Killer on death row is denied painless death by Supreme Court

[Twilight Hue]

I don't understand the opposition to a firing squad.
That would be my chosen way to go....instant & reliable.
If they didn't allow skydiving without a parachute.

I would go with something like The Dirty Dozen. Give them a suicide mission.

 

[columbus]

The death penalty, like any other form of punishment, was never meant to be a deterrent; it was meant to be justice.

What does "justice" mean in this sentence? Two wrongs make a right?

I see three possible reasons for punishment.
A) Vengeance.
B) Rehabilitation.
C) Protection of the public. Both deterrence and isolation.

Aside from Vengeance, I see little use for capital punishment. There are some people who could continue causing death and mayhem, even incarcerated. El Chapo comes to mind.
But mostly, locking people up is cheaper than providing adequate protection from wrongful execution. Execution isn't much of a deterrent, because most criminals don't think they'll get caught. Spending the resources on more effective policing will probably result in fewer innocent people dying than spending it on lawyers.

So I oppose capital punishment because I think it's almost entirely about vengeance, which I consider an ugly emotion.
Tom

 

[BSM1]

What does "justice" mean in this sentence? Two wrongs make a right?

I see three possible reasons for punishment.
A) Vengeance.
B) Rehabilitation.
C) Protection of the public. Both deterrence and isolation.

Aside from Vengeance, I see little use for capital punishment. There are some people who could continue causing death and mayhem, even incarcerated. El Chapo comes to mind.
But mostly, locking people up is cheaper than providing adequate protection from wrongful execution. Execution isn't much of a deterrent, because most criminals don't think they'll get caught. Spending the resources on more effective policing will probably result in fewer innocent people dying than spending it on lawyers.

So I oppose capital punishment because I think it's almost entirely about vengeance, which I consider an ugly emotion.
Tom

"Justice", when broken down to the lowest common denominator, means that if you heinously kill my child then it's proper that the state takes your life to keep me from killing you. I may not succeed, but you get the picture.

 

[columbus]

"Justice", when broken down to the lowest common denominator, means that if you heinously kill my child then it's proper that the state takes your life to keep me from killing you. I may not succeed, but you get the picture.

So, to you it's vengeance. State sponsored Vengeance.
I don't support that.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Tom

 

[BSM1]

So, to you it's vengeance. State sponsored Vengeance.
I don't support that.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Tom

Nope. Vengeance is me taking action; justice is the state taking the same action...legally.

 

[columbus]

Nope. Vengeance is me taking action; justice is the state taking the same action...legally.

I do see the difference between personal vengeance and state sanctioned vengeance.
But vengeance remains the primitive belief that two wrongs make a right.

As a modern person, with sophisticated ethics, I don't believe that two wrongs make a right. I want sophisticated methods for preventing wrongs, vengeance isn't one.
Tom

 

[BSM1]

I do see the difference between personal vengeance and state sanctioned vengeance.
But vengeance remains the primitive belief that two wrongs make a right.

As a modern person, with sophisticated ethics, I don't believe that two wrongs make a right. I want sophisticated methods for preventing wrongs, vengeance isn't one.
Tom

You see two wrongs, I only see one. Doesn't make either of us right (or wrong, for that matter). No matter where your sensibilities lie, the state does not invoke "vengeance", the state deals out justice. This is why we have a legal system instead of lynchings by a posse.

 

[columbus]

the state deals out justice.

You haven't described justice as anything more sophisticated than two wrongs making a right.
Tom

 

[Father Heathen]

But that is a false dichotomy. Whether there is a state death penalty or not innocent people die. And, yes, the death penalty does work as a deterrent. Your statement that the rest of the world has fewer murders is not factually correct.

I was referring to developed, first world nations.

No, it isn’t about enjoying the killing of innocents.

I meant a vengeance boner from execution in general.

 

[Stevicus]

Justice Ginsburg would agree.

