LDS Church Makes 'Surprise' Change on LGBT Issues

[idea]

He does not demand that prophets be perfect, or perfect of understanding. God is perfect. We are not.

I agree - prophets are NOT perfect, which means we are NOT expected to follow them in every little thing.

Emma was perfectly justified in complaining about the brethren spitting on the floor...

Those who opposed the church's policies of excluding innocent children were perfectly justified in speaking up against harmful cultural intolerance.

Those who spoke out against one-on-one interviews leading to kids being molested - again - they were and are perfectly justified in pointing out legitimate concerns that have led to so much pain and heartache.

It very much confuses me how some members can in one breath admit "prophets are not perfect" and in the very next breath say "prophets are led by God, I will follow the prophet no matter what they do or say".

Would you follow Judas? Judas was called by God - how about Jonah?

cute little primary song - "follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet he knows the way... with a verse about Jonah in there too - Jonah was a prophet, tried to run away, .... isn't Jonah a clear example of NOT following the prophet???

It honestly scares me when people refuse to think and act for themselves. It is unhealthy.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Mormon church now allowing children of LGBT parents to be baptized


So - when religious organizations change their policies - do you forgive their past mistakes?

View attachment 28009

I am curious to see how both Mormons, and non-Mormons view the change.

I think the Mormon church includes a lot of loving, tolerant persons, therefore, the change.

 

[dianaiad]

I agree - prophets are NOT perfect, which means we are NOT expected to follow them in every little thing.

Emma was perfectly justified in complaining about the brethren spitting on the floor...

Those who opposed the church's policies of excluding innocent children were perfectly justified in speaking up against harmful cultural intolerance.

Those who spoke out against one-on-one interviews leading to kids being molested - again - they were and are perfectly justified in pointing out legitimate concerns that have led to so much pain and heartache.

It very much confuses me how some members can in one breath admit "prophets are not perfect" and in the very next breath say "prophets are led by God, I will follow the prophet no matter what they do or say".

Would you follow Judas? Judas was called by God - how about Jonah?

cute little primary song - "follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet he knows the way... with a verse about Jonah in there too - Jonah was a prophet, tried to run away, .... isn't Jonah a clear example of NOT following the prophet???

er...you do remember what happened to him, yes? I will agree that he may be my favorite biblical prophet, mind you. I empathize with his stubborn intransigence a little too much.

It honestly scares me when people refuse to think and act for themselves. It is unhealthy.

Prophets are not perfect.
Policies are not scripture.
WE are expected...commanded, even...(remember "Moroni's Promise" Moroni 10:3-5) to confirm such things through personal study, thought and prayer, with a reasonable expectation of receiving a personal answer to that prayer.

I had a very personal illustration of this just before I left for my mission. I was sitting in the BYU cafeteria when young man I had met (but seldom spoken to) came up to me and told me that he had received a revelation: I was to deny my mission call, marry him, support him through school and 'raise a righteous generation to the Lord."

I told him "That's nice, but God forgot to tell ME."

.............and I served my mission, married a wonderful man, and raised five exceptional (OK, I'm biased and I admit it) children.

I have kept that particular lesson to heart ever since, and have been very careful to make sure that "God [tells] me" about stuff like this before I do more than figure "well, let's see where this policy goes..."

We ARE entitled to personal revelation about this stuff. Not to impose our views on others, mind you; few of us are prophets. However, for our own beliefs? Absolutely.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Mormon church now allowing children of LGBT parents to be baptized


So - when religious organizations change their policies - do you forgive their past mistakes?

View attachment 28009

I am curious to see how both Mormons, and non-Mormons view the change.

I certainly don't forgive their current mistakes while they're still making them:

"While we still consider such a marriage to be a serious transgression, it will not be treated as apostasy for purposes of Church discipline," the church's leaders, known as the First Presidency, said in the statement. "Instead, the immoral conduct in heterosexual or homosexual relationships will be treated in the same way."

It's a step towards the positive, but it falls far short of being decent or moral. It also seems to me to be more about sales than it is about a change of heart: if they exclude the kids of LGBTQ people while those kids are in their formative years, it's going to be harder to recruit them into the Church as adults.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think the Mormon church includes a lot of loving, tolerant persons, therefore, the change.

When one person labels another with terms like "immoral" and "serious transgression," they aren't being tolerant.

 

[LuisDantas]

Mormon church now allowing children of LGBT parents to be baptized


So - when religious organizations change their policies - do you forgive their past mistakes?

View attachment 28009

I am curious to see how both Mormons, and non-Mormons view the change.

Of course I approve of the change.

It is always a good thing when people or groups learn better and let go of past mistakes.

That said, @9-10ths_Penguin makes good points.

 

[Shad]

Adapting to the times and culture.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I just like the fact that things like this are newsworthy enough to be seen by a fair number of people. The more people know and realize that these sorts of "revealed" beliefs are still behind the times, and still vowing to stay behind the times in many ways, the less I think the coming generations of greater tolerance are going to care about the opinions of these religious groups. And the more people who care less about religious groups' religious opinions, in my estimation, the better.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

God doesn't change, but His children do.

And yet, if something is evil in God's eyes, then if God doesn't change, it remains evil. Thus, we can be assured that either the "revelation of evil" or the "revelation of not-evil" is false -- and sadly, there is absolutely no way to find out which.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Obviously, the LDS was hemorrhaging money as well as followers.

