-27; Deut 33:2; Isa 44:15; also compare Divrey Hayamim Alef 21:17]).

And he made his kever (grave) with the resha’im, and with the oisher (rich man; see Mt 27:57-60) bemotayv (in his deaths, intensive plural should be translated singular, death); because he had done no chamas (violence), neither was any mirmah (deceit) in his mouth. T.N. We stray as sheep; we return in Moshiach as children (zera); the Techiyas HaMoshiach (Resurrection of Moshiach) predicted in v. 10 [Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah Scroll says Moshiach "will see the light [of life];" see also the Targum HaShivim]

Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach’s] hand.

He [Hashem] shall see of the travail of his [Moshiach’s] nefesh, and shall be satisfied; by knowledge of him [Moshiach] shall Tzadik Avdi ["My Righteous Servant," Moshiach, Zecharyah 3:8, Yirmeyah 23:5; Zecharyah 6:11-12, Ezra 3:8 Yehoshua, Yeshua shmo] justify many (Ro 5:1); for he [Moshiach] shall bear their avon (iniquities).

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his nefesh unto mavet (death); and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he nasah (Lv 16:22, carried) (like the Yom Kippur scapegoat) the sin of many, and made intercession [did the work of a mafgi’a, intercessor] for the transgressors [see Lk 23:34 OJBC].

View attachment 28150

Owww!
This is what looks like when Asian people start talking Yiddish
I always find it funny when people quote the "OJB" as if it has any place in Judaism. It is a Christian text which " applies Yiddish and Hasidic cultural expressions to the Messianic Bible. " Useless.

I also note that you wrote "I checked with the Jewish Bible and it was really a pronoun masculine and cant be Israel but Jesus." And you say this even though I have shown you that the nation is, in many places, referred to in the masculine.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
@MJFlores ,

I hear you. My personal opinion is this:

The most compelling reasons for a person to believe Jesus Christ is THE LORD are the stories in the New Testament and the Resurrection. What you and @wizanda are saying about the Old Testament is interesting, but, it is not very convincing.

My question is:

Why dwell on the Old Testament if it is not strong convincing evidence that Jesus is LORD?

Because Jesus said:

Matthew 13:52 New International Version (NIV)
He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.

new treasures are new testament scriptures and the old treasures are old testament scriptures

John 5:39 New International Version (NIV)
You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
 

sooda

Veteran Member
So you made a claim that Israel was not referred to as male and I showed it wrong.

Throughout Isaiah, the nation is explicitly identified with the servant (starting in 41:8) and when that image is used, the pronouns are masculine (when the image switches, the pronouns do -- follow the images and don't be led by pronouns). So when, in 53, there is reference to the same image, the same pronouns are masculine and the same object is the servant.The proper thing to do would be to acknowledge that maybe your position isn't so iron clad. But then you double down on old points.

Maybe you should read up on how Israel, and not Jesus satisfies the various elements of Isaiah's prophecy. This isn't new stuff.
The Suffering Servant

IMO.. Its wrong for Christians to hijack and change the meaning of scripture.. As a Christian its not something to be proud of.
 
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