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They Are Not Christians!

sooda

Veteran Member
Actually, no. The whore of babylon has been defined as corrupt government systems, the RC church, and other human and satanic entities. She is prominent in Revelation, therefore is prophecy.

For a Christian she is defined by the eschatology one embraces and interpretation of prophecy.

I personally have never heard of Israel defined as such, but there are a myriad of beliefs out there.

If one is in harmony with God based upon fundamental Christian precepts, prophetic interpretation is not that important.

We know that time will end, and God will prevail, thatś enough.

The Angel said that he will tell us the mystery of the Woman (Rev 17:7, 18). In fact, the whole book of Revelation gives us clues, so we will start our investigation there. Once we have the internal clues the external evidence shouldn't be too hard to find...



    • The Woman is called "Sodom" and "Egypt" and "Babylon" (Revelation 11:8; 17:5, 14:8, 18:10, 21).
    • The Woman is located where Jesus was crucified (Revelation 11:8).
    • The Woman's dwelling place becomes a River of Blood (Revelation 14:20).
    • The Woman is Split into 3 Divisions (Revelation 16:19).
    • The Woman "sits on many waters" (Revelation 17:1) and these "waters" are diverse peoples (Revelation 17:15).
    • The Woman has fornicated with the Heathen World against God (Revelation 17:2, 18:3, 18:9).
    • The Woman is born along on a Beast (Revelation 17:3).
    • The Woman is the Mother of all Whores and Abominable Atrocities (Revelation 17:5).
    • The Woman is Drunk on the Blood of O.T. & N.T. Saints (Revelation 17:6, 18:24, 18:20).
    • The Woman is responsible for the death of the Prophets and Apostles (Revelation 17:6, 18:20, 18:24).
    • The Woman sits on 7 Mountains (Revelation 17:9).
    • The Woman is a dwelling place of devils (Revelation 18:2).
    • The Woman is a Prison for Evil Spirits (Revelation 18:2).
    • The Woman is a Cage, full of Dirty Birds (Revelation 18:2).
    • The Woman has a Full Cup of Iniquities (Revelation 18:5).
    • The Woman is Doubly Judged (Revelation 18:6).
    • The Woman considers herself a Queen (Revelation 18:7).
    • The Woman still considers herself Married (Revelation 18:7).
    • The Woman was Rich and Mourned when Judged (Revelation 18:10, 16-19).
    • The Woman merchandised the Souls of Men (Revelation 18:13).
    • The Woman is pronounced Desolate (Revelation 18:19).
    • The Woman's sound of Joy is taken away (Revelation 18:22).
    • The Woman's position of Creativity is taken away (Revelation 18:22).
    • The Woman's authority as someone equipped to Judge is removed (Revelation 18:22).
    • The Woman's Light-Bearing ability is snuffed out (Revelation 18:23).
    • The Woman's Bridegroom has Divorced Her (Revelation 18:23).
    • The Woman's Engagement/Marriage has been annulled/abrogated (Rev 18:23).
    • The Woman is called "This/That Great City" (Revelation 11:8, 14:8, 16:19, 17:18, 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21, 21:10).






The Woman = Jerusalem




The most compelling evidence that the woman is Jerusalem is that scripture says it's where Jesus was crucified! (Revelation 11:8). Compare Jerusalem before her Judgment: (Revelation 11:8) and after Her Judgment (Revelation 21:10).

You do know that Queen Berneice and Titus were having and affair. She was the granddaughter of Herod.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
There is NO question that the whore of Babylon is Israel.. The Bible makes that crystal clear. What are you trying to pull?
So, please give verse by verse citations for this.

I have been a Bible teacher, preacher and Elder. I have studied the history of Christianity formally.

I have read books on eschatology and prophetic interpretation for 50 years, from different Christian denominations.

If I am pulling anything, it would only be the exposure of how you are misinformed.

I could be wrong, prove it.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
So, please give verse by verse citations for this.

I have been a Bible teacher, preacher and Elder. I have studied the history of Christianity formally.

I have read books on eschatology and prophetic interpretation for 50 years, from different Christian denominations.

