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Conversing with religious fundamentalists
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
Technically the experience would be considered an hallucination rather than a delusion. Mystical experiences are possible and my acquaintance may have been speaking metaphorically. It doesn't matter me what his experience actually was as it was for him and him alone. Clearly it marked the turning point in his life from being an atheist to being a believer. No psychiatrist would be interested in diagnosing him. I practised psychiatry for many years so I'm familiar with the application of DSM classification of mental disorders to peoples experiences.
Shad
Veteran Member
Seems to be both
Sure it is possible by stretching the use of the word to the point of absurdity.
I was taking the comment as non-metaphorical
Sure as religion gets a pass.
K
How can we explain some things in life?
I personally had a very vivid dream of Abdul'baha standing above me on some steps to a building with columns and doors behind him. I was so happy in my dream to see him, but as as I walked up the stairs he dissapeared to the right and I continued to the left to then talk with quite a few people.
I told my friend and my wife about such a happy dream.
Some.time after we decided to go on pilgrimage to Haifa and that process takes a little over a year from application to realisation. A few months before we were due to go, a friend recommended a book about Baha'i Holy places to read, which I purchased and read. Half way through I turned a page and there was the vision of my dream in a photo I had not yet seen before. But there was more, the next page told me that Abdul'baha passed away in the room on the right, the direction he had gone in my dream and He used to greet all the pilgrims on the room to the left, where I went and met people in my dream.
3 months later I was in both those rooms thanking God for such a wonderful dream that in the end was reality.
What can I be diagnosed as.
Yes Happy, Happy, Happy, full of joy!Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Supposing there is one truth and some person had that truth, it would be nice of them to tell others that were wandering around in spiritual darkness and get them to see the light. However, many religions and many spiritual people believe they have found the truth. And, it's a truth that works for them and that they can believe in. They read the Scriptures and learn from people that have studied those Scriptures and become more secure in "knowing" what they believe is true. Then, a Fundamentalist from another religion tells them that most everything they believe is wrong. But who here on this thread believes a Fundamentalist of any religion has the truth?
At least, the Baha'is believe that at one time the major religions did have the truth. Problem is, Baha'is don't believe they still have the truth. But that is way better than a Fundy Christian. They don't mind telling you how blind, lost and deluded you are for following any religion that doesn't believe Jesus is the one and only way. And then, even if you do believe in Jesus, they still might think your beliefs are false.
siti
Well-Known Member
So the Christians assert the literal Sonship of Christ, the Muslims rejects it outright, Shoghi pretends to believe both at the same time by suggesting that neither really meant what they said - and you follow Shoghi's example of disingenuity by pretending that you agree with a fundamentalist Christian whom you know very well does not share your interpretation.
So, essentially, you are advocating dishonesty in religious discourse - aren't you? How else would you characterize it? "Interfaith"? No wonder the fundies don't want in on that? They'd never know whether you were trying to pull another fast one on them would they?
If you played golf that just went out of bounds,
or you missed a one foot put and put it off the green.Missed the point entirely.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Did you have that beer? Feel better now? I had to do three shots of tequila. But, I'm better now.
siti
Well-Known Member
You did indeed Tony - as ever!
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
That's exactly right. If there is a God and he told people what they should do and what they should believe, then we should believe it wholeheartedly. But, who believes their religion wholeheartedly these days? Literal beliefs in things in the Bible are seen as being extreme. So what do you do with people that believe in Jesus but not in a 6 day Creation or the Flood or any of the other things in the Bible? Then, once a person starts compromising their beliefs, where will it stop? Then, like on this thread, what if one person is a Baha'i and another a born again Christian? Who's going to compromise their beliefs to get along with the other? Maybe the Baha'i? But how far will they be willing to go? At some point they have to stand firm and tell the Christian that Baha'is believe Christ has already returned. Then what? Ain't too many Christians going to let that one go.@adrian009 To answer this question I first had to get an accurate definition of the term.
"The word fundamentalist is used most often to talk about religion. As an adjective, it describes a very strict, literal interpretation of a religious text or set of beliefs, and the noun means a person who holds those firm, often extreme, beliefs." (Google)
On that basis we have to ask...."what is the point of having beliefs that you don't uphold wholeheartedly"?
If one is a Bible believer and hence a believer in its author as the Creator of all things, why would anyone doubt what it says, regardless of what others think?
From the Christian perspective, Jesus said that we must 'love God with all that we are, and to love our neighbor as ourselves'. God and the Bible are inseparable to us...or they should be. A half-hearted excursion into anything produces no commitment....no one can respect a person whose beliefs are 'wishy-washy' and may be swayed by the least whim or fancy (James 1:5-8).......on the other end of that spectrum however, is an overzealous attitude that tries to force extreme beliefs on others under threat of damnation.