Thus, the change to keep money flowing into their tax-free treasury, and to quit losing followers.

I note that the adults were not allowed-- just the kiddos. So the bigotry remains unchecked.

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

You forgive, but never forget the past.

 

[Katzpur]

Obviously, the LDS was hemorrhaging money as well as followers.

Thus, the change to keep money flowing into their tax-free treasury, and to quit losing followers.

I note that the adults were not allowed-- just the kiddos. So the bigotry remains unchecked.

You're wrong about that. The changes also reversed the policy of excommunicating those individuals who are in same-sex marriages.

 

[robocop (actually)]

And yet, if something is evil in God's eyes, then if God doesn't change, it remains evil. Thus, we can be assured that either the "revelation of evil" or the "revelation of not-evil" is false -- and sadly, there is absolutely no way to find out which.

Homosexual acts in marriage are still considered transgression, just not a condition for apostasy. They still go through the disciplinary council... both homosexual acts and heterosexual acts like adultery. This was done to be merciful.

 

[idea]

er...you do remember what happened to him, yes? I will agree that he may be my favorite biblical prophet, mind you. I empathize with his stubborn intransigence a little too much.



Prophets are not perfect.
Policies are not scripture.
WE are expected...commanded, even...(remember "Moroni's Promise" Moroni 10:3-5) to confirm such things through personal study, thought and prayer, with a reasonable expectation of receiving a personal answer to that prayer.

I had a very personal illustration of this just before I left for my mission. I was sitting in the BYU cafeteria when young man I had met (but seldom spoken to) came up to me and told me that he had received a revelation: I was to deny my mission call, marry him, support him through school and 'raise a righteous generation to the Lord."

I told him "That's nice, but God forgot to tell ME."

.............and I served my mission, married a wonderful man, and raised five exceptional (OK, I'm biased and I admit it) children.

I have kept that particular lesson to heart ever since, and have been very careful to make sure that "God [tells] me" about stuff like this before I do more than figure "well, let's see where this policy goes..."

We ARE entitled to personal revelation about this stuff. Not to impose our views on others, mind you; few of us are prophets. However, for our own beliefs? Absolutely.

I very much agree - everyone needs to confirm everything through personal study and prayer. Some random guy in the cafeteria, vs. disagreeing with the prophet and apostles though - have you ever been daring enough to disagree with the prophet and apostles?

Talking with my stake president - he shared that he served a mission during the priesthood ban on the blacks, that it broke his heart. I asked "so what did you do? when you disagreed with the policy"? He did not do anything - he just stayed silent, and was happy when the ban was lifted. I told him I did not think "silence" was the correct response to that - I believe it is perfectly fine to disagree with, and communicate concerns about, policies that are harmful and destructive.

 

[idea]

I think the Mormon church includes a lot of loving, tolerant persons, therefore, the change.

Everyone thinks they are loving and tolerant.... Most do not realize the amount of pain they are causing in others.

 

[columbus]

I think the Mormon church includes a lot of loving, tolerant persons, therefore, the change.

Moreso than most Christian denominations.
They are also very family oriented.
And they have a simple method for changing fundamental church teachings.

So, I fully expect the LDS to be the first large Christian denomination to recognize marriage amongst people who don't fit the usual binary gender code. Because that's how to support families in the future. And that's what LDS is about.

Sorry @Prestor John

Go @Katzpur!

Tom

 

[LuisDantas]

And yet, if something is evil in God's eyes, then if God doesn't change, it remains evil. Thus, we can be assured that either the "revelation of evil" or the "revelation of not-evil" is false -- and sadly, there is absolutely no way to find out which.

No _theological_ way, perhaps... that may well be a problem for those with a deontological perspective.

Myself, I think that a necessary part of being religious is deciding such things and accepting the consequences, including the need to revise one's judgement.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You're wrong about that. The changes also reversed the policy of excommunicating those individuals who are in same-sex marriages.

Are the same sex partners allowed to marry? Is their marriage recognized?

If not-- my comment remains: Bigotry continues unabated.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Homosexual acts in marriage are still considered transgression, just not a condition for apostasy. They still go through the disciplinary council... both homosexual acts and heterosexual acts like adultery. This was done to be merciful.

"merciful"..... you used that word, but I don't think it means what you just said.

It's evil to portray consenting adults in a loving relationship as "transgression".

The bigotry of the LDS remains unckecked, just like always. Only now-- they will try to "teach" impressionable kids that their parents are Evil, for being who they are-- just as god intended them to be....!

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I very much agree - everyone needs to confirm everything through personal study and prayer. Some random guy in the cafeteria, vs. disagreeing with the prophet and apostles though - have you ever been daring enough to disagree with the prophet and apostles?

Talking with my stake president - he shared that he served a mission during the priesthood ban on the blacks, that it broke his heart. I asked "so what did you do? when you disagreed with the policy"? He did not do anything - he just stayed silent, and was happy when the ban was lifted. I told him I did not think "silence" was the correct response to that - I believe it is perfectly fine to disagree with, and communicate concerns about, policies that are harmful and destructive.

Indeed: Silence is the same as Consent, considering all the harm it causes.

Even if someone is roiling with sadness? By remaining silent, consent is assumed by the leadership.

Only when people speak out against Bigotry And Atrocity, are the leaders forced to change their evil ways.