If I am pulling anything, it would only be the exposure of how you are misinformed.

I could be wrong, prove it.

I am so sorry... What sort of church?

The Angel said that he will tell us the mystery of the Woman (Rev 17:7, 18). In fact, the whole book of Revelation gives us clues, so we will start our investigation there. Once we have the internal clues the external evidence shouldn't be too hard to find...



    • The Woman is called "Sodom" and "Egypt" and "Babylon" (Revelation 11:8; 17:5, 14:8, 18:10, 21).
    • The Woman is located where Jesus was crucified (Revelation 11:8).
    • The Woman's dwelling place becomes a River of Blood (Revelation 14:20).
    • The Woman is Split into 3 Divisions (Revelation 16:19).
    • The Woman "sits on many waters" (Revelation 17:1) and these "waters" are diverse peoples (Revelation 17:15).
    • The Woman has fornicated with the Heathen World against God (Revelation 17:2, 18:3, 18:9).
    • The Woman is born along on a Beast (Revelation 17:3).
    • The Woman is the Mother of all Whores and Abominable Atrocities (Revelation 17:5).
    • The Woman is Drunk on the Blood of O.T. & N.T. Saints (Revelation 17:6, 18:24, 18:20).
    • The Woman is responsible for the death of the Prophets and Apostles (Revelation 17:6, 18:20, 18:24).
    • The Woman sits on 7 Mountains (Revelation 17:9).
    • The Woman is a dwelling place of devils (Revelation 18:2).
    • The Woman is a Prison for Evil Spirits (Revelation 18:2).
    • The Woman is a Cage, full of Dirty Birds (Revelation 18:2).
    • The Woman has a Full Cup of Iniquities (Revelation 18:5).
    • The Woman is Doubly Judged (Revelation 18:6).
    • The Woman considers herself a Queen (Revelation 18:7).
    • The Woman still considers herself Married (Revelation 18:7).
    • The Woman was Rich and Mourned when Judged (Revelation 18:10, 16-19).
    • The Woman merchandised the Souls of Men (Revelation 18:13).
    • The Woman is pronounced Desolate (Revelation 18:19).
    • The Woman's sound of Joy is taken away (Revelation 18:22).
    • The Woman's position of Creativity is taken away (Revelation 18:22).
    • The Woman's authority as someone equipped to Judge is removed (Revelation 18:22).
    • The Woman's Light-Bearing ability is snuffed out (Revelation 18:23).
    • The Woman's Bridegroom has Divorced Her (Revelation 18:23).
    • The Woman's Engagement/Marriage has been annulled/abrogated (Rev 18:23).
  • The Woman is called "This/That Great City" (Revelation 11:8, 14:8, 16:19, 17:18, 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21, 21:10).


The Woman = Jerusalem




The most compelling evidence that the woman is Jerusalem is that scripture says it's where Jesus was crucified! (Revelation 11:8). Compare Jerusalem before her Judgment: (Revelation 11:8) and after Her Judgment (Revelation 21:10).

Some of these are double accusations.. Queen Berneice was having and affair with Titus.. You do know who they are, don't you?
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Thats the funniest thing i ever heard about that, a christian church inviting cold, hardened sinners to the services. Most churches only deal in affluency. They pick the people with the best dress for success. The preferred sinner! They'd be in shock how radical the Bible is about spreading the Gospel of salvation. Saves to the uttermost, and Jonah's unwillingness to preach to his enemies at first. Paul was executed by the Romans even. and so forth!

The cards dont fall fast enough on this religion.

Doing good in the face of evil is a noble endeavour. But loving your enemies because you were once as they. Generalizing the whole of humanity under sin. Where is the evidence that this is so? How would you justify Gandhi in hell, and Dahmer in heaven. I mean the uttermost wicked sinner you can think of has this opportunity for salvation, and all the people that have died never being as bad that never accepted Jesus as Saviour and Lord.

It begs the question of where's the reality in all of this?