Taking Jesus as our exemplar, we see that he offered his teachings to people on a "take it or leave it" basis. Belief is personal and should be left up to individual hearts.....but at the same time our choices should be informed ones....that includes being mindful of the consequences of our choices.
Paul said at Romans 10:13-15..."However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”
Remember that Jesus' apostles preached to their fellow Jews exclusively at first, so it wasn't like their countrymen had no knowledge of God....it was because their religious leaders had taken them so far off track that the Jewish system no longer led anyone to God. Jesus was sent to show the "lost sheep" the way out of that corrupted system....into a new pen, with a new Shepherd, and a new covenant.
From my own experience, having studied the Bible and engaging in this work commanded by Jesus for most of my life, I find that when the Bible is being literal, and when it is being figurative or metaphorical, the context is what allows the reader to distinguish between the two. Those who have a thorough knowledge of the Bible have no difficulty distinguishing between them. Understanding original language words clarifies translation and identifies bias in translation.
JW's are often accused of being Fundamentalists, but we are just dedicated servants of our God and his son, fulfilling our commission to preach Christ's message to those who want to hear it. (Matthew 28:19-20)
If that is fundamentalism...then guilty as charged. I have had wonderful conversations with people of many different faiths in my ministry. No one is forced to accept our message but many have commended us for the fact that we are out there doing it when most others are not. One can understand how difficult it is when others have opted not to engage in it. (Matthew 10:11-15) Christ said he would back this work.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
And what's the Baha'i point? That religions contradict each other? Therefore, it's all symbolic?
siti
Well-Known Member
Figuratively speaking - yes!
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Yes I do.
Galatians 1:6-8 New Living Translation (NLT)
I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who called you to himself through the loving mercy of Christ. You are following a different way that pretends to be the Good News but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who deliberately twist the truth concerning Christ.
Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you.
2 Peter 3:15-17 New Living Translation (NLT)
And remember, our Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him— speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.
You already know these things, dear friends. So be on guard; then you will not be carried away by the errors of these wicked people and lose your own secure footing.
Tell me what comes in your mind when you read this:
Matthew 24:26 New Living Translation (NLT)
“So if someone tells you, ‘Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,’ don’t bother to go and look. Or, ‘Look, he is hiding here,’ don’t believe it!
Should you believe it? Matthew 24:23; [URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+13:21&version=NLT']Mark 13:21[/URL]
Luke 17:23 New Living Translation (NLT)
People will tell you, ‘Look, there is the Son of Man,’ or ‘Here he is,’ but don’t go out and follow them.
This doesn't apply to liberals who uphold their sincerely held beleifs wholeheartedly, for example - the sincerely held belief that marriage equality applies to gay people
How many liberals have you met that were able to be swayed away from their belief in marriage equality at the "least whim or fancy"? Clearly you are just constructing a strawman here, yet speaking for myslef I can say we are not all too blind to see that liberals have deeply held convictions wholeheartedly and are not "wishy washy" in their beliefs.
I can vouch for the fact that JW's do.
It's one of the reasons that drew me to them. Their beliefs differed from the mainstream churches, but they were not extreme and 100% Bible based.....and everyone accepted them. No disputes, no dissent.I don't do anything but try to explain what I believe and why I believe it...the rest is up to them and God.
The apostle John wrote..."No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him..." (John 6:44)
Paul also wrote...."I planted, A·polʹlos watered, but God kept making it grow, 7 so that neither is the one who plants anything nor is the one who waters, but God who makes it grow. 8 Now the one who plants and the one who waters are one, but each person will receive his own reward according to his own work. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field under cultivation, God’s building." (1 Corinthians 3:6-9)
So unless God makes the seed of truth grow in a person's heart, they will never know the truth, and will continue on in their chosen delusion.
Don't you see...it doesn't matter. It is God who chooses us more than we are choosing him. If no one will know the truth unless God reveals it, then we are just ranting on trying to convince others about something that is not even true. Unless we have a love for the truth, a love for God and a true understanding of his purpose and our place in it....we are just talking into the air.
As Paul stated...."But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
We have some who have rely on miracles, signs and wonders....but these are no guarantee that God is involved.....just the opposite in fact. Those who are happy in their delusion will be allowed to keep believing it. By their choices, they are telling God a great deal about themselves. Someone who is deluded is not aware of it.
God is having the message about his Kingdom "preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations", before He brings an end to this world filled with religious falsehood. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 13:9 Matthew 7:21-23)
I believe that we will not have to wait too much longer....
