The Qur'an: Intentions vs. Effects

[icehorse]

And how many Muslims have you known over the past 70 years?

Look at the DETAILS of your poll.

I've known a handful of Muslims personally. But again, we can learn only so much from personal anecdotes.

What aspects of the poll do you think I should look at more closely?

Also, I want to draw your attention to @paarsurrey 's comment just a few posts ago. Sometimes critics of Islam tell us we can't place too much meaning on the Quran, and then sometimes we hear that we should learn from the Quran. There are those of us here who have studied Islam independent of the Quran AND who have also studied the Quran.

 

[dybmh]

@icehorse,

Please, I really do want to understand. Here's where I'm stuck:

Ideas should stand or fall on their own merit

In your opinion, What are the elements that contribute to ideas having merit?

This is why I am stuck on this comment:

I think there is common ground between your point of view and the Qur'an. And that common ground is fairness.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but fairness is something that you feel is valuable? Fairness has merit? Merit that stands on its own?

I think that fairness is also a value in the Qur'an, but I don't know if you will believe me or value my evidence when I bring it.

This is why I am asking about the elements that you feel contribute to an idea having merit that can stand on its own.

Knowing this, I will attempt to proceed to bring evidence that shows that the Qur'an values fairness possibly above all other things. (Technically I will attempt to show that unfairness is the lowest of the low.)

But my point is this. Somehow, you and I have veered off course. I truly value this conversation that we are having, and at the very least I would like to get your feedback on what I feel is evidence showing that there is common ground between your point of view and the Qur'an.

But I cannot do that without some clues as to the elements that will make my evidence worthy of merit to you.

Will you please help me with this?

What do you feel are the elements that contribute towards an idea that has merit which can stand on its own?

 

[icehorse]

What do you feel are the elements that contribute towards an idea that has merit which can stand on its own?

I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

I think that in discussions like this, the clearest way to proceed is to start by describing our core values. In regards to religions, I've found that my core values of supporting human rights often puts me at odds with religious scripture and religious beliefs. All I can do - really - is determine whether an idea is consistent with my values. As a simple example, we probably both believe that life has great value, so we'd probably both believe that murder is wrong.

 

[dybmh]

I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

I think that in discussions like this, the clearest way to proceed is to start by describing our core values. In regards to religions, I've found that my core values of supporting human rights often puts me at odds with religious scripture and religious beliefs. All I can do - really - is determine whether an idea is consistent with my values. As a simple example, we probably both believe that life has great value, so we'd probably both believe that murder is wrong.

OK. Thank you. I really appreciate what you are saying, and I appreciate the opportunity for learning.

yes. I absolutely agree with you, 100%, life has great value and murder is wrong.

 

[LuisDantas]

I suggest to learn about Islam from Quran, not from Muslims, please.
It is just a suggestion.
Regards

That I specifically reject, sorry, @paarsurrey

If a scripture can't inspire me directly (which the Qur'an is indeed incapable of, by design even, since it is so theochauvinistic) and it can't show its worth by way of its adherents, then it can't really be worth a lot of attention.

 

[icehorse]

OK. Thank you. I really appreciate what you are saying, and I appreciate the opportunity for learning.

yes. I absolutely agree with you, 100%, life has great value and murder is wrong.

Cool. So to take the discussion further, misogyny, homophobia, and anti-semitism are directly in opposition to modern human rights. The idea that blasphemy and apostasy are crimes is in direct opposition to human rights. The idea that theocratic rule is a good idea - while not directly in conflict with human rights - is usually associated with the ideas listed above.

All of these ideas are promoted in the Quran, and to be fair some of these bad ideas are also promoted in other religions as well.

So, if you place a high value on modern human rights (as I do), then it's hard to think kindly of Islam.

 

[paarsurrey]

That I specifically reject, sorry, @paarsurrey

If a scripture can't inspire me directly (which the Qur'an is indeed incapable of, by design even, since it is so theochauvinistic) and it can't show its worth by way of its adherents, then it can't really be worth a lot of attention.

I don't agree with one's views. But it was just a suggestion, please.
Regards

 

[dybmh]

it can't show its worth by way of its adherents

Bingo! I think this is where individuals can make the biggest difference. It's a long slow slog. But if those of us who believe in One God can hold ourselves and each other to a higher standard then that is a peaceful way to honor the one whom we call Most Holy.

And, in the process, we who believe in One God are improving ourselves.

It's a win-win.

How do I propose to do this.

For myself, right now, it is all about learning and making friends.

edit: OK, OK... it's also about discouraging dominant ideology...

 

[Firemorphic]

So, if you place a high value on modern human rights (as I do), then it's hard to think kindly of Islam.

Man you've got your cowardly tail so far in between your legs.

Still waiting for you to reply to this which you're conveniently ignoring: Supporting Muslims as members of our communities

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't agree with one's views. But it was just a suggestion, please.
Regards

Unfortunately, that is sort of major far as I am concerned.

 

[LuisDantas]

Man you've got your cowardly tail so far in between your legs.

What do you mean here?

 

[LuisDantas]

Bingo! I think this is where individuals can make the biggest difference. It's a long slow slog. But if those of us who believe in One God can hold ourselves and each other to a higher standard then that is a peaceful way to honor the one whom we call Most Holy.

Probably.

I would however posit that the very fact that people aren't always monotheistic is strong indication that monotheism isn't really very important.

It certainly hasn't shown in my experience to be particularly helpful in attaining that honorable goal that you present.

Therefore, I can't in good faith encourage you to pursue that exact path. But if you can pull it off, there is merit in the results, although not necessarily in the means.