I think its pretty darn sinful to not recognize the goodness of a non believer.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
The Angel said that he will tell us the mystery of the Woman (Rev 17:7, 18). In fact, the whole book of Revelation gives us clues, so we will start our investigation there. Once we have the internal clues the external evidence shouldn't be too hard to find...



    • The Woman is called "Sodom" and "Egypt" and "Babylon" (Revelation 11:8; 17:5, 14:8, 18:10, 21).
    • The Woman is located where Jesus was crucified (Revelation 11:8).
    • The Woman's dwelling place becomes a River of Blood (Revelation 14:20).
    • The Woman is Split into 3 Divisions (Revelation 16:19).
    • The Woman "sits on many waters" (Revelation 17:1) and these "waters" are diverse peoples (Revelation 17:15).
    • The Woman has fornicated with the Heathen World against God (Revelation 17:2, 18:3, 18:9).
    • The Woman is born along on a Beast (Revelation 17:3).
    • The Woman is the Mother of all Whores and Abominable Atrocities (Revelation 17:5).
    • The Woman is Drunk on the Blood of O.T. & N.T. Saints (Revelation 17:6, 18:24, 18:20).
    • The Woman is responsible for the death of the Prophets and Apostles (Revelation 17:6, 18:20, 18:24).
    • The Woman sits on 7 Mountains (Revelation 17:9).
    • The Woman is a dwelling place of devils (Revelation 18:2).
    • The Woman is a Prison for Evil Spirits (Revelation 18:2).
    • The Woman is a Cage, full of Dirty Birds (Revelation 18:2).
    • The Woman has a Full Cup of Iniquities (Revelation 18:5).
    • The Woman is Doubly Judged (Revelation 18:6).
    • The Woman considers herself a Queen (Revelation 18:7).
    • The Woman still considers herself Married (Revelation 18:7).
    • The Woman was Rich and Mourned when Judged (Revelation 18:10, 16-19).
    • The Woman merchandised the Souls of Men (Revelation 18:13).
    • The Woman is pronounced Desolate (Revelation 18:19).
    • The Woman's sound of Joy is taken away (Revelation 18:22).
    • The Woman's position of Creativity is taken away (Revelation 18:22).
    • The Woman's authority as someone equipped to Judge is removed (Revelation 18:22).
    • The Woman's Light-Bearing ability is snuffed out (Revelation 18:23).
    • The Woman's Bridegroom has Divorced Her (Revelation 18:23).
    • The Woman's Engagement/Marriage has been annulled/abrogated (Rev 18:23).
    • The Woman is called "This/That Great City" (Revelation 11:8, 14:8, 16:19, 17:18, 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21, 21:10).






The Woman = Jerusalem




The most compelling evidence that the woman is Jerusalem is that scripture says it's where Jesus was crucified! (Revelation 11:8). Compare Jerusalem before her Judgment: (Revelation 11:8) and after Her Judgment (Revelation 21:10).

You do know that Queen Berneice and Titus were having and affair. She was the granddaughter of Herod.[/

In 70 AD they were scattered from their land, but in 1948 AD, they fought for what was theirs, and won it back. They will never be displaced again.
The Angel said that he will tell us the mystery of the Woman (Rev 17:7, 18). In fact, the whole book of Revelation gives us clues, so we will start our investigation there. Once we have the internal clues the external evidence shouldn't be too hard to find...