Here is another definition that is similar:
Definition of fundamentalism
1a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching
b : the beliefs of this movement
c : adherence to such beliefs a minister noted for his strict fundamentalism
2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles
Islamic fundamentalism
political fundamentalism
Definition of FUNDAMENTALISM
So it can refer specifically to Christian fundamentalism where the Bible is interpreted literally and that is fundamental the Christian way of life. The word fundamentalism can be used more generally applied to other religions such as Islam or beyond that political movements.
The reference to twentieth century Protestantism is very relevant here as it is applicable to both my acquaintances beliefs and the Jehovah Witnesses belief. Interestingly, although both these belief systems could rightly be described as fundamentalist, both would reject the other outright. See the problem?
The issue isn't about whether or not we apply principles from our respective faiths wholeheartedly. Rather its about how we arrive at such beliefs in the first place.
If one is a Bible believer and hence a believer in its author as the Creator of all things, why would anyone doubt what it says, regardless of what others think?
Its not so much doubting what it says, as doubting what it means. Christianity has thousands of different sects. Most would see the Bible as authoritative and authentic. Most would also disagree with the interpretation of a sizebale number of believers within differing sects. So Christianity has developed a kind of tribalism where many sects not only see themselves possessing the one truth compared to other religions, but also compared to other groups within Christendom. Consequently, Christianity as a whole looks contradictory, weak and divided.
I agree with much of this.
Early Christianity relied to a large extent on outstanding orators or preachers like Paul. This tradition remains very important to my acquiantance who upholds Billy Graham as the standard bearer of the Christian Faith. The Mega-Churches take this approach too. What is required now are more participatory approaches that empower people at the grass roots. Christianity is now rapidly losing ground in the West.
What worked two thousand years ago is not necessarily applicable today and that is the whole problem with Biblical literalism. The world has changed and Christanity is confused and in disarray. Many Christians often struggle to have the world embracing view required for the current age.
The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 213
So as Jesus enabled His followers to build on what had gone on before and established a new Covenant, so the Baha'i Faith builds on religious traditions of the past. Baha'u'llah has reframed the message of the Prophets of Old and adapted it for our current age.
Therein lies another problem. Other Christians will make the similar claims to have studied the Bible for years, yet come to very different conclusions.
What sets the JWs apart from other Christians is their insistence on being the sole possessor and arbitrator of religious truth.
Over the last two years I have seen you make better attempts to engage with those of different faiths and that is a positive thing. I do think you struggle to properly appreciate and understand other religions and in that regard your JW faith does you a disservice.
Ah another one that missed post #2 on this thread. What survey have you undertaken to determine that liberals are motivated by popularity, because I have done it for liberal Muslims, and most of them are not motivated by popularity but by deeply held convictions.
Are "progressive" Muslims progressive for reasons of popularity? : progressive_islam
The Bible's teachings are clear on that issue. Quite simply, there is no God-approved "marriage" for same sex couples. Having beliefs "sincerely held" means nothing if those beliefs are out of harmony with God's laws....regardless of public opinion. Why do you think he had to make the laws in the first place? So many of those laws pertained to sexual morality. Marriage is God's arrangement, not man's. We have no authority to dictate to God how his laws are to be implemented. Nor are we authorized to break God's laws because we we find them inconvenient.
Who are these liberals? I have no idea what you are talking about.
We are all making decisions every day about our worship. Even those who express no belief in God still have beliefs about many things. When we choose the belief....we choose the reaction from God that goes with that belief....like it or not. We argue with the Almighty at our own peril.....
Kangaroo Feathers
Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
I'm not having this argument with you. The contradictions are unquestionably there. How you fit them into your faith journey is up to you.
How can we explain some things in life?
I personally had a very vivid dream of Abdul'baha standing above me on some steps to a building with columns and doors behind him. I was so happy in my dream to see him, but as as I walked up the stairs he dissapeared to the right and I continued to the left to then talk with quite a few people.
I told my friend and my wife about such a happy dream.
Some.time after we decided to go on pilgrimage to Haifa and that process takes a little over a year from application to realisation. A few months before we were due to go, a friend recommended a book about Baha'i Holy places to read, which I purchased and read. Half way through I turned a page and there was the vision of my dream in a photo I had not yet seen before. But there was more, the next page told me that Abdul'baha passed away in the room on the right, the direction he had gone in my dream and He used to greet all the pilgrims on the room to the left, where I went and met people in my dream.
3 months later I was in both those rooms thanking God for such a wonderful dream that in the end was reality.
What can I be diagnosed as.
Regards Tony
I've had an experience of visitation from Baha'u'llah when I read the tablet of visitation around the time I became a Baha'i. Later I had dreams with both Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha.
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts of the Apostles 2:16-17