“People who are well represented at trial do not get the death penalty,” said Justice Ginsburg. “I have yet to see a death case among the dozens coming to the Supreme Court on eve-of-execution stay applications in which the defendant was well represented at trial.”

I interpret this as meaning that justice is only for those who can afford it. But what is this really saying? To me, if a person is guilty, they're still just as guilty whether they're "well-represented" or if they have lousy attorney. It's the same if they're innocent.

But then, I would put some of that on the bar associations in this country and the legal profession itself. How can there be such disparity and deficiency within the same profession, and how can this apparent plethora of poorly trained and/or sub-standard attorneys go on practicing without someone in authority saying something?

And what are the judges doing in these cases? Just sitting up there, looking stupid? Even when they can see a mismatch in a case and a defendant whose life is in the hands of someone who got their degree out of a box of Cracker Jacks?

 

[BSM1]

You haven't described justice as anything more sophisticated than two wrongs making a right.
Tom

No offense, but just because you see it as a 'wrong' to execute someone doesn't make it so. The law says that in certain cases this right and proper, and we are a nation of laws. It's a slippery slope when we refuse to do what's legally required because it may offend someone's sensibilities. Don't like the law? Fine, work to change it. In the mean time I'm satisfied that justice, not vengeance, comes from a court of law.

 

[pearl]

And what are the judges doing in these cases? Just sitting up there, looking stupid? Even when they can see a mismatch in a case and a defendant whose life is in the hands of someone who got their degree out of a box of Cracker Jacks?

Its not their call unless proof exists that the defense was lax, ill prepared etc. I think what is referred by Justice Ginsburg is the lack of money a legal aide lawyer has at her/his disposal in preparing a defense. Not that the lawyer is not qualified. How often is it that a well trained layer remains with Legal Aid?

 

[Stevicus]

Its not their call unless proof exists that the defense was lax, ill prepared etc. I think what is referred by Justice Ginsburg is the lack of money a legal aide lawyer has at her/his disposal in preparing a defense. Not that the lawyer is not qualified. How often is it that a well trained layer remains with Legal Aid?

Well, if the system is broken (as Justice Ginsburg is implying), then I would say it's up to those who hold primary stewardship over that system to fix it. If they can't or won't fix it, then it's up to the other branches of government (or the people themselves) to fix it for them.

 

[Nakosis]

But that is a false dichotomy. Whether there is a state death penalty or not innocent people die. And, yes, the death penalty does work as a deterrent. Your statement that the rest of the world has fewer murders is not factually correct.

No, it isn’t about enjoying the killing of innocents, just the opposite. It is recognizing that ultimately fewer innocent people die with a state death penalty, if done well, than without one.

“The committee concludes that research to date on the effect of capital punishment on homicide is not informative about whether capital punishment decreases, increases, or has no effect on homicide rates. Therefore, the committee recommends that these studies not be used to inform deliberations requiring judgments about the effect of the death penalty on homicide.
Facts about Deterrence and the Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center

Maybe the site is biased, but I tend to doubt that people in the process of committing a capitol take into consideration the death penalty. People act out of anger of act with the idea that they'll get away with it.

If a lifetime sentence is not enough of a deterrent I doubt the death penalty is going to really tip the scales much.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm fine the death penalty in principle. Some people are just monsters who should be removed from the earth. However, the US criminal "justice" system is extremely broken and corrupt. Obviously minorities and the poor are oppressed by it while those with power (money and social ties) just away with worse crimes. So that needs to be fixed. There will be real justice when people like Bernie Madoff are executed.

But as for the method, I do believe that it should be humane and cause the least amount of suffering as possible. Otherwise, it's just sadism and that can just be gross.

 

[Twilight Hue]

So, to you it's vengeance. State sponsored Vengeance.
I don't support that.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Tom

If the ideals portrayed in movies are correct, almost everybody cheers for the death of the villain at the end.