    • The Woman is called "Sodom" and "Egypt" and "Babylon" (Revelation 11:8; 17:5, 14:8, 18:10, 21).
    • The Woman is located where Jesus was crucified (Revelation 11:8).
    • The Woman's dwelling place becomes a River of Blood (Revelation 14:20).
    • The Woman is Split into 3 Divisions (Revelation 16:19).
    • The Woman "sits on many waters" (Revelation 17:1) and these "waters" are diverse peoples (Revelation 17:15).
    • The Woman has fornicated with the Heathen World against God (Revelation 17:2, 18:3, 18:9).
    • The Woman is born along on a Beast (Revelation 17:3).
    • The Woman is the Mother of all Whores and Abominable Atrocities (Revelation 17:5).
    • The Woman is Drunk on the Blood of O.T. & N.T. Saints (Revelation 17:6, 18:24, 18:20).
    • The Woman is responsible for the death of the Prophets and Apostles (Revelation 17:6, 18:20, 18:24).
    • The Woman sits on 7 Mountains (Revelation 17:9).
    • The Woman is a dwelling place of devils (Revelation 18:2).
    • The Woman is a Prison for Evil Spirits (Revelation 18:2).
    • The Woman is a Cage, full of Dirty Birds (Revelation 18:2).
    • The Woman has a Full Cup of Iniquities (Revelation 18:5).
    • The Woman is Doubly Judged (Revelation 18:6).
    • The Woman considers herself a Queen (Revelation 18:7).
    • The Woman still considers herself Married (Revelation 18:7).
    • The Woman was Rich and Mourned when Judged (Revelation 18:10, 16-19).
    • The Woman merchandised the Souls of Men (Revelation 18:13).
    • The Woman is pronounced Desolate (Revelation 18:19).
    • The Woman's sound of Joy is taken away (Revelation 18:22).
    • The Woman's position of Creativity is taken away (Revelation 18:22).
    • The Woman's authority as someone equipped to Judge is removed (Revelation 18:22).
    • The Woman's Light-Bearing ability is snuffed out (Revelation 18:23).
    • The Woman's Bridegroom has Divorced Her (Revelation 18:23).
    • The Woman's Engagement/Marriage has been annulled/abrogated (Rev 18:23).
    • The Woman is called "This/That Great City" (Revelation 11:8, 14:8, 16:19, 17:18, 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21, 21:10).






The Woman = Jerusalem




The most compelling evidence that the woman is Jerusalem is that scripture says it's where Jesus was crucified! (Revelation 11:8). Compare Jerusalem before her Judgment: (Revelation 11:8) and after Her Judgment (Revelation 21:10).

You do know that Queen Berneice and Titus were having and affair. She was the granddaughter of Herod.[/QUOTE

The Herodians weren´t Jews.

Lets look at your verses;

What does Rev. 11:8 say ? It must be exegeted within the context of the entire chapter. The chapter is about the two witnesses. They are tremendous evangelists and preachers. The beast, rises from itś pit to attack them, and it kills them, to be resurrected later. Here is the point, many believe these witnesses are Messianic Jews, Christians. The beast isn´t a people, it is a being, it is called a beast because it acts like one.

And you left out a very critical part. 90 % of the people praise God, become Christians.

God promised Israel, the people, the Jews, that they would be his special people forever. This wasn´t conditional. In the end Israel will be saved.

Israel cannot be the whore of Babylon, because she never repents, she never becomes good after being evil, God never saves her.



The resurrected two witnesses, then do a massive work for God, saving many souls.

Revelation is not linear, it doesn´to start at the beginning and go through to the end. Instead, it is organized by subject, and thus seems to jump around, forward in time, then back in time.

Your other verses;

Revelation 14: 20 is about the final battle of Armegeddon, which takes place in Israel, it is the final battle between good and evil, it isn´t about the Jews, it is about all peoples, the saved and the lost. Note the blood is outside of the city, not inside, those in the city are perfectly safe, it is their refuge, not the whore of Babylon.

Nowhere is Jerusalem called the whore of Babylon, nowhere.

There is another great city, Babylon. it spiritually represents evil and is inhabited by all lost souls. The literal Babylon was where Israel was led into captivity, so it was, and is metaphorically an evil place. All true Christians are citizens of the kingdom of God, yet it won´t exist literally till the end of time, after the final judgement and the final battle.

I think you began on a false premise.

Lets look at Rev, 11;8 again. I have checked this in a few of the 9 different translations I have and they are consistent.

Babylon, Egypt, and where the Crucifixion took place are spiritual not literal, that is exactly what the text says, ´..........the great city which SPIRITUALLY is called Sodom and Egypt, and where our Lord was crucified¨

What was the spiritual condition of these places ? evil.

Further, the city cannot be Jerusalem, because Christ was not crucified in Jerusalem, he was crucified outside the city.