 

[dybmh]

Cool. So to take the discussion further, misogyny, homophobia, and anti-semitism are directly in opposition to modern human rights. The idea that blasphemy and apostasy are crimes is in direct opposition to human rights. The idea that theocratic rule is a good idea - while not directly in conflict with human rights - is usually associated with the ideas listed above.

All of these ideas are promoted in the Quran, and to be fair some of these bad ideas are also promoted in other religions as well.

So, if you place a high value on modern human rights (as I do), then it's hard to think kindly of Islam.

Apologies, I am in a bad habit of reading the replies out of order.

I will reply to this tomorrow. You bring up a good point.

 

[dybmh]

Oh dear... @Firemorphic , I think we were typing simultaneously...

if those of us who believe in One God can hold ourselves and each other to a higher standard then that is a peaceful way to honor the one whom we call Most Holy.

and also....

How do I propose to do this.

For myself, right now, it is all about learning and making friends.

and also...

Qur'an 2:193

"... But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression ... "

 

[dybmh]

@icehorse ,

I hope you will understand my dear friend, Firemorphic's strong emotions.

I hope you remember in a previous thread you accused him of "sea-lioning" aka performing like a circus animal.

And. I think it's important to point out that Firemorphic knows me better than anyone one else on RF, and he has witnessed me lose my temper to the point of approaching insanity.

Firemorphic's friendship helped bring me back from a very dark place in my life.

And because I have lost my temper, and I have witnessed plenty of others lose their temper, I believe everyone loses their temper at some point.

IceHorse, please, I hope that in the name of keeping the peace, you will let bygones be bygones, accept that you have said some rude things to Firemorphic equal to what he said to you in this thread.

Please, let's all forget about fairness, forget about who threw the first stone. I propose we just wake up tomorrow and start new.

@LuisDantas, I have been learning about Bill Warner.
@icehorse, I will be thinking about the important points you raised earlier this evening.
@Firemorphic, I will be thinking about our friendship, appreciating your spirit and good character, and being grateful that you found me when you did.

 

[icehorse]

Man you've got your cowardly tail so far in between your legs.

Still waiting for you to reply to this which you're conveniently ignoring: Supporting Muslims as members of our communities

I read that post of yours several times, and couldn't understand it. Can you restate it please?

 

[icehorse]

I hope you remember in a previous thread you accused him of "sea-lioning" aka performing like a circus animal.

Sea-lioning is a form of trolling on the internet, I was not comparing him to a circus animal. And don't worry, I'm happy to start fresh with each new conversation

 

[icehorse]

I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

I think that in discussions like this, the clearest way to proceed is to start by describing our core values. In regards to religions, I've found that my core values of supporting human rights often puts me at odds with religious scripture and religious beliefs. All I can do - really - is determine whether an idea is consistent with my values. As a simple example, we probably both believe that life has great value, so we'd probably both believe that murder is wrong.

@Firemorphic - dude, i understand the urge to use the "funny" frubal to indicate your displeasure with a post, but it's against the forum rules to do that. Instead, why don't you try to clearly explain your disagreements with my ideas, and try to avoid slurring me as a person. thanks.

 

[Niblo]

.........….People who believe that Jesus was raised from the dead take offense specifically because the Qur'an is explicitly claiming Jesus' resurrection was intentional deception by Allah.

As-Salāmu ‘alaykum 'ahki,

Please excuse the intervention; but I’m a little puzzled by this statement. Please could you quote your source.

Many thanks.

May Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) reward you for your patience!

 

[dybmh]

As-Salāmu ‘alaykum 'ahki,

Please excuse the intervention; but I’m a little puzzled by this statement. Please could you quote your source.

Many thanks.

May Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) reward you for your patience!

Hello My Friend,

--Big Sigh--

I am reviewing my research and I have to admit I was hasty and careless in my answer to @ManSinha. Thank you for pointing it out.

I see now that I was wrong to say that "the Qur'an is explicitly claiming Jesus' resurrection was intentional deception by Allah."

The Qur'an does not say this explicitly. On review of my sources, I "connected the dots" in error. It appears there is an opinion among some that the Resurrection was a deception my Allah. But I have no idea if this is a fringe minority opinion or if it is mainstream. But what is most important in this thread, is that I posted inaccurate information about the Qur'an. And I am grateful that you have pointed this out.

I was wrong. And I am sorry.

The statement was a conclusion, an assumption, an error on my part. It's not something I can quote from anyone or anywhere. And I am embarrassed.

Below I will detail where I went wrong.

It starts with the quote from Wikipedia below:

"Unlike the Christian view of the death of Jesus, most Muslims believe he was raised to Heaven without being put on the cross and God created a resemblance to appear exactly like Jesus who was crucified instead of Jesus."

hyperlink >>> Wikipedia - Islamic views on Jesus' death

As I am rereading the article, and reviewing my process, I clearly see that I made a large leap in assuming that the quote from Wikipedia above was based on an explicit quote from the Qur'an.

Continuing my explanation: After reading the Wikipedia, I read 5 articles on websites ( essentially they are non-authoritative blog posts ) from websites that are both critical to the Qur'an and friendly to the Qur'an. I read articles from 3 websites which are critical of the Qur'an and articles from 2 websites that are friendly to the Qur'an.

Where all 5 articles agree is that the criticism of the Qur'an verses describing Allah as a "Makr" all seem to be put forward by Christians and Missionaries who have a vested interest in discrediting the Qur'an.

This is the reason that I claim that people who believe in the Resurrection would be offended. It comes from reading these online articles.

But again, nowhere in any of my research did any of the websites say that the Qur'an explicitly says that Allah was the deceiver in the Resurrection of Jesus.

Again, I am embarrassed. I was the one who put 2 and 2 together and added that up to 6. In my opinion this represents a gross error.

I very much appreciate your intervention and bringing my error to light.

Most Sincerely,

Daniel (dybmh)