So, these represent spiritually corrupt and evil places, as does Babylon when written of in the Bible.

If it was literal Jerusalem, why not just say so, the city of Jerusalem is mentioned by name elsewhere, why not just say, as you have extrapolated, that Babylon is Jerusalem ?

Because it isn´t
 

sooda

Veteran Member

The army of Titus was made up of natives of the countries surrounding Israel .. from Syria and the Levant, Persia.. They fought with the Romans and that's well-documented.

Christians just aren't required to be uneducated.

Ezekiel 16 is very compelling evidence that Jerusalem is the whore. Here are some excerpts:



Ezekiel 16:1-2, "And there is a word of Jehovah unto me, saying, `Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, and thou hast said:"
Ezekiel 16:7-8, "...And comest in with an excellent adornment, Breasts have been formed, and thy hair hath grown -- And thou, naked and bare! And I pass over by thee, and I see thee, And lo, thy time is a time of loves,"

Ezekiel 16:15-18, "And thou dost trust in thy beauty, And goest a-whoring because of thy renown, And dost pour out thy whoredoms On every passer by -- to him it is. And thou dost take of thy garments, And dost make to thee spotted high-places, And dost go a-whoring upon them, They are not coming in -- nor shall it be! And thou dost take thy beauteous vessels Of My gold and My silver that I gave to thee, And dost make to thee images of a male, And dost go a-whoring with them, And dost take the garments of thy embroidery, And thou dost cover them, And My oil and My perfume thou hast set before them."

Ezekiel 16:20, "And thou dost take thy sons and thy daughters Whom thou hast born to Me, And dost sacrifice them to them for food. Is it a little thing because of thy whoredoms,"

Ezekiel 16:22, "And with all thine abominations and thy whoredoms,..."

Ezekiel 16:25-26, "At every head of the way thou hast built thy high place, And thou dost make thy beauty abominable, And dost open wide thy feet to every passer by, And dost multiply thy whoredoms, And dost go a-whoring unto sons of Egypt, Thy neighbours -- great of appetite! And thou dost multiply thy whoredoms, To provoke Me to anger."

(There's more if you are unfamiliar with Ezekiel)
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Metis, what on earth did you teach when you imparted knowledge to your 'theology' students? This demonstrates once again that you did not teach scripture but only church inspired doctrine. How could I possibly know that the majority of Jews would not be saved? I read scripture and I understand Israel's role in the outworking of Jehovah's purpose. Do you?

Are you familiar with Jesus' illustrations at all? Read Matthew 22:1-14 and ask who were the ones originally "invited" to the marriage feast of the King's son? What did the King do to those who refused to attend? What did he think of their excuses?
Who is the King in this illustration and who is his son? What is the "marriage"? Who is the bride?

Read another illustration in Matthew 21:33-41 and ask who Jesus is talking about?What was the outcome for them?

Isaiah prophesied that only a "remnant" of fleshly Israel would be saved.....which was quoted by the apostle Paul in Romans 9:27-29...

"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute his sentence upon the earth with rigor and dispatch.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us children,
we would have fared like Sodom and been made like Gomor′rah.” (NRSVCE)


All through their history, Israel proved themselves unworthy of their choosing, but God kept them in existence until his purpose in connection with them, was fulfilled. By rejecting Jesus as the promised Messiah, they put the seal on their own fate. What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah and why was it used in Isaiah's example?

If only a "remnant" was to be saved....that means that the majority were not. This is what scripture says as opposed to the cherry picking done by the churches.

When Jesus said...."O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” (NRSVCE)

They have never, as a nation, 'blessed the one who came in the name of Yahweh'. Individuals (a remnant) who accepted Jesus as the Christ were included in a new nation, under a new covenant. Paul called them "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) which was not the fleshly nation but the spiritual nation who became disciples of God's son. It included that remnant of faithful Jews and then the Gentiles who made up the 'Kingdom of priests' that Israel should have filled. People of all nations, including Jews have the same choices today, as everyone else. (Acts 10:34-35)

Please metis, do your homework before you again betray your lack of scriptural knowledge. Read your Bible man! There is obviously so much that you have never seen or been taught. Its so important to know these things because it alters our whole perception of the big picture.....our own choices depend on this knowledge. Its a life or death matter as I see it. Can you understand that? You think that all I am trying to do here is be RIGHT? (*sigh*) I actually care about the truth and I know you do too, so put down the boxing gloves and listen......evaluate the information without the defensive attitude and you will see that we are really on the same side. :(
The majority of humans will be lost, the majority of gentiles will be lost. the majority of Jews may be lost.
This isn´t our call.

I am quite familiar with the eschatology of your organization, at least for today. Lets agree to disagree on this issue.

God promised to Israel that they would be His special people, forever.

That promise hasn´t changed, and for each disaster that occurred throughout the history of Judaism, a remnant remained.

Think about it, while great empires and peoples no longer exist, the Jews always a tiny number of people, a remnant has always has remained.

The Egyptians could not destroy them, nor Babylon, nor Rome, nor Hitler.

A tiny group of Jews defeated the Arab armies bent on destroying them, not once, but three times. Since 1948 Their God promised homeland is theirs.

I believe Revelation teaches that Messianic Jews, Christians, will arise with the last great call to come out of Babylon, for all, but especially for the Jews.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
The army of Titus was made up of natives of the countries surrounding Israel .. from Syria and the Levant, Persia.. They fought with the Romans and that's well-documented.

Christians just aren't required to be uneducated.

Ezekiel 16 is very compelling evidence that Jerusalem is the whore. Here are some excerpts:



Ezekiel 16:1-2, "And there is a word of Jehovah unto me, saying, `Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, and thou hast said:"
Ezekiel 16:7-8, "...And comest in with an excellent adornment, Breasts have been formed, and thy hair hath grown -- And thou, naked and bare! And I pass over by thee, and I see thee, And lo, thy time is a time of loves,"

Ezekiel 16:15-18, "And thou dost trust in thy beauty, And goest a-whoring because of thy renown, And dost pour out thy whoredoms On every passer by -- to him it is. And thou dost take of thy garments, And dost make to thee spotted high-places, And dost go a-whoring upon them, They are not coming in -- nor shall it be! And thou dost take thy beauteous vessels Of My gold and My silver that I gave to thee, And dost make to thee images of a male, And dost go a-whoring with them, And dost take the garments of thy embroidery, And thou dost cover them, And My oil and My perfume thou hast set before them."

Ezekiel 16:20, "And thou dost take thy sons and thy daughters Whom thou hast born to Me, And dost sacrifice them to them for food. Is it a little thing because of thy whoredoms,"

Ezekiel 16:22, "And with all thine abominations and thy whoredoms,..."

Ezekiel 16:25-26, "At every head of the way thou hast built thy high place, And thou dost make thy beauty abominable, And dost open wide thy feet to every passer by, And dost multiply thy whoredoms, And dost go a-whoring unto sons of Egypt, Thy neighbours -- great of appetite! And thou dost multiply thy whoredoms, To provoke Me to anger."

(There's more if you are unfamiliar with Ezekiel)
These are Ezekielś direct testimony to the people in his time.

He is using metaphor to heavily chastise the people in that place and in that time.

There is no indication that this chastisement is in any way related to the end time prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.

I an familiar with Ezekiel.

With respect, you have assumed something, and are cherry picking verses out of context to support your assumption.

Did you know that Joseph smoked ? The Bible says he lit off a camel.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
These are Ezekielś direct testimony to the people in his time.

He is using metaphor to heavily chastise the people in that place and in that time.

There is no indication that this chastisement is in any way related to the end time prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.

I an familiar with Ezekiel.

With respect, you have assumed something, and are cherry picking verses out of context to support your assumption.

Did you know that Joseph smoked ? The Bible says he lit off a camel.

Smoked? There were few camels in Palestine.. The camel saddle hadn't been invented .. Abraham was a donkey caravan.

I can't believe you taught Sunday school. What denomination are you?

Sadly, its just so unusual for preachers to have much education. Most don't.. or they attended some bible college akin to the Moody Institute or the Dallas Theological Seminary. God knows those fools have done some fine damage.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Smoked? There were few camels in Palestine.. The camel saddle hadn't been invented .. Abraham was a donkey caravan.

I can't believe you taught Sunday school. What denomination are you?

Sadly, its just so unusual for preachers to have much education. Most don't.. or they attended some bible college akin to the Moody Institute or the Dallas Theological Seminary. God knows those fools have done some fine damage.
Personal attacks are the refuge of those who cannot win an argument with facts.

This conversation has ended.

BTW, in my denomination, preachers must have an M. Div. Look it up if you don´t know what it means.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Personal attacks are the refuge of those who cannot win an argument with facts.

This conversation has ended.

BTW, in my denomination, preachers must have an M. Div. Look it up if you don´t know what it means.
Ummmmm.......... Master of Divinity?

Thing is, I'd bet that any JW Elder could engage you in a really interesting and strong discussion about any book in the bible, and all they have to show is their time and life in their faith.

It's good to study and gain qualifications, but the knowledge is all that matters, not the documents. True?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Personal attacks are the refuge of those who cannot win an argument with facts.

This conversation has ended.

BTW, in my denomination, preachers must have an M. Div. Look it up if you don´t know what it means.

You can get a Masters in Divinity on line or you can get it from a top school... or god forbid, you could get it from the Dallas Theological Seminary.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Lovely. If I had any doubts about your anti-Semitism, this clinched it.

Has NOTHING to do with anti-Semitism.. Read your Torah.

The language is hyperbolic but consistent.

Several Old Testament prophets referred to Jerusalem as being a spiritual harlot and a mother of such harlotry (Book of Isaiah 1:21; Book of Jeremiah 2:20; Jeremiah 3:1–11; Book of Ezekiel 16:1–43; Ezekiel 23,
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I've been reading up.......
Don't you mean Anti-Zionism?
I read that many Jews are anti-Zionist.....?
There are almost no Jews that are anti-Zionist, and those who are anti-Zionist are almost all super ultra orthodox -- they believe only the messiah can create the state of Israel. My own opinion here--they are a bunch of sadly misled people and they don't speak for the overwhelming majority of us.


I know a lot of Jews, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Secular, and all the Jews I know are Zionists. Zionism simply means we believe in the right of Israel to exist as a homeland for the Jews.

Let's look at this rationally.

PROBLEM: Jews have historically been persecuted and killed.

It hasn't been just one group. Sure Christians came at us the hardest and most persistently. But there have certainly been others, such as the communists, fascists, etc. Right now our greatest danger comes from the political left and Asian Islam.

Different theories have been proposed as to why Jews have been persecuted. Proposed and disproven.j

For example, in some places Jews were not allowed any other trade than money lending and so went into banking -- there we became resented for doing well with money. But other places where we had other trades and remained poor, we were resented for being dirty and poor.

Or some said that we were resented because we isolated ourselves and didn't try to fit in. So the whole Reform movement started and the Jews of Germany integrated and thought of themselves as Germans who even celebrated Christmas. Yet it didn't stop Hitler for killing

Rich, poor, we die. Struggling, successful, we die. Apart, assimilated, we die.

It seems like all the options for living in the land of others are used up. Except for two.

Stop being Jews. Commit cultural genocide by pretending we are not Jews, not transmitting any knowledge onto our children, so that our descendants will never know their heritage. Yes, I use the word genocide, because although no dying involved, this most assuredly would destroy the Jewish people as much as Hitler.

LEAVE. Form a homeland for the Jews, one based on our national history (IOW not Scotland or New Guinea or Siberia) and go there. Even if other nations put pressure on us, there is something to be said for it being OUR nation, and defending our home turf, rather than languishing in someone else's back yard. This is the Zionist option.

So that's it. Those are the only three options.
1. continue living in the lands of non-Jews and being persecuted there.
2. commit cultural genocide, meaning that the Jewish people will cease to exist
3. Create a homeland for the Jews and go there--Zionism.

When you look at it that way, there is only one sensible option. Only one. Well, I should say there is only one unless you WANT the Jews gone.

And that's why anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. Because the other two options literally hurt the Jewish people, even threaten our very survival.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Has NOTHING to do with anti-Semitism.. Read your Torah.

The language is hyperbolic but consistent.

Several Old Testament prophets referred to Jerusalem as being a spiritual harlot and a mother of such harlotry (Book of Isaiah 1:21; Book of Jeremiah 2:20; Jeremiah 3:1–11; Book of Ezekiel 16:1–43; Ezekiel 23,
That is a whole other animal than the Whore of Babylon in Revelation. They are not related at all.

Still waiting for you to share your denomination.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The majority of humans will be lost, the majority of gentiles will be lost. the majority of Jews may be lost.
This isn´t our call.

I am aware of that. But I also believe that a great many who identify as Christians will be lost as well. Jesus' stinging rejection of the "many" on judgment day is....."I never knew you, get away from me you workers of lawlessness!" (Matthew 7:21-23) These are the ones who acknowledge him as their "Lord" and pleadingly relate all the things that they did 'in his name'. They are obviously fooling themselves. :(

I am quite familiar with the eschatology of your organization, at least for today. Lets agree to disagree on this issue.

God promised to Israel that they would be His special people, forever.

That promise hasn´t changed, and for each disaster that occurred throughout the history of Judaism, a remnant remained.

I don't believe that his promise to Abraham had its total fulfillment with fleshly Israel. Here's why.....

When the Pharisees came to witness John's baptism, they received a stinging rebuke from him.
Matthew 3:7-10 says......"When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

It doesn't sound as if being born as a son of Abraham is the prime thing from God's perspective. If God can raise up children for Abraham from the stones, then why would he put up with a wayward nation who continually broke their covenant with him? He said that the axe was poised to cut them down. No good fruit was forthcoming.

Jesus too spoke of Israel being 'abandoned' by God because of their refusal to be corrected by his prophets.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!” (Matthew 23:37-39)

In the 2,000 years since Jesus spoke those words, the Jewish nation has never "blessed the one who came in Jehovah's name". They have never repented of their part in Jesus' death.

Then we have James's statement in Acts 15:14...."Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name."

Paul identified these ones as "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16)....not speaking about Jews but of Gentile Christians too. These are 'spiritual' Israel. (Romans 2:28-29) God abandoned fleshly Israel when they murdered the last one sent to correct them, as Jesus said they had done too many times before.

Think about it, while great empires and peoples no longer exist, the Jews always a tiny number of people, a remnant has always has remained.

Yes, and a remnant responded to Jesus. The foundation members of Christianity were all Jews. They were given first opportunity to take up positions as rulers in God's Kingdom, but when the nation failed to produce the numbers, Gentiles were chosen to complete the arrangement.

The Egyptians could not destroy them, nor Babylon, nor Rome, nor Hitler.

A tiny group of Jews defeated the Arab armies bent on destroying them, not once, but three times. Since 1948 Their God promised homeland is theirs.

After God abandoned Judaism in the first century, (the reason why a third temple has never been built) despite being repatriated to their homeland in the middle of last century, they have never enjoyed a peaceful existence there. Jerusalem is a hotbed of religious disputes. They have not experienced God's blessing or his protection. They are spillers of blood just like all the rest. They have allied themselves with secular nations just as their forefathers did because they cannot count on their God to support them.

Christianity is no longer about a geographical location...it is a global family united by their faith in the God of Jesus.

I believe Revelation teaches that Messianic Jews, Christians, will arise with the last great call to come out of Babylon, for all, but especially for the Jews.

The tribes of Israel spoken about in Revelation are 'spiritual' Israel...those who accepted Jesus as the Christ and abandoned that corrupt religious system to drown in their own prideful errors.

Individuals of all nations can come to Christ, including Jews (Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35) ....but as a nation, the Jews lost their place because they could never remain faithful to their God.

I believe that John the Baptist's words apply today as they did back in the first century....

"Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

They never produced the fruits....:( Many in Christendom don't either.
 
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